I bring this topic up here because Target Sprint is similar to Biathlon. I am not a fan of it, but...
The way I read the rules, in a shooting stage you have 5 targets, and you have 15 rounds to make them otherwise you will incur a time penalty. Fine.
But this part I do not get: It demands that the shooter has to single load. No semi automatic or something similar. But ISSF designates the summer biathlon rifles for target sprint, so the Steyr LGB1, FWB P75, and Airarms, are the typical choices. Now, Anschutz also produces the 9015 with a fake Fortner lever (with no magazine that I know of) . Walther does not even bother to pretend. It offers a LG400 Target Sprint. The only difference between this model and the regular one is that they put in a piece of plastic so that you can stick your pellets on it. Complete waste of money. You can scotch tape your pellets and it will be so much cheaper.
It makes NO SENSE. Because if you have to single load it. why do you need a biathlon type rifle (5 shots)? Why cannot you just grab a regular Walther LG400, which I am sure do a better job? Also, you are not losing much time concerning loading. If you have a Steyr, you have to put one round in the magazine, then load the magazine, then pull the trigger, then eject the magazine and do it again... I cannot possibly imagine using a regular single shot air rifle would be slower in terms of loading. There is no magazine.
The ISSF seem to also want the air rifle to resemble some sort of Fortner action. But what is the point if you are only doing single shots????
Oh, it is *painful* to watch a target sprint event. Perhaps someone should inform all the pentathletes...I am sure they would have no problem because their organization has contaminated their own sport by essentially merging the running and shooting events together. Yes we all know that it went from shooting 1911 to lasertag nowadays. Coubertin must have wished he has never invented that sport....
ISSF always love to go against "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". Nothing changes.
The logic of Target Sprint
Moderators: pilkguns, m1963, Craig1956
Re: The logic of Target Sprint
I happen to love Target Sprint, the only painful thing is not seeing it enough.
Ok, a few observations.
1) ISSF views this as summer Biathlon, as such, attempting to maintain rifle commonality makes sense.
2) Target Sprint is also sanctioned by CMP that uses Crosman Challengers.
3) Target Sprint under whatever conditions it is run, is still so small that a lot of individualism exists
one venue to the next.
4) Target sprint will get more organized as more play the game and will undoubtedly be a bit different from todays event.
Bitching about the minutiae of an event just being put together is worse than counterproductive.
Perhaps you might consider that when you are whining about equipment choices when the evolution is still underway.
Give it time, constructively support it, see where it go's and provide help when it needs it. My God Man, if you raised a kid,
you would probably complain about it randomly crapping and pissing everywhere completely oblivious to the fact that it gets so
much better when it grows up and finds its way...........
Ok, a few observations.
1) ISSF views this as summer Biathlon, as such, attempting to maintain rifle commonality makes sense.
2) Target Sprint is also sanctioned by CMP that uses Crosman Challengers.
3) Target Sprint under whatever conditions it is run, is still so small that a lot of individualism exists
one venue to the next.
4) Target sprint will get more organized as more play the game and will undoubtedly be a bit different from todays event.
Bitching about the minutiae of an event just being put together is worse than counterproductive.
Perhaps you might consider that when you are whining about equipment choices when the evolution is still underway.
Give it time, constructively support it, see where it go's and provide help when it needs it. My God Man, if you raised a kid,
you would probably complain about it randomly crapping and pissing everywhere completely oblivious to the fact that it gets so
much better when it grows up and finds its way...........
Re: The logic of Target Sprint
I just do not understand the logic about the rifle choice. It sounds like it is an opportunity to make more money for the manufacturers to make a rifle that there is no need to do so. This has nothing to do with the actual athletic part of the sport. When I mention pentathlon it was because I fear target sprint is going to end up like pentathlon. Watching the sport of pentathlon just does not excite me anymore, as opposed to just seeing pictures of Patton and other soviet athlete shooting center fire pistols, that was another world.
So, nobody has answered the key of my question: why make target sprint version of rifles when there is no need to do so, after all you do not need to carry it while running.
Oh, yes, I watch the youtube videos, so I am not totally ignorant, I am just used to put my foot in my mouth...all of you know that about me.
Oh btw, if I were not interested in this event I would have never posted anything. I am interested ENOUGH to purchase a Ahg-Anschutz diabolo holder for my Steyr. I am still waiting for it to arrive.
So, nobody has answered the key of my question: why make target sprint version of rifles when there is no need to do so, after all you do not need to carry it while running.
Oh, yes, I watch the youtube videos, so I am not totally ignorant, I am just used to put my foot in my mouth...all of you know that about me.
Oh btw, if I were not interested in this event I would have never posted anything. I am interested ENOUGH to purchase a Ahg-Anschutz diabolo holder for my Steyr. I am still waiting for it to arrive.
Re: The logic of Target Sprint
Target Sprint rifles made to function exactly like biathlon rifles exist because a biathlon shooter crossing over into the sport cannot shoot his her smallbore rifle. They establish training commonality. THAT is simple. We get it........ Its a PRACTICE GUN for the winter sport. The rules requiring single load is there to make entry to the sport simple. Single load rifles allow organisers an opportunity to level the field for all the rnners.
Re: The logic of Target Sprint
I understand that. But it still does not explain why vast majority of the rifles have some form of "Fortner" action. After all you still have to hand load.
1. (get a pellet from the pellet holder pad > open the chamber by pulling the champ lever> put the pellet into the chamber > close the lever > pull the trigger...)X 5.
2. (get a pellet from the pellet holder pad > put the pellet into the single shot magazine > insert single shot magazine into the chamber > pull the (whatever fortner like) lever > pull the trigger > pull the lever again > eject the magazine ) X 5.
3. get five pellets from the pellet holder pad> put the pellets into the five shot magazine > pull the fortner like action lever, insert the five shot magazine into the chamber > ( pull fortner like lever > pull the trigger X 5)
4. Pull multiple pellets and insert them into multiple five shot magazines before the shooting stage>put the magazines back to the magazine holder for safety reason >after the running stage insert one five shot magazine into the chamber> (pull fortner like lever > pull the trigger X 5)
5. Put multiple pellets and insert them into multiple single shot magazines before the shooting stage > put the magazines back to the magazine holder for safety reason> (I have modified my LGBT-1 to hold 16 magazines)>similar to #4.
Why not #1, as opposed to many who use #2? This only apply to LGB-1 and P75, especially 4 & 5. The only advantage of 2 over 1 is if the race is running under wet condition.
I know it is a practice rifle for Biathlon, but also use for paralympics biathlon, and IIRC it is also for Youth/Junior Olympics right?
1. (get a pellet from the pellet holder pad > open the chamber by pulling the champ lever> put the pellet into the chamber > close the lever > pull the trigger...)X 5.
2. (get a pellet from the pellet holder pad > put the pellet into the single shot magazine > insert single shot magazine into the chamber > pull the (whatever fortner like) lever > pull the trigger > pull the lever again > eject the magazine ) X 5.
3. get five pellets from the pellet holder pad> put the pellets into the five shot magazine > pull the fortner like action lever, insert the five shot magazine into the chamber > ( pull fortner like lever > pull the trigger X 5)
4. Pull multiple pellets and insert them into multiple five shot magazines before the shooting stage>put the magazines back to the magazine holder for safety reason >after the running stage insert one five shot magazine into the chamber> (pull fortner like lever > pull the trigger X 5)
5. Put multiple pellets and insert them into multiple single shot magazines before the shooting stage > put the magazines back to the magazine holder for safety reason> (I have modified my LGBT-1 to hold 16 magazines)>similar to #4.
Why not #1, as opposed to many who use #2? This only apply to LGB-1 and P75, especially 4 & 5. The only advantage of 2 over 1 is if the race is running under wet condition.
I know it is a practice rifle for Biathlon, but also use for paralympics biathlon, and IIRC it is also for Youth/Junior Olympics right?
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ASCBiathlon
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Re: The logic of Target Sprint
We run an air rifle Biathlon with Zbroia and FX air Biathlon rifles.
5 shot magazine. We are preparing athletes to move to 22lr Biathlon.
Our rules and procedures are Biathlon based
I would assume that since Target Sprint is trying to simulate Biathlon they will change to the 5 round magazine.
If you are trying to simulate Biathlon you need to know how to bolt and fire 5 consecutive rounds
It helps develop juniors and beginners so they can progress in the winter.
5 shot magazine. We are preparing athletes to move to 22lr Biathlon.
Our rules and procedures are Biathlon based
I would assume that since Target Sprint is trying to simulate Biathlon they will change to the 5 round magazine.
If you are trying to simulate Biathlon you need to know how to bolt and fire 5 consecutive rounds
It helps develop juniors and beginners so they can progress in the winter.
Re: The logic of Target Sprint
I assume single loading is required because it makes it more of a penalty to miss.
It used to be that misses added a time penalty in Biathlon. This made it hard for spectators to know who was really ahead because a person might finish 3 seconds ahead, but have 5 penalty seconds so they are not the winner. This was OK until real time TV coverage.
Then they added penalty loops, so each miss meant more distance had to be covered so the first person across the line wins. I am not sure why people don't like this. I love it. How terrible must it be to have to turn off the course and do an extra 200m while your competitor skis away.
Given that uninformed viewers didn't understand the penalty loop they added extra shots that had to be hand loaded. The first 5 shots are magazine loaded then the extra shots are hand loaded, so each extra shot adds a few seconds.
I can't give you a good reason why all shots need to the single loaded, except that it adds some jeopardy. A competitor will load as fast as they can, but if the go too fast and make a mistake, mis-loading or dropping the pellet, then there is a penalty for going too fast or being less precise.
It used to be that misses added a time penalty in Biathlon. This made it hard for spectators to know who was really ahead because a person might finish 3 seconds ahead, but have 5 penalty seconds so they are not the winner. This was OK until real time TV coverage.
Then they added penalty loops, so each miss meant more distance had to be covered so the first person across the line wins. I am not sure why people don't like this. I love it. How terrible must it be to have to turn off the course and do an extra 200m while your competitor skis away.
Given that uninformed viewers didn't understand the penalty loop they added extra shots that had to be hand loaded. The first 5 shots are magazine loaded then the extra shots are hand loaded, so each extra shot adds a few seconds.
I can't give you a good reason why all shots need to the single loaded, except that it adds some jeopardy. A competitor will load as fast as they can, but if the go too fast and make a mistake, mis-loading or dropping the pellet, then there is a penalty for going too fast or being less precise.
Re: The logic of Target Sprint
They really need to use the penalty loop in all competitions instead of time penalty. The question however will be, is 150m a good distance, or maybe another distance? I also do support retaining two rounds for spare and must be hand loaded.
I do not know how to ski. But I did have a IZH and a Steyr. Now I am pondering should I get the p75.
I do not know how to ski. But I did have a IZH and a Steyr. Now I am pondering should I get the p75.
Re: The logic of Target Sprint
I compete in Target Sprint, member @ Sedgemoor TS club at Yate Outdoor Arena Nr. Bristolspektr wrote: ↑Sat Jul 10, 2021 9:35 am I happen to love Target Sprint, the only painful thing is not seeing it enough.
Ok, a few observations.
1) ISSF views this as summer Biathlon, as such, attempting to maintain rifle commonality makes sense.
2) Target Sprint is also sanctioned by CMP that uses Crosman Challengers.
3) Target Sprint under whatever conditions it is run, is still so small that a lot of individualism exists
one venue to the next.
4) Target sprint will get more organized as more play the game and will undoubtedly be a bit different from todays event.
Bitching about the minutiae of an event just being put together is worse than counterproductive.
Perhaps you might consider that when you are whining about equipment choices when the evolution is still underway.
Give it time, constructively support it, see where it go's and provide help when it needs it. My God Man, if you raised a kid,
you would probably complain about it randomly crapping and pissing everywhere completely oblivious to the fact that it gets so
much better when it grows up and finds its way...........
Its a great blend of athletics + basic match shooting
If you take 15 shots and have not knocked down the 5 x 35mm 0r 49.5mm discs you can be instructed to 'Run' by the shooting director, it has not happened to me but Ive seen it happen
Shooting at 5 targets after running around the 400 metre track is quite a challenge for me RE breathing! There is also the weather to consider, wind and rain can be present
Sedgemoor is the only really dedicated hub and has produced the majority of high level athletes. I'm 61 and I would say the average competitor age is sub 21 at the moment but they are very welcoming there!