Older Tier 1 SSP and CA/PCP Rifles?

[adv_rider]

Hello All,

I'm an avid marksman (currently shoot bullseye pistol/service rifle and as a jr I competed in 3p smallbore/standing air rifle/olympic archery) and I'm contemplating getting a used tier 1 air rifle. Long story short I don't think I will continue to invest in centerfire/rimfire considering ammo shortages, more annoying gun laws, and fewer places to shoot. In 2019 I shot upwards of 20k rounds, and I just don't think that type of volume is going to be sustainable over the next 5, 10, or 20 years.

I shot competition air rifle in high school (late 90's) and used either a 2001 or 2002 superair SSP. I thought it was amazing. CA/PCP wasn't on the local scene yet so I am rather unfamiliar with the maintenance and operating costs of these 'newer' power plants. Cutting to the chase I'm trying to figure out what air rifle platforms to start looking at. I would be shooting for personal improvement/growth over competition, so I am not going to buy a brand new top of the line Anschutz. I have pretty decent ability, so an older (and still maintainable) tier 1 rifle would keep me busy a real long time.

An older tier 1 SSP (2001/2002 Superair, FWB 601/602, and some Walthers) look to pop up from time to time for ~700 or so. Obviously a SSP is limited to offhand.

As for CA/PCPs, I'm unsure what older CA/PCP models to look at and the prices they fetch. As mentioned earlier I'm also not very familiar with associated CA/PCP maintenance and costs. Since I would be doing this on my own and not have club infrastructure, there appear to be a lot of additional expenses (getting a main fill tank, main fill tank periodic hydro&cert, main tank fillings, and replacement of the air rifle cylinder every 10+ years). However maybe all that isn't needed or there is a smarter way to do it?

I'd prefer to practice 3 position, but if the costs of a CA/PCP+kit are 2x-3x the cost of of a nice SSP I'd have to do some thinking...
I'd appreciate it if people could weigh in on rifle models to consider, expected maintenance costs, and (CA/PCP) operating costs. Before jumping into something new I want to know what I'm in for.

Thank you in advance for any help/comments

[Rover]

Consider CO2.

[spektr]

This is a fun subject......
1) tanks. 10 years is a long time. My tanks are under $200 to replace. Im not there yet. Thats cheap.
2) a used scuba with fresh tests is 80 bucks or so in my local area.... Scuba tank maintenance is roughly 30 bucks when it needs a hydrostatic test, i think thats every 3 years. The annual visual inspections are 19 bucks. An 80 foot tank lasts a long time between fills which are 10 bucks at my local dive shop. If you fill it back up the month the inspections are due it will need to be inspected at the next fill, giving you months more use and they reset the dates and give you a whole year from the date they inspect it.....

3) Im lazy, an SSP rifle is not for me. Id rather get tired shooting the gun instead of pumping it up.

I look at the new vs used prices for PCP air rifles and see the new guns can be much more adjustable. If you understand how to fit a gun to you, look at the new generation guns. I shoot an FWB 800x and if you cannot adjust this gun for a perfect fir, you are not human. Other manufacturers do the same.... There doesnt seem to be, in my mind anyway, enough of an asking price difference between new and used to not reach dor the new gun......

There is a wild card in all this. Its the Crosman Challenger. Brand new they are 800 ish I think. They shoot so much better than they have a right to and truthfully outshoot most mere mortals. That may be right up your alley if you cant swing the PCP olympic rifle prices. They call it a sporter rifle But I have had my head handed to me by a 4h kid who giggled at me while she kicked my butt. It will shoot Xs if you do your part. Its a PCP gun so the tanks are the same as more expensive guns

I hope this helps

[stephen_maly]

For what it is worth, the old Feinwerkbau 300S rifles (and perhaps Anschutz 380's) are the easiest to cock in three positions. They are not quite as precise as the good SSP's or PCP's, but they require little maintenance, and many of the necessary parts are still available.

[adv_rider]

Hi Rover - what is the advantage of CO2? Is it just these rifles are less popular and go for less? I understand that temperature *may* be a factor with C02, but I don't think that would be an issue for me. This weekend I was reading several older threads and C02 was mentioned, however some internet searching only turned up one model: FWB C60. There are probably others, but it is a little tough to find out what models were offered in the past.

It is my understanding that C02 will require the same tank and fill components as CA/PCP. I guess on the upside I could likely use any CO2 fill equipment for homebrew which I am planning to get back into sometime in the future as well.

[adv_rider]

Spektr - what size fill tank do you have? The tank/fill aspect is what I'm most unfamiliar with. Is there a particular fill tank size that is pretty standard? Seems some people just use SCUBA tanks, but I can't say I'm any more familiar with that equipment!

For high pressure fill tanks it seems there is the hydro cert (seems good for multiple years), a yearly visual inspection, plus fill costs. I assume some places may offer an exchange program, while other outfits will not.

From some reading I did it sounds like the rifle cylinder can be filled pretty much directly from the fill tank assuming you have the right nozzle type on the fill tank.

Then there is the cylinder on the rifle which seems to be good for competition for 10 years after its birth date. Although there seems to be a lot of debate how safe they are to use after that outside of competition...

Sounds about right? Thanks for the tips.

[adv_rider]

Not sure I would consider an older springer at this point. I have shot them and I really didn't care for the feel. I'm about 40 and whatever air rifle I'm going to get is probably going to be "the" air rifle for me for quite a long time. Things can always change in the future and I may find something I love more than target practice, but at the moment I'm sticking to SSP and newer. Really SSP probably only makes my list since I used one as a Jr and thought it was wonderful - so there is definitely some nostalgia at play.

[spektr]

I have 2 tanks. An 80 foot scuba tank, and a 20 pound CO2 tank.

CO2 tanks have no maintenance fees or intervals that are my responsibility. A refill is a tank exchange and I pay the cost of contents. It will be years until I do that.

SCUBA TANKS ARE SIMPLE, LETS NOT OVERTHINK IT.
I own an 80 foot Scuba Tank. A very common size, nothing exotic. My guns (rifles and pistols) came with an adapter that connects to the industry standard scuba tank valve and I screw my gun tank into it. I open the scuba tank valve and the tanks equalize pressure, close the valve and you are done. Thats it. Each time you fill the gun tank, the scuba tank pressure drops a bit until you get to where you don't like the number of shots you are getting. Then you haul the tank to the dive shop, they fill it up and you shoot a lot more. Scuba tanks are not exchanged, just refilled. Its SIMPLE and even a cave man (OR Rover) can do it......

PCP or CO2 guns are so much less labor intensive than SSP guns. I don't have a CO2 rifle, But I have a soft spot for older match C02 pistols. PCP rifles are my choice, but a cool CO2 rifle wouldn't be turned down If it showed up. If I were you, go find a PCP rifle and enjoy it.

[Rover]

Hi Rover - what is the advantage of CO2? Is it just these rifles are less popular and go for less? I understand that temperature *may* be a factor with C02, but I don't think that would be an issue for me. This weekend I was reading several older threads and C02 was mentioned, however some internet searching only turned up one model: FWB C60. There are probably others, but it is a little tough to find out what models were offered in the past.

It is my understanding that C02 will require the same tank and fill components as CA/PCP. I guess on the upside I could likely use any CO2 fill equipment for homebrew which I am planning to get back into sometime in the future as well.

A double win for you! Actually, you CAN find the CO2 guns cheap. You go to a welding supply place and get a CO2 tank. When it's empty (WAY more shots than CA) take it back and they'll give you a full one. No tests, no gauges, no inspections, no nuthin'. You take your cylinder, put it in the freezer for five minutes, then fill it. That's it. Never mind all the weighing, fondling, holding the mouth right, that many enjoy. If you can get a tank with a siphon, it IS easier because you don't have to turn the tank upside down (you ARE dealing with a liquid). The whole business is safer than CA.

BTW Use the advanced search function (top right of page) and you'll find more than you'll ever want to know.

[adv_rider]

All and all a rather good diversity of opinions. Seems that the main obstacle for C02 is finding a rifle with that power plant. While I'd hesitate to say I've done extensive research, I've only turned up the FWB C60/C62 and Steyr Match 91 as CO2 precision models. Not to say there aren't more, but CO2 rifles seem to be quite in the minority. Pros with CO2 seem to be you can probably get your tank filled at a wielding gas supply shop, gas distributor, or maybe even homebrew store. Seems some models are much more temp sensitive than others.

As for CA/PCP I currently I live in the greater Washington DC area, so access to say a scuba shop isn't that hard if CA/PCP is the way I end up going. However I'm looking to move into a much more rural area in the next ~5 or so years so understanding were to get air may(?) be a bit more of a challenge. I'm not sure what industries use high pressure compressed air outside of paintball/air rifle/scuba. There are probably a few different alternative fill sources, but it's just something to figure out before seriously thinking about CA/PCP.

The effort with the SSP doesn't bother me, it's just that I'd be limited to offhand. Not a bad thing if expectations are in order.

Thank you all for the info. It helps me figure out really what equipment, costs, and care/feeding each powerplant needs.

[GaryN]

I've shot a co2 AP for years, with no problem.
I know co2 has issues with temp, but I've shot from the mid-40s up to about 105 or 110F, with no problem.
On the low end, it was my finger that gave up first. It was so cold that my finger started losing feel of the trigger. I decided that was not a good situation, and stopped.
I shoot a Walther CPM1. Maybe that AP is more forgiving of the ends of the temp range.
You should ask people with specific experience with those co2 ARs.

As for the co2 tank.
You need to get LIQUID co2 out of the tank into your gun's cylinder. That means either a syphon in the tank (not easy to find on exchange tanks, so I own my tank) or you turn the tank upside down. I have a 10 pound tank that I used for my aquarium, and that is the limit of what I would hold upside down. I feel better limiting inverting to a 5 pound tank. For me, the larger tanks need a cradle, to hold the inverted tank stable and safe.
Just for you, one person, a 5 pound tank will probably last you several/many months of shooting.

As for CA
I've read of some people getting their tanks filled at a fire station. This obviously depends on the specific station; rules, policy, etc.
But you still have to find some place to do the hydro test.

The simplest and most expensive is to buy a compressor.

[adv_rider]

Fire stations by me don't seem to offer hpa. I think it is a liability thing (when you live in the DMV pretty much everything is a liability thing). That said there are a couple scuba shops, paintball fields, and gas supply companies in the area. I'm sure one is a viable option if i end up going CA.

On a different tangent is there an annual cycle when used gear comes on the market?

[spektr]

Respectfully.
The used gear story is a lot like the used PCP gun story. There doesn't seem to be
a significant difference in the price of the gear, unless the gear is real rough.
PCP gun needs an air source.
A CO2 gun needs an "air" source.
PCP scuba tank maintenance costs me 20 bucks a year average + filling costs.
CO2 has no annual maintenance costs but a 15 year requal timeline. so I dont worry about it.
There are small air compressors that will fill your gun that are coming to market in the sub 500 range.

If you are going to shoot PCP guns, its inexpensive no matter which way you go. Some ways might be marginally
more complicated than other ways, but shooting anything will always require ammunition. I would suggest that
new gear de-complicates the experience. But thats me...... In any case do what you enjoy.

[adv_rider]

Hi Spektr - by gear I was actually referring to air rifles, but yes I get your drift. I haven't ruled out a new PCP, and I plan on contacting a couple of manufactures with questions on a few of their PCPs. In general I opt for used equipment because I'm a competent repairman and can often save substantially with my other hobbies - but there is a big difference investing in outdated and unmaintainable equipment. Let's be honest, there often isn't a whole lot of information out there on some of these rifles from 20+ years ago.

Maybe I'm a bit dense, but I did find all of the posts very helpful in understanding differences (and also lack thereof) between different power sources. I like to have things 90% figured out before I jump into something new - especially logistics, since that is easily overlooked. I come from an operations background and I never leave home without my opscon :P

[crrmeyer]

All and all a rather good diversity of opinions. Seems that the main obstacle for C02 is finding a rifle with that power plant. While I'd hesitate to say I've done extensive research, I've only turned up the FWB C60/C62 and Steyr Match 91 as CO2 precision models.

Walther LG90 and CGM were CO2 powered. The Tau-200 was also CO2, but not quite top tier. CO2 tanks do not require a yoke like a compressed air fill setup. No hassles filling CO2 tanks.

The hot deal was when CMP was selling new FWB P70 Jr. Air Rifles for cheap ($795?). It was nice to introduce new shooters to air rifle shooting with that compressed air rifle.

[adv_rider]

I wanted to post a quick follow up -

A couple of weeks ago I purchased a very nice Anschutz 2002ca from jindodog here on target talk. The transaction was super smooth and jindodog was great to work with in every aspect.

The last precision air rifle I shot was in 2000 as a Jr - a 2002 Superair (did 3p smallbore as well). I've certainly been shooting rifles since then, but pretty much 100 year old milsurps, a 10/22, and occasionally a service rifle. I really didn't know what to expect after such a long hiatus. I'm certainly more aware of shooting mechanics and better at self evaluation that I was 20 years ago, but 20 years is 20 years. It's not like I was top tier anyways. After getting a jacket, sling, glove, and pellets from Champions Choice I'm in business. I found Goran Maksimovic's ISSF coaching course presentation online, and used that as an outline to start rebuilding my positions

I was a little worried that the 2002ca wouldn't be all that great in prone. With all the new transformer stocks the 2002ca laminated stock looks rather outclassed. Below is I think my 6th prone target. From top to bottom: 3 shots, 3 shots, 2 shots, 2 shots. Not perfect, but a pretty good start all things considered! With some regular practice I should be able to clean targets.

(Forgive the Xerox - I forgot to order more targets and I only have a couple tucked away since before times. I printed out a few copies to last until I get a new stack in.)

I'm lucky enough to be able to shoot air in my backyard, so switching to air makes practice so much easier. Only have 40 minutes? No problem. In retrospect it's a shame I didn't go down this path a long time ago.

I appreciate everyone's suggestions and help. Also a big thanks to jindodog for such a beautiful rifle!

[jindodog]

That’s some great shooting! Thank you very much for the kind words. It was a true pleasure working with you and I thank you again.