Top standard pistol?

Gobin · Post by **Gobin** » Tue Dec 16, 2003 1:29 pm

Im new to the sport. Currently shooting an S&w 41, I want to buy a real top target pistol, budget is not problem, What should I get? Dr Gobin

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jim · Post by **jim** » Tue Dec 16, 2003 2:21 pm

: keep your eyes open for a Hammerli 208s or a FWB 93. It would be best to try them before you buy them. And some low end guns perform just as well with a little tuning. Money can buy a few points but what suits your style will benefit you in the long run.
jimfabanich-at-comcast.net.46818.46815

Heath · Post by **Heath** » Tue Dec 16, 2003 2:32 pm

I'm sure if you read throught the archives of this board you will find the same question asked numourous times and the answer I am going to give you has invariably been one of the response, with the exception of my own opinions of couse.
All of the top quality pistols (those being from Hammerli, Pardini, Walther, FWB, Morini, etc...etc) are equally accurate and seeing as budget is not a problem for you then you need to handle (and shoot if possible) as many of these pistols as you possibly can to see which feels best for you.
I can only give you opinion on the FWB AW93 (which i own) and the Walther GSP Expert (which i decided not to buy). The AW93 is supperb, not a single problem with this pistol. The sights and trigger are excellant in terms of quality and adjustability. Some contributors on this board are not fond of the factory supplied grip, however i found it to be quite comfortable and suited me better than the grips on other top quality pistols in the running for my money. One thing you should remember is that you can always reshape the grip or simply buy another one from a specific grip manufacture if the one supplied is not to your liking.
I found the Walther GSP to be a bit nose heavy for my liking, and it was the ballance of the AW93 'in my hand' which enabled me to make my decision.
The choice is yours, try to get your hands on them all, at least for a look if nothing else, seeing and handling the real thing is alot different to looking at a picture on the internet.

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Mark · Post by **Mark** » Tue Dec 16, 2003 6:54 pm

I can only compare the two that I've owned. A Walther OSP (.22 short version of the GSP) and a Pardini SP. Though it's a lot cheaper, I still like my Pardini SP a lot more than my Walther. The Walther was to front heavy for my tastes. The Pardini just seems to balance better for me. The Pardini has a more angled grip, which I like. Also, my Pardini seems a lot more reliable than my OSP *ever* was; some this can be written off because .22short guns are notoriously more picky about ammo than .22lr guns, but even given that, my OSP rarely functioned flawlessly. With my Pardini, I can shoot everything from low velocity Eley ammo all the way up to high velocity el cheapo Federal Lightning without a hiccup.
All of the top guns will shoot very accurately. After that, it comes down to reliability, personal preference, and price (which you don't care about). I suggest you see if you can borrow guns from as many people as possible to see which feels the best for you.
BTW, if you're interested, since Nygord just raised his prices quite a bit (www.nygord-precision.com) if you're interested in Pardinis, you might want to check out:
http://www.gunandsport.com/products/pis ... rdini.html
They're selling Pardini SPs for $975.00. I have no affiliation, just saw the good deal.
: Im new to the sport. Currently shooting an S&w 41, I want to buy a real top target pistol, budget is not problem, What should I get? Dr Gobin

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Mike McDaniel · Post by **Mike McDaniel** » Tue Dec 16, 2003 8:18 pm

: Im new to the sport. Currently shooting an S&w 41, I want to buy a real top target pistol, budget is not problem, What should I get? Dr Gobin
Go to the Pilkguns.com website, get into the Hitchiker's Guide to Shooting Glory, and check the page on Standard Pistol. They have a LOT of information, including a whole page on choices.
My personal choice? A Hammerli 208s. Backups would be a FWB AW-93, or a Hammerli SP-20

HMSLion-at-aol.com.46830.46815

Jim · Post by **Jim** » Tue Dec 16, 2003 11:10 pm

I've owned or extensively used Walther GSP, Hammerli 280 and 208s, Pardini SP, SW 41, old High Standards, and old walther Olympia. They all are fine pistols, but the newer breed are definitely an evolutionary step forward. If you like the SW 41 you'll love the 208s. But, it is out of production and the day will come when parts will be a problem. Hammerli told me they stock parts for discontinued models for about 10 years. But it is a benchmark of quality. I prefer a Pardini SP. It is the most reliable 22 I've shot. It also feels like an extension of my hand and is easy to call shots. The low bore line makes recoil and follow through a joy. It comes right back on target. Accuracy is not an issue as it is not only reliable with a wide range of ammo, it is not finicky from an accuracy standpoint. Out of respect to our knowledgeable contributors, all the guns that have been mentioned are great! If possible, try or at least handle them all!
Best,
Jim

james.buckland-at-converse.edu.46831.46815

Fabian · Post by **Fabian** » Wed Dec 17, 2003 2:11 am

Try as many as you can, I own both, a Hammerli 208 and a Pardini Sp. Honestly, the Pardini is a lot easier to shoot, feels more confortable, the Hammerli is more reliable.
Fabiancancio-at-aol.com.46834.46815

Roland Cannon · Post by **Roland Cannon** » Wed Dec 17, 2003 4:04 am

I ended up with a Pardini and have really enjoyed the gun. The Pardini works well, for me, because it was the gun that felt most similar to my Airpistol. I found the different grip angles of the guns very tough to deal with. No problems with the gun after many, many rounds. Good ammo appears to be the key to this gun.
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Mikael · Post by **Mikael** » Wed Dec 17, 2003 6:59 am

Buy a Hämmerli SP 20 or FWB 93. And it´s easy to change caliber on the Hämmerli.
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Gobin · Post by **Gobin** » Wed Dec 17, 2003 9:10 am

Thank you all folks for your advice, I found a 208s for $2500, but it look very used so I pass and Im buying the AW93.
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Mark · Post by **Mark** » Wed Dec 17, 2003 2:58 pm

Isn't an AW93 just a gussied up IZH-35 with a decent grip on it? If so, the IZH-35 would be about 1/3 the price with plenty of cash left over a decent grip.
: Thank you all folks for your advice, I found a 208s for $2500, but it look very used so I pass and Im buying the AW93.

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Walt Young · Post by **Walt Young** » Wed Dec 17, 2003 4:37 pm

Nope, that's the Walther you are thinking of.
: Isn't an AW93 just a gussied up IZH-35 with a decent grip on it? If so, the IZH-35 would be about 1/3 the price with plenty of cash left over a decent grip.
: : Thank you all folks for your advice, I found a 208s for $2500, but it look very used so I pass and Im buying the AW93.

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Fortitudo Dei · Post by **Fortitudo Dei** » Wed Dec 17, 2003 5:10 pm

: Isn't an AW93 just a gussied up IZH-35 with a decent grip on it? If so, the IZH-35 would be about 1/3 the price with plenty of cash left over a decent grip.

Far from it. From what I have heard (see my other recent posting on the AW93) was a design tweaked and tweaked by its Russian designer over the best part of 20 years. The trigger is vastly superior and almost every aspect of its position and release characteristics can be changed. It has 7(!) adjustment screws and the settings stay PUT. The whole barrel weight moves independently of the side when the pistol cycles. It contains three dampeners to help absorb recoil. The back of the slide even moves up very slightly at the end on its rear travel, helping counter the muzzle flip at the front.
But most importantly is the time and care that it taken in machining and polishing the precision parts from the highest quality steel they can get to do the job - far in excess of what Baikal are capable of doing.
There is an analogy to this which I quite like which comes from another interest of mine - horology (i.e. watches). ETA is a Swiss based company which produces most of the mechanical watch movements used in the world. They produce one called the Valjoux 7750 which is the standard chronograph movement used by over a dozen different watch brands. The base movement can be purchased in a raw form for about $300 (see http://www.ofrei.com/page240.html).
This movement is then used in Oris chronographs (aprox $1100), the Omega automatic Speedmaster ($1600 - $2k), IWC's pilot's watches (about $3k), and Chronoswiss chronographs (including their gorgeous “skeletonised” Opus at $7.5k. See http://watchseller.com/chronop.html).
Yet they all use the same $300 base movement. The price difference mostly relates to the fact that each manufactures pull apart and will polish and polish and fit and refit and refit each of the 100+ parts of the movement, lifting the level of precision to whatever level the market is prepared to pay for that brand of watch.
I like to compare the AW93 and the IZH-35m in the same way. Compare an exploded diagram of each and they may at first glance appear to be very similar. It is only when you look closer that the differences become apparent. It is only when you use them does it become even more so.

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Mark · Post by **Mark** » Wed Dec 17, 2003 5:36 pm

I thought it was both, the AW93 and the KSP200.
: Nope, that's the Walther you are thinking of.
: : Isn't an AW93 just a gussied up IZH-35 with a decent grip on it? If so, the IZH-35 would be about 1/3 the price with plenty of cash left over a decent grip.
: : : Thank you all folks for your advice, I found a 208s for $2500, but it look very used so I pass and Im buying the AW93.

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DelMar · Post by **DelMar** » Wed Dec 17, 2003 5:42 pm

: Isn't an AW93 just a gussied up IZH-35 with a decent grip on it? If so, the IZH-35 would be about 1/3 the price with plenty of cash left over a decent grip.
The AW93 is state of the art example of crafmanchip with a unique recoil reducing moving feature, made in totality of solid steel. With no similarity in any cosmetic or mechanical aspect to the IZH russian gun.
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Jay V · Post by **Jay V** » Thu Dec 18, 2003 4:21 am

: Isn't an AW93 just a gussied up IZH-35 with a decent grip on it? If so, the IZH-35 would be about 1/3 the price with plenty of cash left over a decent grip.

The basic design of the AW is lifted from the IZH (actually IJ-35), but that is about it. FWB has taken it way beyond the IJ/IZH in appearance and construction materials. The Walther KSP-200 is assembled from Baikal parts, but with more concern given for fit-and-finish.
The article below is copied from the "scrapbook" section of Pete Brunelli's web site (www.petebrunelli.com), and includes history of the design.
Jay

"HISTORY:
(Thanks to Michael Dane Warren Potter, and Jesper Rex Andersen)
In answer to your question, it all happened in this order:
In the 60s the Russians had a very highly thought of pistol called an IJ35. We rarely saw them out here except in the hands of Russian team members. A few Australian team members managed to get them through Taransky, an ex-Russian living out here. I doubt any went to the US. They were roughly made but a brilliant design. Until the Domino 602 came on the scene in the mid 70s they swept all before them, here at least.
As the IJ was a limited run made for mainly the elite shooters they are quite uncommon. Many years later Baikal decided to reinvent the wheel and brought out the IZH35, a less sophisticated version of the IJ, but still a very good target pistol. A little rough around the edges, and the grip is fairly forgettable. Brilliant value for money.
Walther has been looking to bring out a budget beginners standard gun for some time. Their KSP200 is actually an IZH35 with a couple of modifications. The basic pistol is still made by Baikal. New features are a push button slide stop and a fancy blue laminated grip. I don't know about in the States, but here you're paying big bucks for those two upgrades and the Walther logo.
The AW93 is interesting. It was delayed in its release for a couple of years as the designer's widow tried to get more money out of FWB for using the design. It is an IJ35 given the once-over by German designers. Meaning they have made it more complicated of course. It has a much more refined trigger and better grip than either Russian pistol. Beautifully made, which I expect explains the price tag. They have just stopped making the nickel finish, I believe all in the future will be blue.
----
You don't mention that the AW-93 also has a special Recoil damping mechanism, that is/was unique to that pistol.
I migh't not want to admit that the AW-93 is based on the IZH35m/Baikal IJ35 (Still sells as the IJ35 when using the Baikal brand in Denmark) design. But when looking at exploded drawings of the IZH35m I can easily see that they look a lot like each other.
btw. I have been told that the Nickel finished version of the IZH35m in most cases has a better quality than the black gun."

jverg-at-att.net.46879.46847

TomW · Post by **TomW** » Thu Dec 18, 2003 10:38 am

: Isn't an AW93 just a gussied up IZH-35 with a decent grip on it? If so, the IZH-35 would be about 1/3 the price with plenty of cash left over a decent grip.
: : Thank you all folks for your advice, I found a 208s for $2500, but it look very used so I pass and Im buying the AW93.
The AW93 is not a gussied up IZH35 (and just for the record the IZH 35 and the (sic)IJ35 are one and the same guns - there is no "J" in the Russian language and "ZH" is the correct transliteration of the cyrillic letter in question).
The AW93 is based on (and is virtually identical to) the HR30/31 pistols which are the pistols which were used by the Russian Olympians (HR stands for Haidurov Rasnaryov the two designers of the pistol. These pistols are very different to the IZH34/35 pistols.
As I understand it FWB bought from the Russians, the rights to manufacture the pistol under their name. Readers interested in this should look at Yur'Yev's book on shooting and it shows and describes the HR30/31 pistols in some detail. I think the HR30 is the RF version and the 31 the Standard Pistol version.
Hope this is of some use to people.
Regards
Tom
twoodle1-at-bigpond.net.au.46893.46847

Fortitudo Dei · Post by **Fortitudo Dei** » Thu Dec 18, 2003 11:56 am

Thanks for the great info Tom which has helped plug a few gaps in my knowledge. Do you (or anyone else) have a copy of the HR30 image from the Yur'Yev book that you could post to TT? I'd be very interested to compare the two.
: The AW93 is not a gussied up IZH35 (and just for the record the IZH 35 and the (sic)IJ35 are one and the same guns - there is no "J" in the Russian language and "ZH" is the correct transliteration of the cyrillic letter in question).
: The AW93 is based on (and is virtually identical to) the HR30/31 pistols which are the pistols which were used by the Russian Olympians (HR stands for Haidurov Rasnaryov the two designers of the pistol. These pistols are very different to the IZH34/35 pistols.
: As I understand it FWB bought from the Russians, the rights to manufacture the pistol under their name. Readers interested in this should look at Yur'Yev's book on shooting and it shows and describes the HR30/31 pistols in some detail. I think the HR30 is the RF version and the 31 the Standard Pistol version.
: Hope this is of some use to people.
: Regards
: Tom

Fortitudo_Dei-at-hotmail.com.remove.46895.46893

Jay V · Post by **Jay V** » Thu Dec 18, 2003 12:02 pm

: ... (and just for the record the IZH 35 and the (sic)IJ35 are one and the same guns - there is no "J" in the Russian language and "ZH" is the correct transliteration of the cyrillic letter in question).

From what I have seen, I would say that they are similar, but not the same. Along with the translation from I"J" to I"ZH" did come some changes. I refer to it as an "IZH" when it is designed for the U.S. market. These guns have a different upper shroud mounting system, a manual safety and a grip safety. The true "IJ" was the original version without these "U.S. market" changes.
Jay
jverg-at-att.net.46896.46893

TomW · Post by **TomW** » Thu Dec 18, 2003 12:32 pm

: Thanks for the great info Tom which has helped plug a few gaps in my knowledge. Do you (or anyone else) have a copy of the HR30 image from the Yur'Yev book that you could post to TT? I'd be very interested to compare the two.
Sorry but I don't have a copy of the book. I believe you can get a copy through Amazon. You'll see the HR 30/31 on just about every illustration. Want to know what it looks like. Have a look at an AW 93. The only difference is the small fitment at the muszzle, which is more cosmetic than anything else. The AW 93 is identical in every other respect, only better made and finished.
Also, I'm not going to get into an argument about IZH and IJ. I wrote to Baikal in Russia some time back to sort this out and as far as they are concerned the two are the same pistol. The Russian designation is èæ35 which is for all intents and purposes is IZH in English. IJ may be a term that the US used when they made minor mods to the pistol but it and the IZH are one and the same pistols and totally different from the HR 30
twoodle1-at-bigpond.net.au.46897.46895

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