Assuming I use a barrel-smith who knows what s/he's doing...would it be safe to have an anschutz barrel fluted?
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Barrel weights
Moderators: rexifelis, pilkguns
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Michael Ray
Re: Fluting an Anschutz barrel
Yes, it can be done. Morehead State had some of their older Anschutz rifles shortened, rechambered and fluted to reduce the weight for their women shooters. I can't say whether he tested accuracy before and after but I know he uses them.
It CAN ruin a barrel, of course, so make sure the smith has done this many times before with success.
.46685.46667
It CAN ruin a barrel, of course, so make sure the smith has done this many times before with success.
.46685.46667
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Joacim
Re: Barrel weights
: Assuming I use a barrel-smith who knows what s/he's doing...would it be safe to have an anschutz barrel fluted?
.46686.46667
.46686.46667
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Joacim
Re: Barrel weights
I have shortened and fluted two of my old barrels and my experience is that you are better off buying one that is made after your specifications than trying to modify an existing barrel. It might work at 50 ft, but you will probably not be able to keep the consistent accuracy from 50 meters.
Make a list of what you want out of the barrel and then contact a few of the barrel manufacturers and ask them if they can do it.
Joacim
.46687.46667
Make a list of what you want out of the barrel and then contact a few of the barrel manufacturers and ask them if they can do it.
Joacim
.46687.46667
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pdeal
Re: Fluting an Anschutz barrel
I bought a used barreled action with a fluted heavy barrel. I had no interest in the barrel I only wanted the assembly for the action. I shot it some as is and it shoots ok and the fluted barreled action is lighter than a 1907 barreled action. So my thinking is that it will be an ideal next gun for my oldest daughter. You should talk with the barrel supplier though. If you are talking with Lilja for example I'd say he knows barrels pretty well. If he feels comfortable fluting one of his barrels then I would feel more comfortable doing it. If he does not feel to good about it I would not consider it. Different makers will have different oppinions too. Also, you need to get a feel for how deeply they will flute the barrel. Most commercially fluted barrels I have seen the flutes appeared to be more for looks than anything since the flutes were so shallow. The flutes in my barrel are about 1/4" deep and 1/4" wide.
pdeal-at-mylanlabs.com.46688.46685
pdeal-at-mylanlabs.com.46688.46685
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Jake
Re: Barrel weights
Hold on there big fella!!
IMHO fluting a button rifled barrel is not ideal. If it were a cut rifled barrel then there is much less stress stored in the metal than the hoop stresses caused by the button being pulled through the bore. When you flute a button rifled barrel that stess gets released in some cases and increased in others. It may ruin the accuracy potential of the rifle.
Next, have you actually found the balance point of the rifle(s) and actually hung weights on the back of the smallbore stock to try to recreate the same balance point?
If not, then you are wasting your time. This is typical behavior for an engineering student ;>)
All this talk about rebarrelling and fluting and cutting etc., is making my head spin!
You said in a previous post it was 5 inches, now it is 8 cm (that is less than 3 inches). This is time for practical testing, not hypothetical calculations.
Another thing, is your body position Exactly the same when you shoot smallbore as air rifle?? Typically it is not. Perhaps there is something that can be improved in your position rather than wasting all this time and energy (and money) on something you may regret later.
On last thought, have you ever tried adding some weight to the air rifle to (slightly) increase the muzzle heaviness? I know exactly what you are going to say, so let me; "I have a ten ring hold, why mess with a good thing?!" Well now, I don't recall seeing your name with a 585 or better behind it, so maybe it isn't 10 ring and if you have not tried it recently then you are apparently not searching for an even better hold. That would be a motivation problem, not an equipment problem.
.46690.46667
IMHO fluting a button rifled barrel is not ideal. If it were a cut rifled barrel then there is much less stress stored in the metal than the hoop stresses caused by the button being pulled through the bore. When you flute a button rifled barrel that stess gets released in some cases and increased in others. It may ruin the accuracy potential of the rifle.
Next, have you actually found the balance point of the rifle(s) and actually hung weights on the back of the smallbore stock to try to recreate the same balance point?
If not, then you are wasting your time. This is typical behavior for an engineering student ;>)
All this talk about rebarrelling and fluting and cutting etc., is making my head spin!
You said in a previous post it was 5 inches, now it is 8 cm (that is less than 3 inches). This is time for practical testing, not hypothetical calculations.
Another thing, is your body position Exactly the same when you shoot smallbore as air rifle?? Typically it is not. Perhaps there is something that can be improved in your position rather than wasting all this time and energy (and money) on something you may regret later.
On last thought, have you ever tried adding some weight to the air rifle to (slightly) increase the muzzle heaviness? I know exactly what you are going to say, so let me; "I have a ten ring hold, why mess with a good thing?!" Well now, I don't recall seeing your name with a 585 or better behind it, so maybe it isn't 10 ring and if you have not tried it recently then you are apparently not searching for an even better hold. That would be a motivation problem, not an equipment problem.
.46690.46667
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Joseph
This is a very long counterflame with little to add to the d
If it makes you feel any better, I am not going to cut my barrel, and I will almost certainly not modify it in any way. I was asking partially from an academic standpoint, but I didn't think it would work. Based on responses, there is enough dissention that I'm not goint to take the chance with a decent barrel.
Also, I have hung weights off the back of the stock. Every weight i own, in fact, and that extra half kilo or so didn't change the balance point enought to make the difference i desired.
The calculation I'm using to aproximate the CoM after addign weight is:
x(CG)=m1(x1-x.)+m2(x2-x.)
where m1 is the mass of the rifle, x1 is the distance of the current CoG from an arbitrary and constant reference point, m2 is the mass added to the back, x2 is the distance from the CoM of the added weight to the same arbitray, constat reference poing and x. is the distance from that arbitrary, constant reference point to my desired balance point. x.,x1,and x2 were determined analytically (by balancing the rifle and moving the support point until it didn't have a great tendency to fall over, within the realm of accuracy by which this is measurable.
Of course, this also assumes that g is rouchly constant throughout the region of space occupied by the rifle and weights, but...that's obviously safe.
I have reviewed my calculations, and they have come up, again, with a need for 1.09kg with a center of mass at exactly the point of contact in my sholder. This isn't feasible. It would require 1.466kg placed at a more feasible location (in front of bp and under chiekpiece). My aproximation of 1.5-2kg was based on the assumption that there isn't much room there to add weight without changing the shape of the rifle by sticking on weights, and that i'd have to spread it out, possibly changing the CoM of my weights farther forward than my theoretical position, and it was assumed/aproximated to allow for errors on the easy-to-correct side...it's easier to take off weights that you have than to find more if you need them.
Based on a density of lead of 11.35 g/ml and the apropriate conversion factors, that's about 8 cubic inches of lead...doable, but not without seriously limiting the adjustment capabilities of the cheakpiece and/or risking that contact with my chest would disloge the weights. (this assumes sticky tire weights would be used).
Pretty much everything that is enough more dense than lead to make this volume enough smaller is a) hard to get b) expensive and usually c) harder to work with.
Hence, the other method to moving the balance point: a lighter barrel. The reason for my orignal posting was to see if anyone has had experience with aftermarket barrels and/or any constructive ideas that i haven't thought of yet for adding weight to the back. I apologize if that wasn't explicit in my original posting.
I have seen fluted barrels before, especially in larger bore rifles, but I have only seen one fluted .22lr barel...which was "made" by Unique in France. This particular thread was asking if that were possible given the differences in diameter i saw between the Unique barrel and the Anschutz barrel.
Also, the entire reason that I'm considering fluted barrels is because I don't want a barrel all that much shorter than the one I have now (for obvious reasons) and because I don't like bloop tubes. I've had enough problems w/ a standard mec tube on my air rifle that a foot long empty tube just doesn't seem like a good idea...fluting was an obvious solution to these problems...again, if and only if it is possible.
Additionally, the reason I want to move the balance point in my smallbore is because I have already tried the "random variations" that you allude to. I have tried extremely barrel heavy configurations of my air rifle (to the extreme where it was, technically illegal because of the ammount of barrel weights...just because i felt like doing it one day and to see what would happen). I have also tried extremely stock heavy configurations (about a kilo added to the back w/ a naked barrel). I have settled on what works best for me, based on measuring my hold on SCATTS, RIKA's, and Noptels and on my confidence with different sizes, shapes, frequencies, speeds, and degrees of randomess of my hold in the various configurations.
I will not get into an argument with you about the quality of my hold, nor the history of my scores.
But I will ask you if you actually know my name...perhaps my last name is Goenci and I decided to spell my first name with a 'ph' instead of an 'f' because i did't want to attract attention. Granted, that's complete garbage and i'm sure mr. Goenci solved all of these problems for himself a long time ago, but unless you traced my e-mail address or know me personally, you don't really know.
Oh, and I am going to directly attack one of your snide little comments. Engineers don't calculate randomly, scientists do. If a normal person comes home to find a fire, they spray a fire-extinguisher everywhere, ruining everything. If an engineer comes home to a fire, he quickly aproximates the ammount of halon or CO2 needed and sprays it at the apropriate place in the fire to minimize damage by both the fire and the fire-extinguisher. If a scientist comes home to a fire, He gets out a slide rule and paper and calculated the precise amount of CO2 and trajectory at which it should be fired to minimize damages, and then leaves, declaring that he knows how to do it.
On a side note, a mathematician would do fewer calculations, and stop after setting them up, declaring, "there is a solution."
Thank you for your thoughts on fluting a button-rifled vs. a cut-rifled barrel.
I apologize for inconsistency in the distances reported, they were careless errors on my part, but since I have not asked anyone to validate/use my figures, I hope the majority of you can overlook these errors as typos and carlessness.
Also, I have prettymuch finished expiramenting with my AR balance point, because it works. If i later see a probelm, I will atempt to solve it in my technique first. I'm trying to get my smallbore as close as possible to my established technique so that I do not have to practice two mutually exclusive shot plans. As for the lack of motivation, it takes more motivation to actually work with something than to change something to see if it works better. And since Gary Anderson honestly believes, as do i, that "a well-practiced mistake is better than the eternal search for perfection," I'm done screwing w/ my air rifle, and as soon as i get my sb "close-enough" to the same balance so that i can use a similar position and shot plan (which is somewhat dependant on the size, shape, etc. of my hold for confidence reasons) then i'll be done with it until i see a problem that can only be solved by "random variations."
I apologize if I have offended anyone in the course of this flame.
:Hold on there big fella!!
: IMHO fluting a button rifled barrel is not ideal. If it were a cut rifled barrel then there is much less stress stored in the metal than the hoop stresses caused by the button being pulled through the bore. When you flute a button rifled barrel that stess gets released in some cases and increased in others. It may ruin the accuracy potential of the rifle.
: Next, have you actually found the balance point of the rifle(s) and actually hung weights on the back of the smallbore stock to try to recreate the same balance point?
: If not, then you are wasting your time. This is typical behavior for an engineering student ;>)
: All this talk about rebarrelling and fluting and cutting etc., is making my head spin!
: You said in a previous post it was 5 inches, now it is 8 cm (that is less than 3 inches). This is time for practical testing, not hypothetical calculations.
: Another thing, is your body position Exactly the same when you shoot smallbore as air rifle?? Typically it is not. Perhaps there is something that can be improved in your position rather than wasting all this time and energy (and money) on something you may regret later.
: On last thought, have you ever tried adding some weight to the air rifle to (slightly) increase the muzzle heaviness? I know exactly what you are going to say, so let me; "I have a ten ring hold, why mess with a good thing?!" Well now, I don't recall seeing your name with a 585 or better behind it, so maybe it isn't 10 ring and if you have not tried it recently then you are apparently not searching for an even better hold. That would be a motivation problem, not an equipment problem.
.46693.46690
Also, I have hung weights off the back of the stock. Every weight i own, in fact, and that extra half kilo or so didn't change the balance point enought to make the difference i desired.
The calculation I'm using to aproximate the CoM after addign weight is:
x(CG)=m1(x1-x.)+m2(x2-x.)
where m1 is the mass of the rifle, x1 is the distance of the current CoG from an arbitrary and constant reference point, m2 is the mass added to the back, x2 is the distance from the CoM of the added weight to the same arbitray, constat reference poing and x. is the distance from that arbitrary, constant reference point to my desired balance point. x.,x1,and x2 were determined analytically (by balancing the rifle and moving the support point until it didn't have a great tendency to fall over, within the realm of accuracy by which this is measurable.
Of course, this also assumes that g is rouchly constant throughout the region of space occupied by the rifle and weights, but...that's obviously safe.
I have reviewed my calculations, and they have come up, again, with a need for 1.09kg with a center of mass at exactly the point of contact in my sholder. This isn't feasible. It would require 1.466kg placed at a more feasible location (in front of bp and under chiekpiece). My aproximation of 1.5-2kg was based on the assumption that there isn't much room there to add weight without changing the shape of the rifle by sticking on weights, and that i'd have to spread it out, possibly changing the CoM of my weights farther forward than my theoretical position, and it was assumed/aproximated to allow for errors on the easy-to-correct side...it's easier to take off weights that you have than to find more if you need them.
Based on a density of lead of 11.35 g/ml and the apropriate conversion factors, that's about 8 cubic inches of lead...doable, but not without seriously limiting the adjustment capabilities of the cheakpiece and/or risking that contact with my chest would disloge the weights. (this assumes sticky tire weights would be used).
Pretty much everything that is enough more dense than lead to make this volume enough smaller is a) hard to get b) expensive and usually c) harder to work with.
Hence, the other method to moving the balance point: a lighter barrel. The reason for my orignal posting was to see if anyone has had experience with aftermarket barrels and/or any constructive ideas that i haven't thought of yet for adding weight to the back. I apologize if that wasn't explicit in my original posting.
I have seen fluted barrels before, especially in larger bore rifles, but I have only seen one fluted .22lr barel...which was "made" by Unique in France. This particular thread was asking if that were possible given the differences in diameter i saw between the Unique barrel and the Anschutz barrel.
Also, the entire reason that I'm considering fluted barrels is because I don't want a barrel all that much shorter than the one I have now (for obvious reasons) and because I don't like bloop tubes. I've had enough problems w/ a standard mec tube on my air rifle that a foot long empty tube just doesn't seem like a good idea...fluting was an obvious solution to these problems...again, if and only if it is possible.
Additionally, the reason I want to move the balance point in my smallbore is because I have already tried the "random variations" that you allude to. I have tried extremely barrel heavy configurations of my air rifle (to the extreme where it was, technically illegal because of the ammount of barrel weights...just because i felt like doing it one day and to see what would happen). I have also tried extremely stock heavy configurations (about a kilo added to the back w/ a naked barrel). I have settled on what works best for me, based on measuring my hold on SCATTS, RIKA's, and Noptels and on my confidence with different sizes, shapes, frequencies, speeds, and degrees of randomess of my hold in the various configurations.
I will not get into an argument with you about the quality of my hold, nor the history of my scores.
But I will ask you if you actually know my name...perhaps my last name is Goenci and I decided to spell my first name with a 'ph' instead of an 'f' because i did't want to attract attention. Granted, that's complete garbage and i'm sure mr. Goenci solved all of these problems for himself a long time ago, but unless you traced my e-mail address or know me personally, you don't really know.
Oh, and I am going to directly attack one of your snide little comments. Engineers don't calculate randomly, scientists do. If a normal person comes home to find a fire, they spray a fire-extinguisher everywhere, ruining everything. If an engineer comes home to a fire, he quickly aproximates the ammount of halon or CO2 needed and sprays it at the apropriate place in the fire to minimize damage by both the fire and the fire-extinguisher. If a scientist comes home to a fire, He gets out a slide rule and paper and calculated the precise amount of CO2 and trajectory at which it should be fired to minimize damages, and then leaves, declaring that he knows how to do it.
On a side note, a mathematician would do fewer calculations, and stop after setting them up, declaring, "there is a solution."
Thank you for your thoughts on fluting a button-rifled vs. a cut-rifled barrel.
I apologize for inconsistency in the distances reported, they were careless errors on my part, but since I have not asked anyone to validate/use my figures, I hope the majority of you can overlook these errors as typos and carlessness.
Also, I have prettymuch finished expiramenting with my AR balance point, because it works. If i later see a probelm, I will atempt to solve it in my technique first. I'm trying to get my smallbore as close as possible to my established technique so that I do not have to practice two mutually exclusive shot plans. As for the lack of motivation, it takes more motivation to actually work with something than to change something to see if it works better. And since Gary Anderson honestly believes, as do i, that "a well-practiced mistake is better than the eternal search for perfection," I'm done screwing w/ my air rifle, and as soon as i get my sb "close-enough" to the same balance so that i can use a similar position and shot plan (which is somewhat dependant on the size, shape, etc. of my hold for confidence reasons) then i'll be done with it until i see a problem that can only be solved by "random variations."
I apologize if I have offended anyone in the course of this flame.
:Hold on there big fella!!
: IMHO fluting a button rifled barrel is not ideal. If it were a cut rifled barrel then there is much less stress stored in the metal than the hoop stresses caused by the button being pulled through the bore. When you flute a button rifled barrel that stess gets released in some cases and increased in others. It may ruin the accuracy potential of the rifle.
: Next, have you actually found the balance point of the rifle(s) and actually hung weights on the back of the smallbore stock to try to recreate the same balance point?
: If not, then you are wasting your time. This is typical behavior for an engineering student ;>)
: All this talk about rebarrelling and fluting and cutting etc., is making my head spin!
: You said in a previous post it was 5 inches, now it is 8 cm (that is less than 3 inches). This is time for practical testing, not hypothetical calculations.
: Another thing, is your body position Exactly the same when you shoot smallbore as air rifle?? Typically it is not. Perhaps there is something that can be improved in your position rather than wasting all this time and energy (and money) on something you may regret later.
: On last thought, have you ever tried adding some weight to the air rifle to (slightly) increase the muzzle heaviness? I know exactly what you are going to say, so let me; "I have a ten ring hold, why mess with a good thing?!" Well now, I don't recall seeing your name with a 585 or better behind it, so maybe it isn't 10 ring and if you have not tried it recently then you are apparently not searching for an even better hold. That would be a motivation problem, not an equipment problem.
.46693.46690
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Tom Monto
Re: Barrel weights
It really is a crap-shoot to have the barrel fluted.
It can be done. I know of a junior who is shooting a fluted bbl. The rifle shoots great. (he was 1st. IJ at Perry, and last week shot 399 in our local match) so the rifle does shoot with the bbl. fluted (It's an Anschutz).
I have been told by bbl. makers that after fluting, the bbl should be stress relieved. I know for a fact that the above mentioned rifle was not relieved.
I personally am a Hart bbl. fan. You need to talk to a couple of makers and get their opinion. After all they ARE the experts.
TM
t8monto-at-aol.com.46714.46667
It can be done. I know of a junior who is shooting a fluted bbl. The rifle shoots great. (he was 1st. IJ at Perry, and last week shot 399 in our local match) so the rifle does shoot with the bbl. fluted (It's an Anschutz).
I have been told by bbl. makers that after fluting, the bbl should be stress relieved. I know for a fact that the above mentioned rifle was not relieved.
I personally am a Hart bbl. fan. You need to talk to a couple of makers and get their opinion. After all they ARE the experts.
TM
t8monto-at-aol.com.46714.46667