Okay guys, I want some input from the readership. I've been listening to folks moan and groan about the demise of our sport for years. I've always maintained a positive, 'can do' attitude throughout this and done my best to prove the nay-sayers wrong.
I've NEVER found that there was a disinterest in the sport itself. As a coach, I've always experienced that there is never a shortage of kids who want to shoot (sometimes a shortage of facilities, equipment or adults, but NOT kids).
In running between 14-18 competitions a year, not to mention clinics and a summer shooting camp, the problem that is continually emerging as a show stopper has been that of insurance.
There is simply NO INSURANCE COMPANY IN THE COUNTRY who will insure a shooting event for an individual or small club FOR ANY PRICE. The only insurance I've been able to get has been a result of piggy-backing my events with umbrella organizations.
The problem I'm running into, however, is that those umbrella organizations only cover members of that organization (thereby making it very difficult to run an open match).
So, What do we do? What are YOU doing?
I would like to see the NRA or USAS assist us in sponsoring matches by helping us obtain insurance.
When I look at other national governing bodies, I see them doing just that. USA Hockey (a sport with serious injuries) has insurance for its affiliated leagues and even its affiliated members. If they can do it, why can't our governing body?
If the sport dwindles, it won't be because of lack of interest, bad laws, or anti-gunners. It'll be because there won't be any sites that we can hold our events. No one wants to take the chance.
Interestingly enough, the insurance companies themselves group shooting injuries in the same category as table tennis and bowling. So, why won't they insure us? Not because they fear accidents. It's because they fear that some whacko will purposely shoot someone.
Most recently (in fact, RIGHT NOW), I am looking for a facility that will allow me to set up an airgun range to accomodate twenty shooters at a time. I have nearly 60 kids who want to participate in a match. I have contacted numerous facilities (from armories and gyms to local halls) and the bottom line is a fear of liability that I cannot assauge.
If you have a great idea, let me know. If not, help me convince the powers that be at the NRA and USAS to help us grow the sport and sponsor matches. There is a NEED out there for some coverage. Let's get it!
makpak3200-at-earthlink.net.46322.0
It's not the anti-gunners, it's the liability that will bury
Moderators: rexifelis, pilkguns
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Katy
Re: It's not the anti-gunners, it's the liability that will
Have you tried looking into 4H. Our club was running into the same problems until we decided to become a 4H club. From what I understand they do the insuring. The only problem is that all shooters that compete in the club sponcered matches must be members. Its not a big deal though we just make that part of the match registration.
Just an idea...hope it helps
-Katy
.46333.46322
Just an idea...hope it helps
-Katy
.46333.46322
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Joe Matusic, MD
Re: It's not the anti-gunners, it's the liability that will
I have another hobby that I don't participate in near as much as airgunning and that is radio controlled model airplanes. They have similar issues with insurance as the planes occasionally get out of control and hit a car or bystander. You can't fly at a local airplane club's field unless you are a member and all members must be members of the national model airplane association (not sure of exact name). The national association membership fee includes something like $100,000 liability insurance. Last tie I checked (several years ago), its was only $50 or $60 to join the national group and that included the insurance. Certainly you could come up with a limited membership during events for a reduced price. Perhaps a 1 week or 1 month membership. It would be nice if the NRA or some other type of national organization could sponsor insurance for its members, especially during sanctioned events. The risk of injury is so tiny, there is surely an insurance company out there that would like to benefit from this type of cash cow.
Joe.Matusic-at-Camc.org.46337.46322
Joe.Matusic-at-Camc.org.46337.46322
-
Don
Re: It's not the anti-gunners, it's the liability that will
: Okay guys, I want some input from the readership. I've been listening to folks moan and groan about the demise of our sport for years. I've always maintained a positive, 'can do' attitude throughout this and done my best to prove the nay-sayers wrong.
: I've NEVER found that there was a disinterest in the sport itself. As a coach, I've always experienced that there is never a shortage of kids who want to shoot (sometimes a shortage of facilities, equipment or adults, but NOT kids).
: In running between 14-18 competitions a year, not to mention clinics and a summer shooting camp, the problem that is continually emerging as a show stopper has been that of insurance.
: There is simply NO INSURANCE COMPANY IN THE COUNTRY who will insure a shooting event for an individual or small club FOR ANY PRICE. The only insurance I've been able to get has been a result of piggy-backing my events with umbrella organizations.
: The problem I'm running into, however, is that those umbrella organizations only cover members of that organization (thereby making it very difficult to run an open match).
: So, What do we do? What are YOU doing?
: I would like to see the NRA or USAS assist us in sponsoring matches by helping us obtain insurance.
: When I look at other national governing bodies, I see them doing just that. USA Hockey (a sport with serious injuries) has insurance for its affiliated leagues and even its affiliated members. If they can do it, why can't our governing body?
: If the sport dwindles, it won't be because of lack of interest, bad laws, or anti-gunners. It'll be because there won't be any sites that we can hold our events. No one wants to take the chance.
: Interestingly enough, the insurance companies themselves group shooting injuries in the same category as table tennis and bowling. So, why won't they insure us? Not because they fear accidents. It's because they fear that some whacko will purposely shoot someone.
: Most recently (in fact, RIGHT NOW), I am looking for a facility that will allow me to set up an airgun range to accomodate twenty shooters at a time. I have nearly 60 kids who want to participate in a match. I have contacted numerous facilities (from armories and gyms to local halls) and the bottom line is a fear of liability that I cannot assauge.
: If you have a great idea, let me know. If not, help me convince the powers that be at the NRA and USAS to help us grow the sport and sponsor matches. There is a NEED out there for some coverage. Let's get it!
I agree with Michele and have wondered for years why there is no insurance plan from the NRA or USAS or IPSC or??? for clubs and matches, etc. Many other countries have this feature as part of their membership program/dues. I know NSRA in England does, and I am sure many other countries do as well. Why not the US?
bawilli-at-attglobal.net.46345.46322
: I've NEVER found that there was a disinterest in the sport itself. As a coach, I've always experienced that there is never a shortage of kids who want to shoot (sometimes a shortage of facilities, equipment or adults, but NOT kids).
: In running between 14-18 competitions a year, not to mention clinics and a summer shooting camp, the problem that is continually emerging as a show stopper has been that of insurance.
: There is simply NO INSURANCE COMPANY IN THE COUNTRY who will insure a shooting event for an individual or small club FOR ANY PRICE. The only insurance I've been able to get has been a result of piggy-backing my events with umbrella organizations.
: The problem I'm running into, however, is that those umbrella organizations only cover members of that organization (thereby making it very difficult to run an open match).
: So, What do we do? What are YOU doing?
: I would like to see the NRA or USAS assist us in sponsoring matches by helping us obtain insurance.
: When I look at other national governing bodies, I see them doing just that. USA Hockey (a sport with serious injuries) has insurance for its affiliated leagues and even its affiliated members. If they can do it, why can't our governing body?
: If the sport dwindles, it won't be because of lack of interest, bad laws, or anti-gunners. It'll be because there won't be any sites that we can hold our events. No one wants to take the chance.
: Interestingly enough, the insurance companies themselves group shooting injuries in the same category as table tennis and bowling. So, why won't they insure us? Not because they fear accidents. It's because they fear that some whacko will purposely shoot someone.
: Most recently (in fact, RIGHT NOW), I am looking for a facility that will allow me to set up an airgun range to accomodate twenty shooters at a time. I have nearly 60 kids who want to participate in a match. I have contacted numerous facilities (from armories and gyms to local halls) and the bottom line is a fear of liability that I cannot assauge.
: If you have a great idea, let me know. If not, help me convince the powers that be at the NRA and USAS to help us grow the sport and sponsor matches. There is a NEED out there for some coverage. Let's get it!
I agree with Michele and have wondered for years why there is no insurance plan from the NRA or USAS or IPSC or??? for clubs and matches, etc. Many other countries have this feature as part of their membership program/dues. I know NSRA in England does, and I am sure many other countries do as well. Why not the US?
bawilli-at-attglobal.net.46345.46322
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Mark
If USAS provided this, I would renew my membership (nt)
: Okay guys, I want some input from the readership. I've been listening to folks moan and groan about the demise of our sport for years. I've always maintained a positive, 'can do' attitude throughout this and done my best to prove the nay-sayers wrong.
: I've NEVER found that there was a disinterest in the sport itself. As a coach, I've always experienced that there is never a shortage of kids who want to shoot (sometimes a shortage of facilities, equipment or adults, but NOT kids).
: In running between 14-18 competitions a year, not to mention clinics and a summer shooting camp, the problem that is continually emerging as a show stopper has been that of insurance.
: There is simply NO INSURANCE COMPANY IN THE COUNTRY who will insure a shooting event for an individual or small club FOR ANY PRICE. The only insurance I've been able to get has been a result of piggy-backing my events with umbrella organizations.
: The problem I'm running into, however, is that those umbrella organizations only cover members of that organization (thereby making it very difficult to run an open match).
: So, What do we do? What are YOU doing?
: I would like to see the NRA or USAS assist us in sponsoring matches by helping us obtain insurance.
: When I look at other national governing bodies, I see them doing just that. USA Hockey (a sport with serious injuries) has insurance for its affiliated leagues and even its affiliated members. If they can do it, why can't our governing body?
: If the sport dwindles, it won't be because of lack of interest, bad laws, or anti-gunners. It'll be because there won't be any sites that we can hold our events. No one wants to take the chance.
: Interestingly enough, the insurance companies themselves group shooting injuries in the same category as table tennis and bowling. So, why won't they insure us? Not because they fear accidents. It's because they fear that some whacko will purposely shoot someone.
: Most recently (in fact, RIGHT NOW), I am looking for a facility that will allow me to set up an airgun range to accomodate twenty shooters at a time. I have nearly 60 kids who want to participate in a match. I have contacted numerous facilities (from armories and gyms to local halls) and the bottom line is a fear of liability that I cannot assauge.
: If you have a great idea, let me know. If not, help me convince the powers that be at the NRA and USAS to help us grow the sport and sponsor matches. There is a NEED out there for some coverage. Let's get it!
.46346.46322
: I've NEVER found that there was a disinterest in the sport itself. As a coach, I've always experienced that there is never a shortage of kids who want to shoot (sometimes a shortage of facilities, equipment or adults, but NOT kids).
: In running between 14-18 competitions a year, not to mention clinics and a summer shooting camp, the problem that is continually emerging as a show stopper has been that of insurance.
: There is simply NO INSURANCE COMPANY IN THE COUNTRY who will insure a shooting event for an individual or small club FOR ANY PRICE. The only insurance I've been able to get has been a result of piggy-backing my events with umbrella organizations.
: The problem I'm running into, however, is that those umbrella organizations only cover members of that organization (thereby making it very difficult to run an open match).
: So, What do we do? What are YOU doing?
: I would like to see the NRA or USAS assist us in sponsoring matches by helping us obtain insurance.
: When I look at other national governing bodies, I see them doing just that. USA Hockey (a sport with serious injuries) has insurance for its affiliated leagues and even its affiliated members. If they can do it, why can't our governing body?
: If the sport dwindles, it won't be because of lack of interest, bad laws, or anti-gunners. It'll be because there won't be any sites that we can hold our events. No one wants to take the chance.
: Interestingly enough, the insurance companies themselves group shooting injuries in the same category as table tennis and bowling. So, why won't they insure us? Not because they fear accidents. It's because they fear that some whacko will purposely shoot someone.
: Most recently (in fact, RIGHT NOW), I am looking for a facility that will allow me to set up an airgun range to accomodate twenty shooters at a time. I have nearly 60 kids who want to participate in a match. I have contacted numerous facilities (from armories and gyms to local halls) and the bottom line is a fear of liability that I cannot assauge.
: If you have a great idea, let me know. If not, help me convince the powers that be at the NRA and USAS to help us grow the sport and sponsor matches. There is a NEED out there for some coverage. Let's get it!
.46346.46322
-
Pat McCoy
Re: It's not the anti-gunners, it's the liability that will
: I've NEVER found that there was a disinterest in the sport itself. As a coach, I've always experienced that there is never a shortage of kids who want to shoot (sometimes a shortage of facilities, equipment or adults, but NOT kids).:
I wish this were true in our area. We only had sven kids for our latest five week basic class, this out of a population base of about 25,000.
: In running between 14-18 competitions a year, not to mention clinics and a summer shooting camp, the problem that is continually emerging as a show stopper has been that of insurance. :
: There is simply NO INSURANCE COMPANY IN THE COUNTRY who will insure a shooting event for an individual or small club FOR ANY PRICE. :
NRA offers a program for affiliated clubs, however not all companies are licensed in all states. a non-NRA program we are currently looking into is offered by "T.H.E. Insurance company". Check with your state.
:The only insurance I've been able to get has been a result of piggy-backing my events with umbrella organizations. :
Is your club part of an adult club? If so, the adult club policy should extend to your programs. Check with your agent, or the company directly.
: The problem I'm running into, however, is that those umbrella organizations only cover members of that organization (thereby making it very difficult to run an open match).:
I'm not sure what you are trying to accomplish. You write about liability insurance being a problem, however the above scentence looks as if you are looking for "accident or medical" coverage for the participants. These are to totally different things. Liability insurance protects the operators of a program if they are liable for injuries or damages to others. Protection for the participants should be borne by the participants themselves.
: So, What do we do? What are YOU doing? :
Our junior club is a division of a senior club, and the senior club carries the coverage. The senios club also puts on all the classes, matches, shooting booth at the local fair, hunter safety, etc.
: I would like to see the NRA or USAS assist us in sponsoring matches by helping us obtain insurance. :
NRA has a program, but I suspect that USAS cannot offer anything becasue their membership basi is so low that no insurance company is willing to talk to them.
: When I look at other national governing bodies, I see them doing just that. USA Hockey (a sport with serious injuries) has insurance for its affiliated leagues and even its affiliated members. If they can do it, why can't our governing body? :
NRA does offer a liability program for it's affiliates clubs, however I wonder again if you are looking for "accident or medical" coverage (something that should be handled on an individual basis -- personal rights entail personal responsibility).
: Interestingly enough, the insurance companies themselves group shooting injuries in the same category as table tennis and bowling. So, why won't they insure us? Not because they fear accidents. It's because they fear that some whacko will purposely shoot someone. :
More likely that the numbers of participants are so small, and spread over so large an area, that there is little chance for an underwriting profit for the companies. Remember, insurance companies are no different than other businesses in their need to be profitable and only offer products that give that opportunity.
: Most recently (in fact, RIGHT NOW), I am looking for a facility that will allow me to set up an airgun range to accomodate twenty shooters at a time. I have nearly 60 kids who want to participate in a match. I have contacted numerous facilities (from armories and gyms to local halls) and the bottom line is a fear of liability that I cannot assauge.:
One thing that has helped in Wyoming is a state statute (WY 1-1-123) which says participation in sporting events carries certain inherent risks, which are borne by the participant. This was enacted many years ago through the auspices of the guides, outfitters, and ski areas. Takes legislative action, but may be a long term solution.
Hope some of this helps.
patmccoyagency-at-hotmail.com.46351.46322
I wish this were true in our area. We only had sven kids for our latest five week basic class, this out of a population base of about 25,000.
: In running between 14-18 competitions a year, not to mention clinics and a summer shooting camp, the problem that is continually emerging as a show stopper has been that of insurance. :
: There is simply NO INSURANCE COMPANY IN THE COUNTRY who will insure a shooting event for an individual or small club FOR ANY PRICE. :
NRA offers a program for affiliated clubs, however not all companies are licensed in all states. a non-NRA program we are currently looking into is offered by "T.H.E. Insurance company". Check with your state.
:The only insurance I've been able to get has been a result of piggy-backing my events with umbrella organizations. :
Is your club part of an adult club? If so, the adult club policy should extend to your programs. Check with your agent, or the company directly.
: The problem I'm running into, however, is that those umbrella organizations only cover members of that organization (thereby making it very difficult to run an open match).:
I'm not sure what you are trying to accomplish. You write about liability insurance being a problem, however the above scentence looks as if you are looking for "accident or medical" coverage for the participants. These are to totally different things. Liability insurance protects the operators of a program if they are liable for injuries or damages to others. Protection for the participants should be borne by the participants themselves.
: So, What do we do? What are YOU doing? :
Our junior club is a division of a senior club, and the senior club carries the coverage. The senios club also puts on all the classes, matches, shooting booth at the local fair, hunter safety, etc.
: I would like to see the NRA or USAS assist us in sponsoring matches by helping us obtain insurance. :
NRA has a program, but I suspect that USAS cannot offer anything becasue their membership basi is so low that no insurance company is willing to talk to them.
: When I look at other national governing bodies, I see them doing just that. USA Hockey (a sport with serious injuries) has insurance for its affiliated leagues and even its affiliated members. If they can do it, why can't our governing body? :
NRA does offer a liability program for it's affiliates clubs, however I wonder again if you are looking for "accident or medical" coverage (something that should be handled on an individual basis -- personal rights entail personal responsibility).
: Interestingly enough, the insurance companies themselves group shooting injuries in the same category as table tennis and bowling. So, why won't they insure us? Not because they fear accidents. It's because they fear that some whacko will purposely shoot someone. :
More likely that the numbers of participants are so small, and spread over so large an area, that there is little chance for an underwriting profit for the companies. Remember, insurance companies are no different than other businesses in their need to be profitable and only offer products that give that opportunity.
: Most recently (in fact, RIGHT NOW), I am looking for a facility that will allow me to set up an airgun range to accomodate twenty shooters at a time. I have nearly 60 kids who want to participate in a match. I have contacted numerous facilities (from armories and gyms to local halls) and the bottom line is a fear of liability that I cannot assauge.:
One thing that has helped in Wyoming is a state statute (WY 1-1-123) which says participation in sporting events carries certain inherent risks, which are borne by the participant. This was enacted many years ago through the auspices of the guides, outfitters, and ski areas. Takes legislative action, but may be a long term solution.
Hope some of this helps.
patmccoyagency-at-hotmail.com.46351.46322
-
akihmsa
Re: It's not the anti-gunners, it's the liability that will
The liability stems from the acceptance of multi million dollar awards to participants in bad behavior. Until this trend is reversed I do not expect to see affordable insurance.
For example a "friend" (I use this term very loosely as no real friend will do this!)picks up a loaded gun, pellet, bb, firearm, points it at his or her friend and pulls the trigger. To add insult to the injury we can find people to sit on a jury that will find the manufacturer of the gun liable (legally responsible) for the intentional act of the miscreant!!
Until this trend changes I do not expect the situation to get any better. The reason Hockey has less problems even though they have a much higher incidence of injury and death than does the shooting sports, is due to the jury factor. It is not difficult to find people who literally hate guns, while knowing absolutely nothing about them, especially in large metropolitan areas. Hockey does not have anywhere near the same stigma nor has it suffered years of negative press. In Katy's 4-H example Horse and livestock has nearly all of the injury yet is easier to get access to facilities than is the Shooting Sports, even in Alaska where firearms are extremely common. Reality doesn't enter in to injury claims. Many more people are hurt and killed on skateboards, skiing, and other activities yet the awards handed out to those injured in these activities are much lower. This is the main problem as I see it.
Perception is becoming Reality. The trend can be reversed by constantly getting the word out that the Shooting Sports has a safety record unrivaled in competitive sports. The message must be constant and put a happy face on what we know is a safe and positive sport. All of the shooting sports need to quit putting in some much energy on changing rules and equipment and put that energy into promoting a positive image of the Shooting Sports. : Okay guys, I want some input from the readership. I've been listening to folks moan and groan about the demise of our sport for years. I've always maintained a positive, 'can do' attitude throughout this and done my best to prove the nay-sayers wrong.
: I've NEVER found that there was a disinterest in the sport itself. As a coach, I've always experienced that there is never a shortage of kids who want to shoot (sometimes a shortage of facilities, equipment or adults, but NOT kids).
: In running between 14-18 competitions a year, not to mention clinics and a summer shooting camp, the problem that is continually emerging as a show stopper has been that of insurance.
: There is simply NO INSURANCE COMPANY IN THE COUNTRY who will insure a shooting event for an individual or small club FOR ANY PRICE. The only insurance I've been able to get has been a result of piggy-backing my events with umbrella organizations.
: The problem I'm running into, however, is that those umbrella organizations only cover members of that organization (thereby making it very difficult to run an open match).
: So, What do we do? What are YOU doing?
: I would like to see the NRA or USAS assist us in sponsoring matches by helping us obtain insurance.
: When I look at other national governing bodies, I see them doing just that. USA Hockey (a sport with serious injuries) has insurance for its affiliated leagues and even its affiliated members. If they can do it, why can't our governing body?
: If the sport dwindles, it won't be because of lack of interest, bad laws, or anti-gunners. It'll be because there won't be any sites that we can hold our events. No one wants to take the chance.
: Interestingly enough, the insurance companies themselves group shooting injuries in the same category as table tennis and bowling. So, why won't they insure us? Not because they fear accidents. It's because they fear that some whacko will purposely shoot someone.
: Most recently (in fact, RIGHT NOW), I am looking for a facility that will allow me to set up an airgun range to accomodate twenty shooters at a time. I have nearly 60 kids who want to participate in a match. I have contacted numerous facilities (from armories and gyms to local halls) and the bottom line is a fear of liability that I cannot assauge.
: If you have a great idea, let me know. If not, help me convince the powers that be at the NRA and USAS to help us grow the sport and sponsor matches. There is a NEED out there for some coverage. Let's get it!
.46354.46322
For example a "friend" (I use this term very loosely as no real friend will do this!)picks up a loaded gun, pellet, bb, firearm, points it at his or her friend and pulls the trigger. To add insult to the injury we can find people to sit on a jury that will find the manufacturer of the gun liable (legally responsible) for the intentional act of the miscreant!!
Until this trend changes I do not expect the situation to get any better. The reason Hockey has less problems even though they have a much higher incidence of injury and death than does the shooting sports, is due to the jury factor. It is not difficult to find people who literally hate guns, while knowing absolutely nothing about them, especially in large metropolitan areas. Hockey does not have anywhere near the same stigma nor has it suffered years of negative press. In Katy's 4-H example Horse and livestock has nearly all of the injury yet is easier to get access to facilities than is the Shooting Sports, even in Alaska where firearms are extremely common. Reality doesn't enter in to injury claims. Many more people are hurt and killed on skateboards, skiing, and other activities yet the awards handed out to those injured in these activities are much lower. This is the main problem as I see it.
Perception is becoming Reality. The trend can be reversed by constantly getting the word out that the Shooting Sports has a safety record unrivaled in competitive sports. The message must be constant and put a happy face on what we know is a safe and positive sport. All of the shooting sports need to quit putting in some much energy on changing rules and equipment and put that energy into promoting a positive image of the Shooting Sports. : Okay guys, I want some input from the readership. I've been listening to folks moan and groan about the demise of our sport for years. I've always maintained a positive, 'can do' attitude throughout this and done my best to prove the nay-sayers wrong.
: I've NEVER found that there was a disinterest in the sport itself. As a coach, I've always experienced that there is never a shortage of kids who want to shoot (sometimes a shortage of facilities, equipment or adults, but NOT kids).
: In running between 14-18 competitions a year, not to mention clinics and a summer shooting camp, the problem that is continually emerging as a show stopper has been that of insurance.
: There is simply NO INSURANCE COMPANY IN THE COUNTRY who will insure a shooting event for an individual or small club FOR ANY PRICE. The only insurance I've been able to get has been a result of piggy-backing my events with umbrella organizations.
: The problem I'm running into, however, is that those umbrella organizations only cover members of that organization (thereby making it very difficult to run an open match).
: So, What do we do? What are YOU doing?
: I would like to see the NRA or USAS assist us in sponsoring matches by helping us obtain insurance.
: When I look at other national governing bodies, I see them doing just that. USA Hockey (a sport with serious injuries) has insurance for its affiliated leagues and even its affiliated members. If they can do it, why can't our governing body?
: If the sport dwindles, it won't be because of lack of interest, bad laws, or anti-gunners. It'll be because there won't be any sites that we can hold our events. No one wants to take the chance.
: Interestingly enough, the insurance companies themselves group shooting injuries in the same category as table tennis and bowling. So, why won't they insure us? Not because they fear accidents. It's because they fear that some whacko will purposely shoot someone.
: Most recently (in fact, RIGHT NOW), I am looking for a facility that will allow me to set up an airgun range to accomodate twenty shooters at a time. I have nearly 60 kids who want to participate in a match. I have contacted numerous facilities (from armories and gyms to local halls) and the bottom line is a fear of liability that I cannot assauge.
: If you have a great idea, let me know. If not, help me convince the powers that be at the NRA and USAS to help us grow the sport and sponsor matches. There is a NEED out there for some coverage. Let's get it!
.46354.46322
-
Richard Ashmore
Re: It's not the anti-gunners, it's the liability that will
: I agree with Michele and have wondered for years why there is no insurance plan from the NRA or USAS or IPSC or??? for clubs and matches, etc. Many other countries have this feature as part of their membership program/dues. I know NSRA in England does, and I am sure many other countries do as well. Why not the US?
NRA and USAS are IRC 501c tax exempt entities. Providing insurance is not part of their tax exempt purpose, so they don't do it.
govtmodel-at-budweiser.com.46356.46345
NRA and USAS are IRC 501c tax exempt entities. Providing insurance is not part of their tax exempt purpose, so they don't do it.
govtmodel-at-budweiser.com.46356.46345
-
Michèle
Re: It's not the anti-gunners, it's the liability that will
: NRA offers a program for affiliated clubs, however not all companies are licensed in all states. a non-NRA program we are currently looking into is offered by "T.H.E. Insurance company". Check with your state.
NRA's insurance is very limited and only covers members of the club itself. This does not help if I want to have a club sponsored event that is to be operated on another site with non-club members participating
: Is your club part of an adult club? If so, the adult club policy should extend to your programs. Check with your agent, or the company directly.
see above
: I'm not sure what you are trying to accomplish. You write about liability insurance being a problem, however the above scentence looks as if you are looking for "accident or medical" coverage for the participants. These are to totally different things. Liability insurance protects the operators of a program if they are liable for injuries or damages to others. Protection for the participants should be borne by the participants themselves.
To utilize a gym, etc., the owners of the big building will require proof of BOTH kinds of insurance before renting facilities.
: Our junior club is a division of a senior club, and the senior club carries the coverage. The senios club also puts on all the classes, matches, shooting booth at the local fair, hunter safety, etc.
We are also a division of a parent club. If you check your coverage (assuming it's through the NRA's program), you may be surprised to find that the shooting booth you run off site and open to non club members is NOT covered.
: NRA has a program, but I suspect that USAS cannot offer anything becasue their membership basi is so low that no insurance company is willing to talk to them.
I'd like them to try.... perhaps through the USOC they would find support or leverage.
:NRA does offer a liability program for it's affiliates clubs, however I wonder again if you are looking for "accident or medical" coverage (something that should be handled on an individual basis -- personal rights entail personal responsibility).
Again, to hold an event off-site with non members, this doesn't work
: One thing that has helped in Wyoming is a state statute (WY 1-1-123) which says participation in sporting events carries certain inherent risks, which are borne by the participant. This was enacted many years ago through the auspices of the guides, outfitters, and ski areas. Takes legislative action, but may be a long term solution.
that won't help me 'sell' my program to facilities that could accomodate large competitions
makpak3200-at-earthlink.net.46360.46351
NRA's insurance is very limited and only covers members of the club itself. This does not help if I want to have a club sponsored event that is to be operated on another site with non-club members participating
: Is your club part of an adult club? If so, the adult club policy should extend to your programs. Check with your agent, or the company directly.
see above
: I'm not sure what you are trying to accomplish. You write about liability insurance being a problem, however the above scentence looks as if you are looking for "accident or medical" coverage for the participants. These are to totally different things. Liability insurance protects the operators of a program if they are liable for injuries or damages to others. Protection for the participants should be borne by the participants themselves.
To utilize a gym, etc., the owners of the big building will require proof of BOTH kinds of insurance before renting facilities.
: Our junior club is a division of a senior club, and the senior club carries the coverage. The senios club also puts on all the classes, matches, shooting booth at the local fair, hunter safety, etc.
We are also a division of a parent club. If you check your coverage (assuming it's through the NRA's program), you may be surprised to find that the shooting booth you run off site and open to non club members is NOT covered.
: NRA has a program, but I suspect that USAS cannot offer anything becasue their membership basi is so low that no insurance company is willing to talk to them.
I'd like them to try.... perhaps through the USOC they would find support or leverage.
:NRA does offer a liability program for it's affiliates clubs, however I wonder again if you are looking for "accident or medical" coverage (something that should be handled on an individual basis -- personal rights entail personal responsibility).
Again, to hold an event off-site with non members, this doesn't work
: One thing that has helped in Wyoming is a state statute (WY 1-1-123) which says participation in sporting events carries certain inherent risks, which are borne by the participant. This was enacted many years ago through the auspices of the guides, outfitters, and ski areas. Takes legislative action, but may be a long term solution.
that won't help me 'sell' my program to facilities that could accomodate large competitions
makpak3200-at-earthlink.net.46360.46351
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Michèle
Re: It's not the anti-gunners, it's the liability that will
: NRA and USAS are IRC 501c tax exempt entities. Providing insurance is not part of their tax exempt purpose, so they don't do it.
USAS is also the National Governing Body for the shooting sports with a stated purpose of sport development. One cannot develop without competition. One cannot hold competitions without insurance.
makpak3200-at-earthlink.net.46361.46356
USAS is also the National Governing Body for the shooting sports with a stated purpose of sport development. One cannot develop without competition. One cannot hold competitions without insurance.
makpak3200-at-earthlink.net.46361.46356
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Richard
Re: It's not the anti-gunners, it's the liability that will
: USAS is also the National Governing Body for the shooting sports with a stated purpose of sport development. One cannot develop without competition. One cannot hold competitions without insurance.
Agreed; however, the need to have insurance for an event does not translate into the financial or legal ability to get in the business of selling insurance.
govtmodel-at-hotmail.com.46363.46361
Agreed; however, the need to have insurance for an event does not translate into the financial or legal ability to get in the business of selling insurance.
govtmodel-at-hotmail.com.46363.46361
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Jay V
Re: It's not the anti-gunners, it's the liability that will
: There is simply NO INSURANCE COMPANY IN THE COUNTRY who will insure a shooting event for an individual or small club FOR ANY PRICE.
Hi Michele,
Have you spoken to Carpenter Ins (410) 266-6750 MD ? They have a policy for shooting clubs. We pay $450 per year for our adult club and junior program covering up to about 60 members total.
On their policy they have a choice of covering "members only" or "members and non-members" if I recall correctly - with different prices. I don't know the extent of it, but I would think that it would cover events run by the club.
Jay Vergenz
IL
www.aiac-airguns.org
jverg-at-att.net.46364.46322
Hi Michele,
Have you spoken to Carpenter Ins (410) 266-6750 MD ? They have a policy for shooting clubs. We pay $450 per year for our adult club and junior program covering up to about 60 members total.
On their policy they have a choice of covering "members only" or "members and non-members" if I recall correctly - with different prices. I don't know the extent of it, but I would think that it would cover events run by the club.
Jay Vergenz
IL
www.aiac-airguns.org
jverg-at-att.net.46364.46322
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Bill Dutton
Re: It's not the anti-gunners, it's the liability that will
What about the NRA 'Sponsored' club and individual insurance:
http://www.locktonrisk.com/nrains/clubs.asp
bill.dutton-at-fmr.com.46366.46322
http://www.locktonrisk.com/nrains/clubs.asp
bill.dutton-at-fmr.com.46366.46322
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Pat McCoy
Re: It's not the anti-gunners, it's the liability that will
: NRA's insurance is very limited and only covers members of the club itself. This does not help if I want to have a club sponsored event that is to be operated on another site with non-club members participating:
The Northland Insurance Company policy issued through the auspices of the NRA is not a limited policy. It is like other commercial policies, in that it protects thr organization, it's executive officers and directors (as respects their duties as executive officers or directors), and "volunteer workers" while performing duties related to the coduct of the organization's business (see Setion II - Who Is An Insured, in the contract, page 9). This does leave a gap for your hired consultants (outside experts you usein your camps) if you pay them, but then they need to be covered under their own business liability policy.
The policy also offers coverage in the United States (including territories and possesions), Puerto Rico and Canada (page 13, Section V, Definitions). It also extends coverage to international airspace if in the course of travel to any of the above locations, and other parts of the world for goods or products sold in the above territory, as well as some coverage for offenses on the interrnet.
There is no etra cost for coverage away from your normal operating location, unless the lessor requires that they be named as an "Additional Insured" (this is not the same as requestions a "Certificate of Insurance").
: : I'm not sure what you are trying to accomplish. You write about liability insurance being a problem, however the above scentence looks as if you are looking for "accident or medical" coverage for the participants.
: To utilize a gym, etc., the owners of the big building will require proof of BOTH kinds of insurance before renting facilities.:
Are you certain? In this area the standard lease agreement requires proof of liability coverage by the leasing party, often with a "Certificate of Liability" to the lesssor (and occaionally with an Additional Insured clause). This is to be sure that any claims go against the policy of the operator of the activity, and not have to be picked up by the owner of the facility. It seems unusual that a lessor would require first party coverage. You should talk to your insurance professional (you must have an insurance agent in the club somewhere?), as insurance terms can be confusing when you don't use them all the time. I suspect what the lessors are asking is for a policy that will provide coverage for liability should a participant be injured during the competion due to liability (negligence) on the part of your activities. While many insurance policies offer a small amount of "medical payments" as a part of the liability coverage, the Northland policy has a specific exclusion for "a person while taking part in athletics".
: We are also a division of a parent club. If you check your coverage (assuming it's through the NRA's program), you may be surprised to find that the shooting booth you run off site and open to non club members is NOT covered.:
See above. There is no restriction in location other than those I've cited.
patmccoyagency-at-hotmail.com.46368.46360
The Northland Insurance Company policy issued through the auspices of the NRA is not a limited policy. It is like other commercial policies, in that it protects thr organization, it's executive officers and directors (as respects their duties as executive officers or directors), and "volunteer workers" while performing duties related to the coduct of the organization's business (see Setion II - Who Is An Insured, in the contract, page 9). This does leave a gap for your hired consultants (outside experts you usein your camps) if you pay them, but then they need to be covered under their own business liability policy.
The policy also offers coverage in the United States (including territories and possesions), Puerto Rico and Canada (page 13, Section V, Definitions). It also extends coverage to international airspace if in the course of travel to any of the above locations, and other parts of the world for goods or products sold in the above territory, as well as some coverage for offenses on the interrnet.
There is no etra cost for coverage away from your normal operating location, unless the lessor requires that they be named as an "Additional Insured" (this is not the same as requestions a "Certificate of Insurance").
: : I'm not sure what you are trying to accomplish. You write about liability insurance being a problem, however the above scentence looks as if you are looking for "accident or medical" coverage for the participants.
: To utilize a gym, etc., the owners of the big building will require proof of BOTH kinds of insurance before renting facilities.:
Are you certain? In this area the standard lease agreement requires proof of liability coverage by the leasing party, often with a "Certificate of Liability" to the lesssor (and occaionally with an Additional Insured clause). This is to be sure that any claims go against the policy of the operator of the activity, and not have to be picked up by the owner of the facility. It seems unusual that a lessor would require first party coverage. You should talk to your insurance professional (you must have an insurance agent in the club somewhere?), as insurance terms can be confusing when you don't use them all the time. I suspect what the lessors are asking is for a policy that will provide coverage for liability should a participant be injured during the competion due to liability (negligence) on the part of your activities. While many insurance policies offer a small amount of "medical payments" as a part of the liability coverage, the Northland policy has a specific exclusion for "a person while taking part in athletics".
: We are also a division of a parent club. If you check your coverage (assuming it's through the NRA's program), you may be surprised to find that the shooting booth you run off site and open to non club members is NOT covered.:
See above. There is no restriction in location other than those I've cited.
patmccoyagency-at-hotmail.com.46368.46360
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Joacim
Re: It's not the anti-gunners, it's the liability that will
Reading the other threads and some previous posts it seems like there is one major problem - the public opinion about our sport.
The governing bodies seems to be more concerned with marketing to make more money than to to make the sport in a better position with the public.
There is a need to change the mentality of the shooters and then project the positive attitude towards the public. Make major matches more public and invite the press to try the sport and to cover the event. When they open their mind and do some reporting about it then the public will see that there is a sport called shooting that has nothing to do with the crime and shootings they currently associate it with.
We should all ask USAS and NRA to help out making matches more open and more interesting to the public and to help out by promoting the athlete part of the sport. It wouldn't be too bad having a decent size ad in one of the major news papers showing Matt Emmons, Rhode and some other top shooters saying that we are athletes too and we will compete for an Olympic Gold next summer. Include some links on the ad where people can find more information about the sport and where the athletic part is emphaiszed not the gun part.
If it is not apparent yet, I'll have to tell you that I believe strongly that it would be possible to turn the public opinion about the sport if just everyone came together and focused on the main goal - survival of the sport - instead of discussing fractions between the sport or the pistol/rifle/shotgun split within the sport.
Enough rambling - but I hope someone sees my points so we can turn the public opinion around.
Joacim Trybom
.46373.46322
The governing bodies seems to be more concerned with marketing to make more money than to to make the sport in a better position with the public.
There is a need to change the mentality of the shooters and then project the positive attitude towards the public. Make major matches more public and invite the press to try the sport and to cover the event. When they open their mind and do some reporting about it then the public will see that there is a sport called shooting that has nothing to do with the crime and shootings they currently associate it with.
We should all ask USAS and NRA to help out making matches more open and more interesting to the public and to help out by promoting the athlete part of the sport. It wouldn't be too bad having a decent size ad in one of the major news papers showing Matt Emmons, Rhode and some other top shooters saying that we are athletes too and we will compete for an Olympic Gold next summer. Include some links on the ad where people can find more information about the sport and where the athletic part is emphaiszed not the gun part.
If it is not apparent yet, I'll have to tell you that I believe strongly that it would be possible to turn the public opinion about the sport if just everyone came together and focused on the main goal - survival of the sport - instead of discussing fractions between the sport or the pistol/rifle/shotgun split within the sport.
Enough rambling - but I hope someone sees my points so we can turn the public opinion around.
Joacim Trybom
.46373.46322
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Richard
Re: It's not the anti-gunners, it's the liability that will
Hockey has more law suits filed against it in a single year than shooting has had in it's history. I think if you look around you can find insurance companies who will cover events. These usually are not your normal home or car insurance companies. Insurance companies work on hard data to figure out rates, if insurance companies thought guns were dangerous they would ask you about guns on your life insurance. The problem is not actually in the shooting at the event but the event itself, suits from people falling down or getting hit in the parking lot, and this is the same for all events and it is what makes insurance expensive.
.46374.46354
.46374.46354
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pilkguns
Pressing for press and the good of the sport
Joacim,
I hope you will not take this as a personal attack because it’s not really, although I realize it may come off sounding this way.
I think you, as someone involved in the industry, should be more careful about casting stones especially with broad statements you have no knowledge of. On the other hand, I am glad to see you concerned and wanting to help, unlike some dealers who only want to take and never give to the sport.
Trying to get publicity for our sport has been done on a regular basis. I have personally been present when Scott Engen was making phone calls to various members of the local press trying to get some press for a World Cup with 70 countries competing. You would think that might be newsworthy, in a local paper or TV but how many showed up? Yep… zero. I personally have made those phone calls to trying to get press about the positive youth events at Wolf Creek. It just ain’t easy.
To be honest, its very hard to get editors of gun magazines interested in doing stories about “our” particular niche of shooting because its not of general interest to the average gun owner. Been there done that too (Don’t get me wrong, I am still trying ). But multiply that times the average newspaper editors with an anti gun bias, or even a neutral one….. and the interest is just not there. Yes, you will occasionally get a positive story here and there, and everyone needs to keep trying for coverage of their events at the local level, but I really don’t see that this is a viable way for us to really change public opinion of sport. The average public doesn’t know our sport exists. Or care.
Placing ads in newspapers??? Do you have any idea what this would cost? And how many people are really going to be interested enough to actually read such an ad? Talk about marketing to make money just to pay for newspaper ads? They have enough trouble raising enough funds to operate the programs the do run. There are ways I think to make our sport more popular, little by little but by in large that will come from the shooting community and not the public at large.
Realistically, the shooting sports that have grown and gotten publicity in the last decade have had one thing in common. Money---- cash prizes to the winners. I am really considering make some large prizes for next years nationals….. but the current exchange rate with the Euro is killing our profit margins, I am sure I don’t have to tell you this…. And really have to question whether I can afford to step up with such an idea to help grow the sport.
Now I could go on and should, but I have got to go work on my main charity project right now, trying to get Wolf Creek saved.
Best Regards Overall
Scott
.46375.46373
I hope you will not take this as a personal attack because it’s not really, although I realize it may come off sounding this way.
I think you, as someone involved in the industry, should be more careful about casting stones especially with broad statements you have no knowledge of. On the other hand, I am glad to see you concerned and wanting to help, unlike some dealers who only want to take and never give to the sport.
Trying to get publicity for our sport has been done on a regular basis. I have personally been present when Scott Engen was making phone calls to various members of the local press trying to get some press for a World Cup with 70 countries competing. You would think that might be newsworthy, in a local paper or TV but how many showed up? Yep… zero. I personally have made those phone calls to trying to get press about the positive youth events at Wolf Creek. It just ain’t easy.
To be honest, its very hard to get editors of gun magazines interested in doing stories about “our” particular niche of shooting because its not of general interest to the average gun owner. Been there done that too (Don’t get me wrong, I am still trying ). But multiply that times the average newspaper editors with an anti gun bias, or even a neutral one….. and the interest is just not there. Yes, you will occasionally get a positive story here and there, and everyone needs to keep trying for coverage of their events at the local level, but I really don’t see that this is a viable way for us to really change public opinion of sport. The average public doesn’t know our sport exists. Or care.
Placing ads in newspapers??? Do you have any idea what this would cost? And how many people are really going to be interested enough to actually read such an ad? Talk about marketing to make money just to pay for newspaper ads? They have enough trouble raising enough funds to operate the programs the do run. There are ways I think to make our sport more popular, little by little but by in large that will come from the shooting community and not the public at large.
Realistically, the shooting sports that have grown and gotten publicity in the last decade have had one thing in common. Money---- cash prizes to the winners. I am really considering make some large prizes for next years nationals….. but the current exchange rate with the Euro is killing our profit margins, I am sure I don’t have to tell you this…. And really have to question whether I can afford to step up with such an idea to help grow the sport.
Now I could go on and should, but I have got to go work on my main charity project right now, trying to get Wolf Creek saved.
Best Regards Overall
Scott
.46375.46373
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David
Re: It's not the anti-gunners, it's the liability that will
In response to pilkguns comments on media attention, I do believe it can be done, and I do believe that it is the fastest way to solve many of the problems facing the shooting sports. Somehow my team (high school) has had several articles in the two different newspapers since April 2003. I can think of 3 that we have had, ranging from coverage of the TN state 3p air championship match to the Rifle Classic, held in October. We even had a 3 minute segment on the local NBC affiliate during the 6 oclock news. Now, if a high school team with ten members can make it all the way to TV news, it seems that it should be doable almost everywhere. The problem isn't the sport in my opinion. The problem lies in finding the right sports writer or the right person with the right connections to get a writer or a reporter interested. Our first article was written by a guy who became quite interested in the sport once he found out about it, and he has done two articles already. I recall that Jason Parker was interviewed at the 2002 USAS Nationals after he won the air rifle event. So, it is doable, we just need to find the correct strategy and publicize it so that all clubs, teams, and events know how to get the coverage. If people knew how to make the media interested, they would have more luck in getting the coverage. I can't say what makes one reporter so excited about a sport, but there are outsiders who want to know more and are willing to write. Perhaps USA Shooting needs to investigate what the catch phrases are needed to persuade local writers to cover an event. When they find out, they need to tell everyone else.
Just my thoughts and my team's recent successes. I do believe that increased media attention will help our sport, but I think many people are just not taking the right approach to getting it.
deamiot-at-aol.com.46378.46373
Just my thoughts and my team's recent successes. I do believe that increased media attention will help our sport, but I think many people are just not taking the right approach to getting it.
deamiot-at-aol.com.46378.46373
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HBP
I agree with you 100%
It's not the liability, it's the "litigation mentality" which is a problem. People just don't seem to be prepared to take responsibility for themselves.
.46386.46354
.46386.46354