Is it just me or is this forum slowly dying ?

[Ricardo]

I noticed a definite slowing down on this forum since the closings started, but I have assumed that most of us aren't shooting as much and therefore have fewer questions and observations.

I will add that atomicgale has behaved just as atrociously as he accuses oddjack of doing. It's funny to read his post blowing up and then claiming that if you attend matches people there are welcoming and helpful.

I wonder if this is the classic "nice in person, jerk online" thing we tend to accuse other people of doing. And seriously, the future of nations?

[6string]

It may be that the forum is dying. If so, I think it must be that our sport(s) is. Spray and pray seems more attractive than the ability to actually hit your target.

This pretty much sums it up. Last year I quit a club where I had been a member for 20 yrs. We used to run all the int'l matches: Free, Air, Standard, Sport, Centerfire, and even Rapid Fire. These were registered matches run through USAS and/or NRA.
Now the club is taken over by the tacticool boneheads. We had stray bullets leaving the building, through the roof and walls, out into the local residential and business areas. I even got elected to the executive board to try and fix things. Unfixable.
So, I quit.

The problem is, what we are talking about is symptomatic of much bigger societal and cultural problems.
This is the age of instant gratification, entitlement, and "me too".

I see it in academia. Dumb, illiterate incoming collegiate freshmen getting dumber and ruder with each new class.

Spray and Pray, zombie targets, etc. is the extent of their intellect.

[roycele]

It may be that the forum is dying. If so, I think it must be that our sport(s) is. Spray and pray seems more attractive than the ability to actually hit your target.

This pretty much sums it up. Last year I quit a club where I had been a member for 20 yrs. We used to run all the int'l matches: Free, Air, Standard, Sport, Centerfire, and even Rapid Fire. These were registered matches run through USAS and/or NRA.
Now the club is taken over by the tacticool boneheads. We had stray bullets leaving the building, through the roof and walls, out into the local residential and business areas. I even got elected to the executive board to try and fix things. Unfixable.
So, I quit.

The problem is, what we are talking about is symptomatic of much bigger societal and cultural problems.
This is the age of instant gratification, entitlement, and "me too".

I see it in academia. Dumb, illiterate incoming collegiate freshmen getting dumber and ruder with each new class.

Spray and Pray, zombie targets, etc. is the extent of their intellect.

sigh...sad☹

[Mike M.]

The irony being that if you read the old books on combat shooting, they all advised a solid grounding in the precision disciplines. ISSF and Bullseye are the equivalent of ballet - they lay a rock-solid foundation on which to build, whatever direction you take.

[prowling]

Yeah, it’s sad to admit, but the writing was on the wall for the precision disciplines when they began losing interest at the club level back in the ‘80s. I know for a fact I am the only international style pistol shooter at my club, and its membership numbers nearly 1000. But even for the conventional disciplines, the interest is extremely rare. That same club offers a great smallbore rifle match every month, this past event, there were 6 shooters on the line. 1 of them was a club member. I know you might immediately conclude that corona virus is to blame for such a low turnout ... but his is South Carolina we’re talking about y’all. The stay home recommendation isn’t much of a factor. I initially wanted to start a 50’ bullseye pistol league and hold some matches, but I was able to secure the definite maybes of only two or three people at the IDPA matches I attended ... matches that have 50+ shooters every month. I don’t blame action shooting for this attrition. Over the years I’ve come to realize that for most folks nowadays, the idea of precision shooting is just not that interesting. Certainly not “fun.” It doesn’t go CLANG! ... there aren’t any doors to kick in ... nothing is sliding, falling, or going poof! In short, to most people? It’s boring. Akin to watching paint dry on the barn door.

That said, I also feel like this forum, and others like it, are the last bastion and refuge for us “old-timers” who aren’t on social media and do remember the old days, when the local bullseye matches had multiple relays on each day of the weekend.

I personally am pleased that this is still both a reasonably active and well-mannered forum, with many knowledgeable participants, and much to offer to both new and old shooters alike ...

[SPPcoach]

Spray and pray seems more attractive than the ability to actually hit your target.

Hey! I resemble that remark. :-)
But it do love taking my more skilled athletes to Bullseye.
Coach Robin Taylor told me that Bullseye is like weight lifiting. If you are on the football team no one LIKES to life weights, but they KNOW that it will make them a better more competetive player. He has his athletes shooting Bullseye in the winter because it makes them stronger all around competitors.
He has one of the winningest teams in SASP.

Well, I will say that the sport of precision shooting is not welcoming to newcomers ...

I take my youth action shooting athletes to Bullseye at PRGC a couple of times per year.
Their reaction is always the same.
1. That is a lot harder than they thought it would be.
2. It was fun.
3. They want to do it again.
I have found that the PEOPLE at PRGC have been VERY welcoming.
The "not-welcoming part has to do with the logistics.
I dont take my kids up there until i have had them for at LEAST a year. I am not interested in pissing off the old guard with an athlete that is not yet disciplined, ill preparred, doesnt understand the fundamentals or match rules. That would not be fair to those competitors that take the match seriously. So that keeps the newbies away.
The obstacles for Bullseye and Precision:
1. No formal training for new shooters/youth. Where are the teams? Every other sport has teams; swim, scoccer, baseball . . . In Bullseye they just get thrown in the deep end of the pool at a match and flounder. Not fun for anyone. Where does the practice and teaching happen? Going to a match is like showing up for a college class and the professor hands you the final exam without a semester worth of teaching. That is why I teach them for a year+ before going to a Bullseye match.
2. There is no training for adults that want to help but dont know where to get training. Today trying to learn Bullseye is similar to the blacksmithing training path. Find an old master that will spend years to teach the apprentice to become a Journeyman, but you cant do that type of training on a bigger scale.
3. No National youth program to fill the Olympic pipeline. Olympic dreams are a powerful motivator for kids and parents. Not many kids that play pee wee football ever wear the SuperBowl ring. But they DID think about it. Same with shooting.
4. No athlete discounts or scholarships to make the program more affordable.
5. No academic affiliation.
Those faults that I listed, that IS what we are doing, and why we are suceeding.

https://sssfonline.org/the-2019-scholas ... %20history.

I know action shooting is not everyones cup of tea, but most of the old guard realize that without a program to embrace and create the next gen of gun owning enthisiasts, we are doomed!

And btw, we are starting to fill the Olympic pipeline with over of our 70 athletes participating in JO's WAG and State precision matches this academic year. :-)

I love air pistol; it is in my garage so no travel time, weather is not an issue, ammo is cheap.
But it is a harder sell to my athletes.

[Sa-tevo]

The irony being that if you read the old books on combat shooting, they all advised a solid grounding in the precision disciplines. ISSF and Bullseye are the equivalent of ballet - they lay a rock-solid foundation on which to build, whatever direction you take.

I noticed that too in the older books. There are instructors that have been on two-way ranges that think that is a good idea for some reason.

[gimgim]

I went to the range today for the first time after 4 months (the range - outdoor - reopened only one week ago, reservation only, no shared items, masks, benches sanitized after the shooter leaves, etc...). I assume COVID slowed down many activities.

[ProdigalSon]

It may be that the forum is dying. If so, I think it must be that our sport(s) is. Spray and pray seems more attractive than the ability to actually hit your target.

This pretty much sums it up. Last year I quit a club where I had been a member for 20 yrs. We used to run all the int'l matches: Free, Air, Standard, Sport, Centerfire, and even Rapid Fire. These were registered matches run through USAS and/or NRA.
Now the club is taken over by the tacticool boneheads. We had stray bullets leaving the building, through the roof and walls, out into the local residential and business areas. I even got elected to the executive board to try and fix things. Unfixable.
So, I quit.

The problem is, what we are talking about is symptomatic of much bigger societal and cultural problems.
This is the age of instant gratification, entitlement, and "me too".

I see it in academia. Dumb, illiterate incoming collegiate freshmen getting dumber and ruder with each new class.

Spray and Pray, zombie targets, etc. is the extent of their intellect.

As far as the forum activity goes, I'm sure that the COVID issue has slowed things down. My home range only recently reopened; for a few months there was really just not much in the world of shooting (or really anything) going on. With that being said, there is definitely an attitude problem, not just with (some) people on this site, but in the shooting world in general.

Sure, I'll roll my eyes a little at the zombie targets. They're silly, and I don't think most of the people shooting at them would disagree. However, people like our good friend 6string can be VERY off-putting to new shooters. When I shot with the Oregon State pistol team a few years ago, the deciding factor between that and the rifle team (rifle and pistol were run as separate clubs with separate staff) was that the rifle coach was an unpleasant man with similarly expressed disdain for anything other than the world as he wanted it to be. Thankfully the pistol coach was the opposite - cordial, welcoming, happy to help you shoot bullseye or just have fun, depending on what you wanted out of the club. If we're talking generations, get this - my generation, for the most part, gives absolutely no credence to the idea that we should respect people just because they're older than we are. Give us respect and you'll get it in return. Drag on us like this and we won't give two cents for your opinion on what you think is a worthwhile use of our time.

Somewhat related to this is an exclusivity problem. I moved to Colorado recently, and in looking for shooting clubs, one thing that I found is that some of the more "traditional" shooting clubs WILL NOT LET ANYONE NEW IN. Many of these have membership limits in their bylaws that result in waiting lists of months or years. Plus, you often have to be "sponsored" by an existing club member. These kind of clubs are unlikely to get new members, because we'll go elsewhere - specifically, rental ranges. By that, I mean, the typical gun store with a range attached where you can rent a gun and a lane for a Jefferson or two. I've never seen one of those with a membership waiting list, or sponsorship, or any of this other stuff. You go in, you take their safety orientation, you pay for your membership, you shoot. Easy. However, these kinds of ranges are very "tactical" oriented, generally, so they're not going to guide people towards the precision disciplines (other than maybe PRS). My home range is like this - https://www.libertyrange.com/. Wonderful facility, but I'm one of only a handful of members that I know of who shoots smallbore, and I'm almost certain I'm the only person they've ever had practice 10m AP there on a regular basis.

[deadeyedick]

Surprising that more investors aren’t looking at opening New Ranges from a commercial perspective.

[Rover]

A funny little story: While at the Desert Midwinter last year I spied a couple of spectators at the .45 match. I assume they had drifted over from one of the other events that go on at the club and happened to be watching one of the top military Bullseye competitors in the country.

When he started shooting (at 50 yards) I thought they were going to wet themselves. They were dancing about and hugging themselves, giggling like a couple of schoolgirls. I was going to go to the office and see if there were any Depends. They even walked downrange during scoring, gaping in astonishment.

Obviously, they hadn't known that this level of shooting even existed, and in their own backyard, too.

[gimgim]

> Surprising that more investors aren’t looking at opening New Ranges from a commercial perspective.

In CA, I doubt a sport range can be profitable (wild guess). The place where I go (it's a county park) charges $15 for a lane, unlimited time and since COVID, $6 for 2h. When full (weekends), I don't think they make more than $2000/day, and there are 5+ people working there.

Rental ranges are quite different, with rentals and sale of guns/ammo/accessories (rentals have restrictions though, you can't rent if you go alone).
If I wanted to invest, I would rather go for paintball or laser tag.

[gimgim]

> Now the club is taken over by the tacticool boneheads...
> Spray and Pray, zombie targets, etc. is the extent of their intellect.

When I started shooting, 35 years ago, we were looking at rapid fire and any caliber other than .22 exactly in the same way :-)
May be things have changed less than we think.

[sillymike]

Shooting (whether it be precision or what-not) seems to be in the same boat as motorcycling... at least when it comes to the under 25 younger crowds... (sorry, don't mean to generalize, only my personal experience)
- Why go-out and do something, when you can stay at home and play-at-doing-something.

Me: Want to go hike up such and such mountain?
Kid: Why? If you go to Google, they have a VR-360 view from the top... It's quite nice actually...

[bberg7794]

Please comment if you have noticed not only lethargic activity but diminished input from all but the few stalwarts.

I don't mean to be contrary, but if one scrolls down to the bottom of the index page it says:

"Most users ever online was 590 on Fri May 08, 2020 1:56 pm"

Most traffic ever in May of this year. Maybe those folks just aren't posting anything, or maybe they stop by looking for something they don't find?

I agree that precision disciplines do not seem to be attracting many new, younger members. My current club has had a small, dedicated adult group of winter air rifle (and pistol, our first season) shooters for five seasons now, but we have had difficulty growing. We pick up maybe a member or so a year, but have also lost a couple. This past winter we had two new shooters join us and also buy their own sporter air rifles, but sadly is was only a few weeks before we shut down for Covid. Hope they return when we can resume our indoor shooting.

[Ade C]

I've recently joined here because it's a similar situation in the UK. I'm active on a couple of airgun forums, one of which (https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/umarexboysclubforum/)
runs free competitions including 6yd and 10m bullseye. We really struggle to get new people entering the competitions, as most shooters just seem to like informal benchrest plinking (how boring!) or aimlessly blatting at cans with their Co2 replicas. Even though our competitions are free, honesty based, and very accessible (print your target and shoot at home), some people still regard this as too formal!

[rkittine]

I am very new here so I do not know what the site might have been like in the past. As touch as people think New York is, we have thousands of pistol owners in just the one county that I live in. With the exception of maybe a Benjamin Air Rifle or a Crossman Pellet Pistol, I don't see anyone active in the area shooting competitive air rifle or pistol. Just might be I don't know about it.

I have been shooting since the 60s, but other than Registered Skeet and Registered 1,000 Yard CF Benchrest, have not competited. I have found three Bullseye Leagues that I will start shooting in come September and we now have at least 5 guys with Free Pistols in my home club, so I am hoping to come up with a Free Pistol League or at least some club shoots.

Any other Long Island or Manhattan shooters on here? Any suggestions on how to get started with a new league or club shoot?

Bob

[Oledawg]

Possible looking at other countries and see how they are attracting younger shooters which would give the US shooting community some ideas. I’ve been watching the 2017, 2018 and 2019 European and World Championships and there sure a lot of young shooters. The 2019 Men’s AP was won by a 17 or 18 year old from India. It was his first championship and he set a world record. Lot’s of young shooter from India, Korea, China just to name a few. I only saw a US team in a bronze metal match and they lost.

[trboat]

I believe I would say marksmanship as a (the..) specific meaning for firearms practice has been dying for a long time.
I have maybe half a dozen younger people who are in nearby shops who are interested in 'guns'.
Not one of them has any use for a .22 and marksmanship training.
They ask me on occasion about what to get and go a bit numb when I ask if they have a decent .22 rifle and pistol.
The standard discussions about learning trigger control on that platform is of almost no interest to them.
Split a case of .22- forget it- "oh I have a couple of hundred rounds- plenty to last a long time"...
They will jump in on 223 etc..

Rifle marksmanship is how I started out- NRA rifle matches back in the late 60's with a Win 52.
It is still where most all of my interest in firearms lie- just getting better at that basic discipline of marksmanship.
I suppose I got it from my father as he had got it from his.
As he was sending off to WWII his dad bought him a basic rifle marksmanship book (I guess he was assuming the military needed help in his training..).

If I were to be critical I would say much of the firearms community has gone down the tactical road in some sort of dystopian fantasy.
Young people are idolizing a version of John Wick as what they think of with firearms.
Poor souls don't seem to get it that these films are fantasies.

Drop in an active knife or gun forum:

Weird very serious discussion over the advantages of tanto points on a EDC knife.
Guns are the same- somehow most have fallen into this trap.

Marksmanship training like the Boy Scouts had is simply not enough to capture the imagination and the whole industry has been taken over by just that- an imagined fantasy dreamed up about facing some adversary like in the old west...

The closest I have seen on this forum about "wound channel" is someone or another wondering how to get paper to punch cleaner holes so scoring is simpler.
Sorry folks that is simply not gonna cut it.
‘Kids these days eh..‘, but....

I believe it is important to recognize the gradual change in how arms are viewed in the US from the 70’s on.
Let’s just say that discussion should remain absent from this forum..

[porkchop]

When is the last time you've heard of a big U.S. gun maker building a super accurate 22 to compete with 208s , AW93 etc. or even the M41. Air pistols are the same, never happens, but look at all the plastic concealed carry self defense pistols. These buyers think they can protect themselves with them because they possess them.
Stan