rifle fit for smallbore prone shooting

[Racingt]

Dear all,
I’m sure this has been covered many times, so apologies.
I’m a returning shooter, after a 38 year gap, hoping to recapture the glory days and scores of my youth.
Probably likely to buy a secondhand rifle to begin with, maybe even a Martini International again. But I have no idea how to ensure a rifle fit is correct for me. My first rifle (which cost me more than my car) had a stock which was too long. The current club rifle has a stock which is way too short.
Is there a thread or website that covers this topic?
Thanks in advance!

[rgibson]

Websites and threads are great but I would also recommend two books. “Prone and Long Range Rifle Shooting” by Nancy Tompkins and “Rifle, Steps to Success” by Launi Meili. The former is mostly Long Range/Palma and the latter is mostly Air Rifle. I picked up things from both books. Welcome back!

[Tim S]

If you can get into position with the rifle before purchase, or agree a trial period if you're buying by post (assuming a US buyer).

In terms of stock fit, the butt should be long enough that your trigger arm/shoulder aren't cramped. It's a good sign if your wrist is straight, or as straight as the shape of the grip allows; BSA Martinis have an angled trigger pull and the grip almost always kinks the wrist.

Free Rifles, like an Anschutz 1913, tend to have shorter butts, modern alu stocks are a bit shorter still. However there is built in adjustment to lengthen, enough for any normal size adult. BSA Martinis tend to be fairly long, too long for a 5ft junior say, although as the stock is solid wood it's not hard to saw a slice off the end.

Beyond butt length, consider the size and shape of the cheekpiece. Most rifles made since the 1970s have an adjustable cheekpiece, at least for height.

[bshootmore]

If I were on the line and someone asked me to try my rifle for fit I would. Actually I have, and let them have a few shots too.
Go to the matches and ask a few experienced shooters.

[Racingt]

Thanks for the advice gentlemen, I shall bear that in mind, and will buy the books to help me cope during this enforced isolation that we are all bearing. I have already learnt what a 'Palma' rifle is, and that sounds huge fun also.

Now, I'm keen on the martini, because you can reload without removing your right elbow from the floor, due to the proximity of the loading port to the trigger.
To my (completely untutored) way of thinking, that was a particularly good feature.
As Anschutz grew in popularity, I expect people learnt to shoot very high scores whilst taking their elbows from the floor in order to reload. But it isn't quite perfect is it? you wouldn't change other contact points between shots would you?
So I'm interested in rifles with a close proximity of loading port and trigger.
Am I placing undue emphasis upon this aspect?


Thanks!

[Pat McCoy]

Am I placing undue emphasis upon this aspect?

Two schools of thought on this. One is to never disrupt your position (to which you seem to subscribe), and the other is to rebuild the position for each shot. Both work IF: in the first case you keep a mental eye on your position and don't let it gradually decay through movement of the butt; and in the second case you rebuild the position to the original starting point every time.

I always used the rebuilding, but I have short arms and could not do it any other way.

As with most things in POSITION rifle shooting, what you do depends greatly on your own body composition (not blindly trying to emulate someone else, even if they are world champs, who may be built differently than you are.).

[Tim S]

Now, I'm keen on the martini, because you can reload without removing your right elbow from the floor, due to the proximity of the loading port to the trigger.
To my (completely untutored) way of thinking, that was a particularly good feature.
So I'm interested in rifles with a close proximity of loading port and trigger.
Am I placing undue emphasis upon this aspect?

Thanks!

Maybe, but whether ISSF or NSRA/US NRA matches is relevant.

A short action is good, and there is less disturbance to load. Following Bleiker, then Grunig, all the major manufacturers have brought out shorter actions in the last few years. That said it's quite possible to shoot an Anschutz without disturbing one's position, it just takes a little practise: you have to move your arm, not the shoulder. Look on YouTube for a video of Sergei Martynov shooting; Martynov is an Olympic Champion, and 2x World Champion, but can barely reach the breech of his Anschutz.

So why does the rule book matter? Well, if you shoot NSRA/US NRA matches, you'll shoot multi-bull targets; that means you are re-establishing your position for each new target, and your trigger elbow is not in the exact same spot throughout a match. A short action is no hindrance, but a Match 54 or Walther KK is quite acceptable for many successful shooters.

Although BSA Martinis have a very short action, the rest of the rifle is much less ergonomic, and most are massively muzzle heavy (which matters to some). If it fits you all well and good, but there are no easy drop-in modern stocks if it doesn't fit; most club shooters would rather sell a kidney than modify the shape/size of the butt. While KISS is not a bad approach, being able to fit the stock to your position quickly and easily is advantageous. I shoot better groups with a stock that fits without compromise. Don't forget that a Supermatch type stock makes a bolt action easier to load than a traditional Prone stock, as the action is seated further back towards the grip. The butt hook also assists in locating the rifle after loading, and reducing displacement.

[Racingt]

Thanks Pat, Tim
I'll be shooting NSRA 25 yds, which does require a different position for each shot on the ten bull targets.
You both make good points re the position of the butt, which I agree, can easily shift with the flat, unadjustable type.
I will check there youtube video carefully - I'm beginning to understand your viewpoints that the position of the rifle in the shoulder is more critical than keeping the same elbow position. (which is then moved to get to the next target).
As I say, I've never had any coaching - I simply picked up the rifles and shot them, giving up before I fulfilled my potential due to family/job/life. My last average was 97.5, on 25yd prone.
I'm not knowledgeable about the Supermatch stocks - so will research this.
I'll be delighted if I can adapt my shooting technique to an Anschutz - not wedded to the BSA concept at all, particularly since they are unadjustable and I think it is a lottery buying an 40+ year old rifle.

[dc.fireman]

If you can get into position with the rifle before purchase, or agree a trial period if you're buying by post.

In terms of stock fit, the butt should be long enough that your trigger arm/shoulder aren't cramped. It's a good sign if your wrist is straight, or as straight as the shape of the grip allows; BSA Martinis have an angled trigger pull and the grip almost always kinks the wrist.

Free Rifles, like an Anschutz 1913, tend to have shorter butts, modern alu stocks are a bit shorter still. However there is built in adjustment to lengthen, enough for any normal size adult. BSA Martinis tend to be fairly long, too long for a 5ft junior say, although as the stock is solid wood it's not hard to saw a slice off the end.

Beyond butt length, consider the size and shape of the cheekpiece. Most rifles made since the 1970s have an adjustable cheekpiece, at least for height.

Best advice ever.

[Tim S]

Thanks Pat, Tim
I'll be shooting NSRA 25 yds, which does require a different position for each shot on the ten bull targets.
You both make good points re the position of the butt, which I agree, can easily shift with the flat, unadjustable type.
I will check there youtube video carefully - I'm beginning to understand your viewpoints that the position of the rifle in the shoulder is more critical than keeping the same elbow position. (which is then moved to get to the next target).
As I say, I've never had any coaching - I simply picked up the rifles and shot them, giving up before I fulfilled my potential due to family/job/life. My last average was 97.5, on 25yd prone.
I'm not knowledgeable about the Supermatch stocks - so will research this.
I'll be delighted if I can adapt my shooting technique to an Anschutz - not wedded to the BSA concept at all, particularly since they are unadjustable and I think it is a lottery buying an 40+ year old rifle.

Racing T,

Ah, you're another Brit. I tend to assume everyone is American.

If you haven't had coaching, ask around your club or county association for an NSRA qualified Instructor or Coach, to help you brush up*, and fit your own rifle. You can ask technical questions about your position on Web fora, but it can be tricky even with photos. I fully understand the impact of kids, fatherhood has seen my outdoor attendance nosedive.

While John Pugsley dominated the NSRA indoor rankings for several years shooting a Mk 3,he was practically the only one. Quite a few X and A class shots are going over to modern short actions, but that's more for accuracy; Bleiker, Grunig, and the new Walther shoot really well. For someone re-starting this capital outlay (£4,000+) may be excessive.

As for buying second hand, I don't think you need to worry too much. Yes a 1970s or 1980s barrel could be knackered by now, but find one with lower "mileage" and you'll be OK, especially at 25 yards.

*since you last shot the targets changed, and the 25 yard 10-ring is about 1mm smaller. I've got a conversion chart for averages somewhere, but it's about 1 point lower on the 1989 targets.

Tim

[Racingt]

Hi Tim,
Thank you - I'm getting some great advice from this forum.
I've recalled that the small bore club range blew down in the 1987 storms, and shortly afterwards the Government seized our full bore semi automatic rifles in 1988, so I effectively gave up shooting small bore rifle then, before the range was rebuilt - disillusioned and distracted by young family.
Regarding the 25yd target, yes, I've just checked, manually, the 10 ring is 13mill diameter (was 14), the 9 ring is 20 mill (was 22), the 8 ring is 25 (was 27) - so my average isn't comparable to modern day. Damn.
Having said that, the equipment available today is unbelievable, so there absolutely ought to be improvement, as in all branches of sport.
Thanks for the responses everyone, my thinking has moved forward on this topic.