Side stance pros & cons

[Akitaki]

Which are the pros and cons of a 180 side stance compared to a more "open", target facing one? We are talking about AP so I wouldn't really factor recoil in...

Is my understanding correct that athletes are moving towards the side stance? I started out using a complete 180 stance but I realized that my arm would probably be a little more steady with a more open stance...

[Rover]

An early post suggests that a too "sideways" stance restricts blood flow to the brain and tips the head destabilizing your balance while you are concentrating on the sights, so the problem could be:

" Dissociative Identity Disorder brought about by bilateral reduction of the substantia nigra from your stance, or induced by electrical stimulation of the right angular gyrus from aiming while in a theta brainwave state."

There are MANY pages on this subject. Do a Search. Just put in "Stance".

[dam8]

As I was reading, I glanced down and thought your reference said Dr Seuss

[jetpoweredchicken]

Rather than get into the "why" one way might work better than another, I suggest check out watch what the best in the world are doing. Much information here beyond stance.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gwrh8TigM3A

[Gwhite]

Just because everyone is doing it doesn't mean it's best for everyone. If somebody wins a gold medal, everyone copies their style, equipment, diet, etc., whether it suits them or not.

If I remember the story correctly, many years ago a free pistol shooter (whose name escapes me...) did very well with a palm-up horizontal grip, which was required for him due to an injury. He had the sights rotated 90 degrees as well. Lots of people dashed out and copied it (requiring major modifications to their pistols), only to discover that it didn't work for them.

The MEC book suggests that an in-line stance helps to make the recoil more vertical, with less twisting. That implies that it shouldn't make nearly as much difference in air pistol where recoil is minimal and a quick recovery is unnecessary. Yet lots of people insist on shooting it that way.

If you believe in the importance of "natural point of aim", the only way the vast majority of people can shoot that way is if they train so that their natural point of aim matches the inline stance (which in my opinion makes it an unnatural point of aim...) I've taught & coached many hundreds of students over almost 40 years, and I'd estimate about only 1% have an initial natural point of aim that matches the current fad of an in-line stance.

[deadeyedick]

[Akitaki]

I started out with an in line stance because from what I've read it was what everybody was doing and things were moving in that direction but after a while I realized my arm is steadier in a more frontal stance, so I changed it. After a week shooting with this stance I changed back to in line because it seemed to me that my trigger release was better with this stance as my arm and shoulders are on the same line, giving me the impression of a straighter trigger pull (even if you just move the finger). So since it seemed to be kind of a trade off I asked some pros and cons. Thanks everybody for the input

[Azmodan]

from https://www.issf-sports.org/theissf/aca ... istol.ashx

The shooter is standing two meters from the shooting stand, looking straight into the target. After few seconds, walking forward, coming to the shooting line, the shooter will turn to the left as long as he can comfortably see the target (i.e., without feeling tension in the neck muscles).

After this, place both hands (holding each other) on the front part of the stomach, and close the eyes. Try to feel pleasant and comfortable with the body balance. When this is satisfactory done, lift the right arm in to the direction of the target, and hang your left hand on the pans belt (or hold in the pocket).

Few seconds later, turn head in to the direction of the target, open eyes and see where is pointing hand spot between the thumb and trigger finger; it should point into the “bull eye”.

If this is not the case, the procedure should be repeated until mentioned hand spot is placed approximately on the visual area of the “bull eye”, within that comfortable feeling and body balance remain.

For the smaller deviations there are other methods to correct position. In the case of small side-wide deviation (size of the target), left foot is going to be discretely moved in opposed direction i.e., if mentioned hand spot is pointing to the right – left foot should be moved to the left – forward, and in situation when hand spot is pointing to the left, correction will be done in opposed direction.

When this part is done, without moving from the position, the shooter is taking the pistol into the hand and lifting it some 20 times, in order to get the right feeling.

[seamaster]

How about Ragnar Skanaker?

His stance is not frontal or in-line, it is more like "overline".

He uses his back muscle to lift and hold, not the pitty deltoid/shoulder. He just turn his hip a little more to compensate for his "overline" foot stance.

He is pretty stable and strong. Even at 87?

[Gwhite]

from https://www.issf-sports.org/theissf/aca ... istol.ashx

This is pretty much the standard "find your natural point of aim" process. With the exception of VERY few individuals, it will NOT result in an "in line" stance.

[Rover]

As Gwhite said: "I'd estimate about only 1% have an initial natural point of aim that matches the current fad of an in-line stance."

It has been my observation, after years in the game, that stance is a trendy thing. Also, I don't believe there is a "natural point of aim" in pistol shooting.

Therefore, I think we're on the same page. How THAT helps you, I have no clue.

[Gwhite]

I think natural point of aim (NPOA) for pistol is an individual thing. For me, it is a definite and distinct position, but for some people, it's hard to find.

Brian Zins says it doesn't matter where your NPOA is. He claims that as you adjust the angle of your body, there is a position that will minimize your wobble. If you are too "in-line", your wobble tends to be side to side. If your body is parallel to the target, your wobble will be more vertical. Somewhere in between, there should be a position that balances those two errors. In the clinic I took from him, he used a laser pointer to try to help people visualize what was going on. He said that this optimum position doesn't necessarily coincide with your NPOA. I wouldn't be surprised if they are the same for some lucky shooters.

If you have a well defined NPOA, the one advantage I can see is for sustained fire. You body & arm will tend to spring back to your NPOA, helping to realign the pistol on the target quickly. For precision events, I don't think it matters much. I've intentionally shot air pistol in positions wildly different from my NPOA. It feels weird, but it didn't immediately destroy my scores.

[deadeyedick]

My natural point of aim varies from one day to the next as well as being affected by my varying physical state.

I have found that the best way to stand correctly on any given day before shooting is to :

1. Stand at approximately 45 degrees to the target.
2. Close my eyes and raise the pistol in the most comfortable and natural manner.
3. Open my eyes and observe where the arm/pistol is pointing....left or right.
4. Then adjust the position of the feet ( not the shoulder ) to align the shooting
arm/pistol with the target. Use chalk to mark around the front of your feet for the rest of
the match.
5. You have now found a position that is natural and comfortable to aim and
fire from.
6. Then release the grip slightly and rotate the pistol in the hand to align the sights with the
the target and re grip.

This is an accurate and reliable way of conforming to your bodies needs which may vary from one day to the next.

[Azmodan]

imho, in addition to the NPA, it is also very important for the front sight to get right naturally right in the middle of the rear sight notch when the pistol is in the target area. if you have to twist the wrist up-down or left-right .. the wrist is no longer "locked" and it increases the change of a "wrist flip" at the moment of fire, causing a 6.

(i still struggle with this - being cross dominant eyed)

[thirdwheel]

Some really good info here so far.
Agree finding your point of aim is difficult and seems to move day to day and during a shoot.
In line is used as it puts your eye behind (almost) the rear sight with a straight out arm and a straight (neutral ) wrist, the more you rotate to face the target the more you have to create a Z shape with body arm and wrist to get the front sight into the rear sight and then try and lock up the arm and wrist. This is more extreme for our friends that shoot cross dominant and even with a 7 degree rotation built into the grip they still have a lot of work to do as they really cannot use the in line stance.
As you shoot more you can get a feel for what is best for you on the day, and be able to see the different movement either improving or more difficult to control. Watching someone shoot you can pick up a general feel of what is better and through discussion with the shooter come to a a decision what is best / most comfortable / natural feeling. This is where the scatt can help but you must also add your experience too, you can see the speed before the shot (S1) and speed in the last 0.2 of a second (S2) for individual shots as well as the displacement on the X and Y axis for individual shots both graphically (the trace) and numerically (by a graph) and an average speed and movement of say 60 shots. You can then model this sessions averages against a previous session and draw possible conclusions but one sample shoot really is not enough as you need to in-bed the change over several shoots to come to real conclusions and sometimes they are very unreliable as you have not seen and taken into account other variables. For instance how your trigger pull is affected by the change of position ( as mentioned in a previous post), we are bio mechanisms after all.
Shooting is so rewarding if you are trying to improve and some things matter and some things will not matter for you but you have got to find what suits you the best.

[B Lafferty]

I started out with an in line stance because from what I've read it was what everybody was doing and things were moving in that direction but after a while I realized my arm is steadier in a more frontal stance, so I changed it. After a week shooting with this stance I changed back to in line because it seemed to me that my trigger release was better with this stance as my arm and shoulders are on the same line, giving me the impression of a straighter trigger pull (even if you just move the finger). So since it seemed to be kind of a trade off I asked some pros and cons. Thanks everybody for the input

With age the body changes (some might say deteriorates). I've been 59 for the past eleven years. In the past seven years and old injury to my left (shooting shoulder) has given me problems. Opening my stance has steadied my arm and reduced stress on the shoulder. My neck is also thanking me.

What I do is line up with the target in a 180 stance. I then move my right size 12 forward about 6 inches and pivot my left foot in in place. Dr. Seuss would say that this is best for Befts who always face left.

[porkchop]

+1 here on Thirdwheel
I, like all the responses given. I started using in-line for about a year now and it's been helping me a lot even in bullseye. The one thing I have yet to do is use a SCATT. I have a MantisX that I just don't get, I'll definitely have to have someone actually show me what the different colours mean and the graphs do. SCATT and MantisX graphics look similar to me, but are probably a world apart. If there's somebody out there that would like to help an older electronics ignorant guy, pm me some time.
Stan