TSA and Firearms at Colorado Springs Airport

[Reya]

I'm looking for some feedback from anyone who has flown out of Colorado Springs airport recently with a firearm, especially a non-competition firearm such as for hunting or personal protection.

I recently flew out of Colorado Springs airport with an air pistol after competing in the Winter Airgun match, but had no air cylinder. In the past, I never had to open my gun case as long as the swab test for explosives residue came up clear. It stayed locked after checking in with the airlines, signing the paper certifying it was unloaded and placing it inside. However, this time at TSA, they asked me to open my suitcase, which had my locked pistol case and clothing inside, unpacked and swabbed nearly everything, opened and rummaged through my toiletries case, and asked me to open the pistol case to "look inside." No idea what the agent was looking for, or if he had any idea what he was looking at. But it was decidedly a different experience from a few years ago when I flew out of there regularly. I heard at least one other person had a similar experience with an air rifle, and the agent was reportedly quite rude.

In addition to being a shooter, I'm the Team Operations Coordinator at USA Shooting, so I handle travel for the US Shooting team. I also send emails to TSA to clear people traveling with air cylinders out of Colorado Springs. So I'm wondering if this is a new trend at this particular airport, perhaps targeted to competition firearms, something I need to be aware of, and perhaps address?

Thanks in advance!
Reya

[jhmartin]

In the past folks have had sitdowns with the head honchos at the CSPR airport.
They have and apparently still harass and try to deny 2nd Amendment rights.

That you, of all people flying out of CSPR wonder about this is only more evidence.

I've avoided the CSPR airport and flights to/from there.
I'm lucky .... I can easily drive to CSPR, and if I come into Denver and rent a car, while a bit pricy, keeps my blood pressure lower than flying into SCSPR.

Joel

and P.S. = I have mentioned several times to the USAS Board Members that USAS should look to move out of Colorado to a more 2nd amendment friendly state.

[Reya]

I totally understand avoiding the airport altogether, and driving is the ideal solution if you can swing it. But what I'm curious about right now is if:

1. There is a difference in experience at Colorado Springs TSA between those with competition firearms vs. non-competition firearms
2. If the more thorough inspection is the new normal at this airport

I want to stay informed so I can advise travelers and maybe even improve the situation for them!

[atomicgale]

I traveled with a J-FRAME conspicuously in Pelican case plus one box of Critical Defense Lite (the cute pink box of ammo), hoping TSA would focus on "Firearm" and ignore "Air Cylinder." Also in the Pelican case were two air pistols.

TSA Colorado Springs 5am day after match:
Got swabbed by Nurse Ratchet, dabbed, poked, injected with thorazine & sodium pentothal, then electro-shocked. Missed my plane too. Ratchet ignored the J-Frame & inspected everything EXCEPT the air cylinders.

Contrasted with TSA leaving Tennessee:
Agent: "You gotta gun?"
Me: "YUP!"
Agent: "You get free upgrade to First Class."

Literally under 12 minutes door to gate.

At least we got Fort Benning to look forward too . . . .

[Reya]

Interesting, and disturbing. Did you tell Ratchet you had air pistols or air cylinders, or did she ask specifically about them?

Was this for Winter Airgun this year, and did you reply to me to get on the TSA list for cylinders?

Your experience in Tennessee is similar to mine in Little Rock. So pleasant. I have yet to get an upgrade to First Class, though!

[atomicgale]

Reya,

Yes, I responded & was placed on "The List" (I replied with a .PDF file, instead of excel sheet to copy.)

No, Nurse Ratchet did not ask about air cylinders.

No, Ratchet did not have or even know about "The List."

*****
It started to go way wrong, when an unnamed competitor (from NY) decided to blurt out to TSA: "I'm with U.S.A. SHOOTING and I'm on 'THE LIST.'"

Good work, Loud-Mouth! What the hell did you expect from a TSA agent when you honk out a statement like that? "The List?" What "List?" "No-fly List?"

So much for my stealth, Appalachian-mind-control approach with my J-Frame and a pink box of bullets . . . .

[Old10MShooter]

Hello Reya,

I had a terrible experience not with TSA but with American Airlines agent with regard to my Air pistol air cylinders when trying to return back home after the 2019 WAG competition. When I was checking in my suitcase which also had my air pistol, I told the American Airlines counter agent that I had an air pistol with empty air cylinders. The agent was shocked to hear me say it and wanted me to open my pistol case to take a look into my air cylinders. When I showed the air cylinders to the agent I was told that I cannot carry my air cylinders as they would blow up due to difference in pressure when the airplane ascends to cruising altitude and this would lead to airplane to blow up. I patiently explained to the agent that for the difference in atmospheric pressure to happen which could lead the cylinders to explode, the air cylinders first need to contain air and I showed her my air cylinders do not have air which was clearly being indicated by the manometer. The agent did not buy into my explanation and told me that she does not trust the manometer gauge and wanted to physically see inside the air cylinder. I told the agent that it was not possible and it would ruin the cylinders if she were to open the valve and she had to trust the manometer. The agent was still not convinced and argued that it was against the airline regulations for her to allow me to carry on with the air cylinders.

At this point, I got irritated with her and told her that she not trusting the manometer gauge is like filling her car with gas and when her fuel gauge shows full, she would not trust the gauge and would go take a look into her gas tank with a flash light to confirm or a pilot flying a plane not trusting the gauges of the plane. Go figure! I told her that American Airlines allowed me to fly into Colorado Springs with empty air cylinders and two of my friends flew out of Colorado Springs earlier that morning by American Airline with the empty air cylinders. Again, this agent was not happy with my responses and told me that she does not care what other American Airlines agents do and two wrong things does not make it right. When I explained to her that TSA has a list of passengers who have been pre-approved to fly with empty air cylinders and that I was on the list, the agent told me that it was not TSA's concern but it was American Airlines policy not to allow empty air cylinders on the plane. At this point, other American Airlines agents came to my rescue in trying to convince her that it FAA regulations and not the airline policy and showed her a printed report. Finally, the American Airlines Compliance Manager came out to see what the commotions was and when he looked into the air cylinder, he told it was fine and it was up to the TSA to allow me to carry the empty air cylinders or not. Still, the agent was not convinced (she acted like a judge trying to deliberate in passing me a death sentence or life in prison) and went to the back room and started arguing with her manager with what he said. The other American Airlines agent had it with this drama and while my original agent (with brain a size of a peanut) was busy with her arguments, printed out me a boarding pass, asked me to sign a TSA form, asked me to place the form on top of my air pistol case, lock the suitcase and placed a tag "Return to BSO - Baggage Service Office" and asked me to wait for 5 mins before I went through security just in case if TSA had any questions.

When I collected my suitcase in my destination airport, the TSA had not even bothered to open the lock or look inside. They may or may not have swabbed it for any other dangerous material content. However, when I flew through United airlines previously, United had asked me to go through TSA counter who physically opened my suitcase which had the air pistol in it and swabbed it like the previous posts.

Long story short, I don't think TSA is the issue at Colorado Springs airport but the ignorant airline agents who like to play God. In future, I would not fly into Colorado Springs airport and if I do, I would not fly out with air cylinders with me. Most definitely, I would not fly American Airlines again. It is not worth the hassle convincing the agents (or the TSA) that I am not planning to blow up a plane with my empty air cylinders. Best is to ship the air cylinders to you before the competition and ship them back to self after the competition. With USA Shooting being in OTC, you would think that Colorado Springs Airport and it's personnel would have wised up to the fact that there will be lot of participants with firearms and airguns attending many competitions that USAS has to offer - NOT!!!

Regards,

Raj

[Old10MShooter]

Oh, one other thing - Security at COS air port is so tight that you need to plan at least 30 mins during non-rush hour and at least an hour during rush hour to pass through security. First, the TSA agent who screens your boarding pass against your ID is so darn slow and there is only one line to process. Preference is provided for those in the TSA Pre-check line and those who are handicapped or with little children. While these folks are being processed as a priority (rightfully so), the rest of us common people patiently wait for our turn to be "processed" in the regular line. Not sure, why TSA cannot have a 2nd agent at the Pre-Check line or on a as-needed basis as the volume of passengers increase. Finally, now you are inside the security, stripping your belt, shoes and pockets. The TSA agent asks if you have food items or toiletries. If you say yes, then all these needs to be placed in a clear ziplock bag and they allow only 1 item per passenger (3-1-1 rule). Heavens help you if you have been pre-selected by the system for a thorough pat down. They literally go through you from head to toe while other passengers patiently wait for their turn to go through the x-ray screening machine (where you place your hands up). I understand this is the established process in all US airports but it is so darn slooooooow and deliberate at COS. I guess each TSA agent is striving for the Best Quality Control Engineer and Employee of the Day award. I understand COS TSA would like to do their part in making us all safe for our travel flight but at least, please speed up the process a bit.

USA Shooting should consider having all of their competitions in "gun-friendly" states like Texas, Georgia, Alabama, Florida, etc.,". Perhaps, have the competitions scheduled at Ft. Benning, Columbus, GA and at ODCMP, Anniston, AL or work with NRA trying to find larger ranges (like the one in Texas) where both small-bore and airguns matches can be held. That said, finding the 25-meter pistol and Rapid Fire ranges could be challenge though. Not to mention the USA Shooting budget.

BTW, USA Shooting personnel and volunteers are absolutely awesome!! Made the 2019 WAG such a memorable experience for shooters like me. Special thanks to Jared, Manager of Competitions in coordinating the matches!! Thanks to Reya in trying to make our experience at the COS airport better by coordinating with the TSA on getting the prior authorization to allow shooters to fly out wit their air cylinders after the competitions. Perhaps, if you could work with the airlines in changing their policy on air cylinders for competition air pistols, that would be great. Then again, the airlines would ask "define competition air pistols" which would lead us to "Oh boy, here we go again....... :) "

[jhmartin]

Then again, the airlines would ask "define competition air pistols" which would lead us to "Oh boy, here we go again....... :) "

and again ...
and again ...
and again ...
and again ...
and again ...

I'm sorry that I'll offend long time Coloradians ... way too may Kalifornia ex-pats living there now.
Of course that may still be better than the Kalifornia "wannabies" here in New Mexico .... sigh...

[Reya]

Atomicgale, interesting that they didn't even ask until the other guy brought it up. Thanks for the feedback.

Raj, thank you--it's my pleasure to help. I'm a shooter too! But I'm very sorry to hear of your negative experience at the airport. Obviously you got a misinformed agent with some kind of attitude. At least others stepped in to help you. It is TSA policy right now that the air cylinders have to be opened and visually inspected, which of course would destroy them, thus the need for my email and the list of approved passengers for the alternative screening procedure. Usually the security line at Colorado Springs is so short, I have rarely spent more than 5 minutes waiting. You must have hit it at a busy time!

I do want to point out that many people have put in a lot of effort over the years to get this resolved with Colorado Springs Airport and TSA. I'm just the most recent person carrying the torch forward. The inherent issue (outside of individual agents with attitudes) lies with TSA policy and I have been trying to get something moving in that regard. We will see.

I agree, it would be fantastic if we had more options regarding where USAS could hold matches. Lots of considerations there--for instance, there are only certain types of electronic targets that are certified for use at Olympic Trials.

[BobGee]

What makes this whole thing ridiculous is that these cylinders have a safety margin of probably at least 50%, i.e. another 100bar over their rated 200bar fill pressure. The reduction in external pressure in an aircraft cannot be ever more than 1bar (1 atmosphere) as that is atmospheric pressure at sea level. That equates to 0.5% of the rated 200bar pressure and so, if the cylinder is full, the differential pressure just rises to 201bar - insignificant!

[jhmartin]

Science (Facts) versus Emotional Reasoning
Which one wins today?

[spektr]

If the issue is air tanks, and we are flying to a match, we should expect to either ship our guns/tanks ahead of time OR even better, have loaner tanks available for us to borrow on site.

At the World Aerobatics contests, there are loaner airplanes.
It can't be that hard.

[atomicgale]

Reya did an OUTSTANDING job at preparing & communicating with all Winter Airgun competitors. She prepared for C-Springs airport's known malfunctions & all efforts were made to prevent problems beforehand. Reya gave every competitor the option of mailing cylinders to/from the training center.

I'll disagree here with Spekr's recommendation for "LOANER" air cylinders. One, it's a ridiculous burden on organizers. Two, "loaner" anything is an antithesis of "Being Prepared."

Again, KUDOS to Reya. And, a huge THANK YOU to all organizers at Winter Airgun. Extra thank you to Mark in equipment control & range safety. The staff was exemplary in all respects & the event was WORLD CLASS.

[jhmartin]

If the issue is air tanks, and we are flying to a match, we should expect to either ship our guns/tanks ahead of time OR even better, have loaner tanks available for us to borrow on site.

At the World Aerobatics contests, there are loaner airplanes.
It can't be that hard.

How about instead you expect that the TSA and gate agents know the actual regulations and not pull ill informed ideas out of their hats???

Or would you rather (as from the last part of your post) "expect" that USA Shooting additionally supplies you with a loaner gun, a loaner custom jacket, a loaner pair of pants, a loaner set of boots, loaner ammo, etc, etc, etc.

Reya, in my opinion, went above and beyond what should be expected of USA Shooting, and is a credit to the staff.
Take ownership of the responsibilities required of yourself to compete in this sport at the national & possibly international level.
For the most part the TSA & gate agents know what they are doing, but as in life, sometimes sh__ happens and while uncomfortable, we just have to deal with those incidents.

If you have issues, get names & write letters. All life's problems cannot be solved for you ... they should be solved by you

[spektr]

Merry Christmas.
I hope everybody had a great day.
As far as suggesting we can plan our way around issues, my apologies for even doing a little out of the box thinking.
When you fly half the way around the world to compete in Aerobatic Aircraft, and equipment issues are easily resolved,
I just don't know what to tell you. I wasnt in any way shape or form bashing the people who worked hard to get what was done
accomplished, I merely suggested alternatives beyond what appeared to be done. And with that, Im off to my turkey

[dc.fireman]

The last time I flew with a firearm, was the last time I will fly with a firearm.

The TSA on my end, at Dulles Int'l in VA. caused pure havoc for me. I actually had less trouble on the return flight from Ontario, Ca. checking in with a smallbore and a match rifle.

[Reya]

What makes this whole thing ridiculous is that these cylinders have a safety margin of probably at least 50%, i.e. another 100bar over their rated 200bar fill pressure. The reduction in external pressure in an aircraft cannot be ever more than 1bar (1 atmosphere) as that is atmospheric pressure at sea level. That equates to 0.5% of the rated 200bar pressure and so, if the cylinder is full, the differential pressure just rises to 201bar - insignificant!

YES. Plus they're usually in your foam-lined, hard-sided case, which would probably contain any kind of failure, as unlikely as it is. Like I said, I've been trying to continue an effort to get something moving with TSA, using this and many other arguments.

I would like to thank you all again for your kudos. Since I am also a shooter, this is more than just a job--it's my sport! This is something I could do to help make all of our travel experiences a little less of a pain.

[Reya]

If the issue is air tanks, and we are flying to a match, we should expect to either ship our guns/tanks ahead of time OR even better, have loaner tanks available for us to borrow on site.

At the World Aerobatics contests, there are loaner airplanes.
It can't be that hard.

Consider that we had 400 or so competitors for rifle WAG, each rifle and pistol manufacturer has a unique design to their cylinder, and each cylinder costs $200...USA Shooting just doesn't have the kind of money to maintain a stockpile of hundreds of air cylinders of every brand, buying new ones every 10 years as they expire. While I appreciate the brainstorming, it's not a feasible solution.

I'm guessing the World Aerobatics contests have loads more money and do not need hundreds of planes at any one moment?

[SRichieR]

We all know about our guns and air cylinders. Many understand the physics regarding pressure, air expansion, and etc. However, I'm going to play "devil's advocate" for a moment. A person intent on committing a crime based on hate (terrorism) sometimes works hard to accomplish their goal. If a Wal-Mart pressure cooker can be used (aka Boston attack) then a metal cylinder with no apparent air pressure could fairly easily be made into an explosive device. And, it's difficult to x-ray and see it's internal contents. A visual inspection is probably the only known way to determine what the metal device is without taking somebody's word for it. And, a criminal will of course lie about it.

There must be a solution to the problem. Law abiding citizens should not be punished for crimes of others. Rights should not be violated. However, as law abiding, 2A believing citizens looking for the solution we must remember where the other side is coming from. To deny it would be to deny reality. To negotiate a solution agreeable by both sides, both sides needs must be reasonably met.

I will stop playing "devil's advocate" now and hope that I don't get burned at the stake for my heresy. I really am a staunch conservative, shooting sports competitor, and 2A kind of a guy.