Smith & Wesson for ISSF Centrefire match

[swilso]

Hi,
I am after a revolver for starting out in Centrefire ISSF match. I am curious for any feedback people may have with experience of the following models and this match in particular. I have found a lot of info online but nothing specific for my answers.

Basically I have narrowed it down to a Model 14, Model 19 or a 686. Tracking a Model 14 or 19 down in good condition locally seems difficult and the prices are comparable to a newer 686.

I have only held a 686 and not handled the others, I shoot a .22 Pardini SP with all barrel weights inserted for my other matches and like the weight (probably around 1.2-1.3kg ?). Do any of the above have any significant benefits over the other for Centrefire match? (trigger, availability of parts, reliability, grouping etc.)
Thanks for the help.

[David M]

Model 14 is a medium frame in .38 special.
686 is a heavier mediun frame in .357 mag. (also takes .38 special)
Easy to reload .38 special is better target load, 100 to 148g wadcutter with 2.0 to 2.8 bullseye.
You do not need the big case capacity of the .357 mag.
ISSF shooting, mod 14 with a partridge foresight, Morini or KN grip and LPA rear sight blade.
Mod 14 is also available in a target single action.
Plenty available s/hand.
http://www.wilsonstargetarms.com.au/centre.html

[swilso]

Thanks. I have been waiting for a reply from Wilson’s. There are two shops not too far from me in QLD that have a Model 19 and a 686 at the other, $590 and $650 respectively (Cleavers and The Barn) Is there a significant advantage to the 14 over the 19? As you said, I’d only be shooting .38 in it. Also a model 14 for $350 but in a 5” barrel.

[Alexander]

I would NOT choose a .38. Been there, done that in competition. Don't do it.

[Rover]

The Model 19 is the same as the Model 14, but with a longer case. I put some nice grips on a M19 and was quite successful with it. It can also be used quite effectively for "social work."

I haven't tried a .32 myself, but I see all the posts here about the problems with accuracy. ??? The .38 (.357) has been used for generations successfully.

[dino911]

I have a S & W J frame model 36 - 5 shot in .38 special. It has been heavily modified and will shoot 10's all day - sadly it is much better at it than I am :O

[Alexander]

I haven't tried a .32 myself, but I see all the posts here about the problems with accuracy. ??? The .38 (.357) has been used for generations successfully.

I would say it is the reverse. The .32 S&W long is the 99.98 % used cartridge in ISSF centrefire competition. It has been used for generations. The time era of the .38 Special WC ended sometime in the late 1960s, fifty years ago.

Alexander

[hurt]

My auto loaders are .32. My revolver is a 14 in.38. All quite accurate enough! My favorite is the Pardini., but if you are set on a revolver, 32’s are hard to find in my locality.

[1066]

I haven't tried a .32 myself, but I see all the posts here about the problems with accuracy. ??? The .38 (.357) has been used for generations successfully.

I would say it is the reverse. The .32 S&W long is the 99.98 % used cartridge in ISSF centrefire competition. It has been used for generations. The time era of the .38 Special WC ended sometime in the late 1960s, fifty years ago.

Alexander

I agree, I believe planning to compete with a .38 revolver is making hardwork for yourself.

If you already have a good Mod 14 and been shooting it for a long time with good results in other disciplines and you feel like giving the ISSF CF match a try then it would certainly get you started. However, you would be competing alongside dedicated modern designed target pistols with their low sight line, adjustable balance, adjustable trigger reach and angle etc.

I started shooting ISSF CF with a Mod 14 (SA only, Target) with custom grips but back in the 1980's, even then I was considered a dinosaur, just the odd few S&W 52's and the odd Manurhin .38 revolver being used, everything else on the line was .32 Semi-Auto (Pardini, Walther, FAS, Hammerli, Unique etc.)

The Mod 14 was a well made accurate revolver but I soon switch to a Pardini .32 S&W Long.

[swilso]

My auto loaders are .32. My revolver is a 14 in.38. All quite accurate enough! My favorite is the Pardini., but if you are set on a revolver, 32’s are hard to find in my locality.

Not set on it, just seemed a cheaper way to get into it. I don’t have reloading gear so I’d start with buying factory rounds, .38 looked more available/cheaper. I enjoy 25 pistol (sports pistol) with my .22 pardini but also like the competitive side of competition which for men is shooting centrefire.
They are all really good points and I appreciate the help. If I go a 32 auto I just wouldn’t be able to commit to spending the same as I did on my .22 pardini so would have to look at older models or perhaps a FAS, hammerli or the likes.

[BobGee]

Here in Australia, I’d be inclined to follow David M's advice wrt ISSF c/f revolvers but feel that the .38 vs .32 arguments will continue to rage for a while yet.

It is true, however, that all the current ISSF semi-auto pistol makers, Pardini, Walther, Benelli, etc, use the .32 SWL cartridge with a wadcutter pill. The Walther GSP-C can usually be found* at a reasonable price and is a very forgiving, accurate pistol which can have a cloth case-catcher attached; this can be used in competition as the pistol will still fit into the measuring box. By contrast, the Pardini's or Walther's plastic catcher makes the pistol too big. I cannot stress enough how great a case catcher is - none of that hunt and peck after each string trying to find your cartridges in the grass or among all the others. Of course, a revolver doesn’t have that problem.

* Quite surprised to not see a single one on Kath Wilson!s website. She usually has two or three of them.

Bob

[David M]

For a new club level shooter the .38 revolver is the easiest to fully get into Centrefire shooting.
The revolver is easy to shoot, reliable and the case catcher works.
The .38 is easy to reload and is forgiving to early reloading mistakes.
You can buy a revolver, 500 cases, a single stage press and dies, powder scales and extras for the same price as a second hand auto.
Factory lead .32 is sometimes difficult to come by, but home reloads solve the ammo problem.
A 6" double action .38 revolver can be used for ISSF, Service pistol and WA1500 events. (with Holster course).
The .32 wc only ISSF and unrestricted service.
Its a good way to start Centrefire and learn how to reload.

Now, here is an argument....
"The 148g .38 wadcutter is more accurate that the 98g .32 wadcutter at both 25m and 50m, is easier to reload and reproduce this accuracy everytime".

[swilso]

For a new club level shooter the .38 revolver is the easiest to fully get into Centrefire shooting.
The revolver is easy to shoot, reliable and the case catcher works.
The .38 is easy to reload and is forgiving to early reloading mistakes.
You can buy a revolver, 500 cases, a single stage press and dies, powder scales and extras for the same price as a second hand auto.
Factory lead .32 is sometimes difficult to come by, but home reloads solve the ammo problem.
A 6" double action .38 revolver can be used for ISSF, Service pistol and WA1500 events. (with Holster course).
The .32 wc only ISSF and unrestricted service.
Its a good way to start Centrefire and learn how to reload.

Now, here is an argument....
"The 148g .38 wadcutter is more accurate that the 98g .32 wadcutter at both 25m and 50m, is easier to reload and reproduce this accuracy everytime".

Thanks David. Some of your points were what I had found to start looking at a S&W. I already go away for open shoots/comps, I guess not being able to spend the $1000+ for a 32 auto, looking at a revolver gets my foot in the door sooner. There’s a shop that sells factory ammo 1.5hrs away otherwise the next closest is 3hrs+ being in rural QLD.
I wasn’t sure if there’s any difference/advantages in triggering between a Model 19 and 686. I wouldn’t expect same level scores out of centrefire but in 25mPistol(sports pistol) I’ve hit 560+

[Alexander]

David's arguments are sweet. But they try to shift the topic, a bit back-handedly. What he writes, is mainly applicable to NRA Bullseye - but *NOT* to ISSF Centrefire. They also elegant cirumlocute all the main issues that constitute the revolver's disadvantages in this latter discipline.

[BobGee]

I wouldn’t expect same level scores out of centrefire but in 25mPistol(sports pistol) I’ve hit 560+

Why not? Bigger holes cut more rings...

Bob

[JamesHH]

Why wouldn't you buy a .32 Pardini if you already have the .22?
Actually here are two reasons, they're a little tricky to reload for and the sear is oddly designed in that it will let the hammer fall with the breach well open. Dirty chamber -> Breech explosion. In theory the hammer shouldn't hit the firing pin but it does seem to happen.

The Model 14 would be the most accurate of the Smith and Wessons, the 19 and 686 have magnum chambers and are just harder to get to group with light loads. They're also heavier, beyond my ability for a 60 shot match.

I've seen people shoot 570s with Model 14s, they don't malfunction and ammunition is easily available.

[BobGee]

One issue to be aware of when buying previously loved C/F pistols, semi-auto or revolver, is barrel ringing. Since most shooters using these guns use reloaded ammunition, there is always the risk of squib or dud loads followed by a properly loaded round which might bulge the barrel when fired. This is reasonably easy to identify by looking down the barrel with a light or reflected light at the other end. A ringed barrel is not necessarily a "bad" barrel but is probably better avoided if there are alternatives. I have a Walther GSP+C in .32SWL which I think has been ringed but still shoots well. I say, "I think" because when I slugged it or clean it, the push through is not even, I.e. the push pressure varies.

Bob

[scerir]

I remenber that in Rome (Italy) until 1980 I've seen good CF shooters able to score well over 580 with S&W mod 14 SA. BTW there are two different questions: 1) revolver vs semiautomatic; 2) 32 wc vs 38 wc. As far as I remember the present record holder is Nestruev, he uses a TOZ 49 in 32 wc, his score was 594/600 if I remember well.

Toz mod 49 32 wc

Manurhin 32 wc

CZ ZKR 32 wc

CZ ZKR 32 wc.jpg (7.77 KiB) Viewed 4030 times

[Alexander]

I wouldn’t expect same level scores out of centrefire

Why not? Bigger holes cut more rings...

They don't. Because under ISSF and national rules, both .32 S&W Long and .38 Special are measured with the same .38 gauge. Nice advantage for the smaller calibre shhoters.

[David Levene]

I wouldn’t expect same level scores out of centrefire

Why not? Bigger holes cut more rings...

They don't. Because under ISSF and national rules, both .32 S&W Long and .38 Special are measured with the same .38 gauge. Nice advantage for the smaller calibre shhoters.

BobGee was comparing .38 to .22, so was absolutely correct.