While you're setting up your gun, you may want to consider this. It beats the hell out of spending hundreds for a new set of grips that may fit as badly as your current ones. Yeah, I know a new set of grips will send your scores soaring. (Mocking sniggers...)
I grabbed this from a 10 year old post here on TT, knowing many won't do a search.
www.sskpraha6.cz/docs/vlastni_rukojet.pdf
Grip fitting
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Re: Grip fitting
Frankly, I don't agree with his approach, nor many of the other grip whittlers/puttiers out there.
The notion that the pistol should touch you hand EVERYwhere is (IMHO) a recipe for trouble. Any pressure applied to the sides of the pistol can cause it to twist. Everyone agree that the pressure should primarily be straight front-to-back, in line with the bore. I believe that the ideal grip ONLY has pressure there.
Some of this has to do with how you hold the pistol. Especially for air & free pistol, you don't need (or want) your finger tips or thumb applying sideways force to the pistol. Any variation in grip pressure from those, especially the slightest tensing from anticipation of the shot, will push the barrel off axis.
Everyone also agrees that the key to shooting well is consistency. You want enough features on the grip (finger grooves, palm shelf, etc.) so that every time you pick up the pistol, the position of your hand is the same. You can't have contact on the sides and guarantee that the pressure there will be consistent. Changes in hydration, temperature, etc. will cause you hand to swell or shrink, varying that pressure. The most consistent pressure you can apply the sides of the pistol is ZERO.
The Holy Grail of a good fitting grip (again, IMHO) is that it shouldn't twist in your hand when you vary your grip pressure. You should be able to apply a significant variation in grip pressure (applied with the middle two fingers, straight back into the heel of the hand), and not have it move off the target. The more contact you have on the sides of the pistol, whether it's with the thumb, the finger tips, or the palm of the hand, the more likely it is that it will twist. Because of the asymmetrical shape of the heel of the thumb, eliminating twist as the pressure there varies is especially tricky. I'm in the process of VERY slowly removing a little material there on my Morini air pistol to reduce the twist I see when I change my grip pressure. At the moment, it wants to swing to a bit the right. Oddly enough, that is exactly where my shots tend to go if I tense up a bit in a match. Ideally, I will learn to keep my grip pressure more consistent, but the less motion I see when I do vary the pressure, the more forgiving the pistol will become.
I've also been trying to figure out how the palm shelf affects this, and It doesn't appear to be too much of an issue. Because of the way the pistol pivots on the top of the second finger, the palm shelf pressure is primarily at the very back. If you feel your hand where the palm shelf hits just in front of the wrist bone, there is very little muscle mass present to cause any variation in pointing.
I'm sure there are plenty of people who will disagree with my approach. Having a pistol that perfectly fits your hand feels very comforting, but that doesn't mean it will necessarily shoot the best. At some point, I'm going to have Andrew Berryhill 3D print me up a skeleton grip that carries this to extremes. The sides will be hollowed out to the point where off-axis contact is non-existent. I suspect is will look remarkably like a Colt 1911 without the side panels...
The notion that the pistol should touch you hand EVERYwhere is (IMHO) a recipe for trouble. Any pressure applied to the sides of the pistol can cause it to twist. Everyone agree that the pressure should primarily be straight front-to-back, in line with the bore. I believe that the ideal grip ONLY has pressure there.
Some of this has to do with how you hold the pistol. Especially for air & free pistol, you don't need (or want) your finger tips or thumb applying sideways force to the pistol. Any variation in grip pressure from those, especially the slightest tensing from anticipation of the shot, will push the barrel off axis.
Everyone also agrees that the key to shooting well is consistency. You want enough features on the grip (finger grooves, palm shelf, etc.) so that every time you pick up the pistol, the position of your hand is the same. You can't have contact on the sides and guarantee that the pressure there will be consistent. Changes in hydration, temperature, etc. will cause you hand to swell or shrink, varying that pressure. The most consistent pressure you can apply the sides of the pistol is ZERO.
The Holy Grail of a good fitting grip (again, IMHO) is that it shouldn't twist in your hand when you vary your grip pressure. You should be able to apply a significant variation in grip pressure (applied with the middle two fingers, straight back into the heel of the hand), and not have it move off the target. The more contact you have on the sides of the pistol, whether it's with the thumb, the finger tips, or the palm of the hand, the more likely it is that it will twist. Because of the asymmetrical shape of the heel of the thumb, eliminating twist as the pressure there varies is especially tricky. I'm in the process of VERY slowly removing a little material there on my Morini air pistol to reduce the twist I see when I change my grip pressure. At the moment, it wants to swing to a bit the right. Oddly enough, that is exactly where my shots tend to go if I tense up a bit in a match. Ideally, I will learn to keep my grip pressure more consistent, but the less motion I see when I do vary the pressure, the more forgiving the pistol will become.
I've also been trying to figure out how the palm shelf affects this, and It doesn't appear to be too much of an issue. Because of the way the pistol pivots on the top of the second finger, the palm shelf pressure is primarily at the very back. If you feel your hand where the palm shelf hits just in front of the wrist bone, there is very little muscle mass present to cause any variation in pointing.
I'm sure there are plenty of people who will disagree with my approach. Having a pistol that perfectly fits your hand feels very comforting, but that doesn't mean it will necessarily shoot the best. At some point, I'm going to have Andrew Berryhill 3D print me up a skeleton grip that carries this to extremes. The sides will be hollowed out to the point where off-axis contact is non-existent. I suspect is will look remarkably like a Colt 1911 without the side panels...
Re: Grip fitting
I don't disagree with your approach at all. I know you have your shit together.
I just want some of these guys to do SOMETHING instead of thinking they can buy their way of this problem.
I just want some of these guys to do SOMETHING instead of thinking they can buy their way of this problem.
-
thirdwheel
- Posts: 192
- Joined: Sat Feb 08, 2014 2:16 pm
- Location: England
Re: Grip fitting
You have hit the nail on the head, the only one that can get your grip to do what it is supposed to do is yourself, we are all very different and all have unique skeletal and muscular traits as well as different sized in every direction. Added into this the design constraints of the pistol frame being a set size and the electronics having to fit into the grip, the constraints become more of a problem though the smaller the grip becomes. I do like the blue sky thinking though (hypothesis) of a hollow grip and you just have to try it, in design you have to bang all of the corners of what is possible to just exclude possibilities but good records are a must.
If you are trying to solve a problem with a grip, say the front sight points left or if all error shots tend to be left even if you have tried all trigger positions and stance zero's, you just need to sit down with your grip and think of all of the possibilities you have to get that problem solved. It is easier with those that have frame to grip adjustment screws but move them too far and the pistol risks not fitting in the equipment control box especially if you are a left hander. All grip adjustment of adding or removing material has an effect on all of the other fitting parts of the grip and you have to work out what they may be when you do grip work and allow for other adjustments too. You also have to overcome not wanting to "spoil" your lovely grip, I'm afraid the "job" is more important than the "tool", and I'm delighted to hear my competitors say they do no not want to spoil their grips by putting filler on it. I must say it is a real conundrum at times and it has taken me a fair while to unlock my own hand to grip problems but analysis and a lot of trial and error paid dividends in the end, to a gun that just points and has all but lost its random shot errors.
I think the web area is ignored far too often and was a major contributor to my problems. You have got to get to know what is going on inside your hand and how the muscles react or the tendons move and relate this to your grip form. Two examples - how does the tendon that works your trigger finger run inside your palm and how does that push on the grip and what can you do to reduce perceived possible problems. Push on your palm with the thumb of the other had and feel your tendon move as you move your trigger finger, do you think this is where some error may be coming from? How does thumb position alter the muscles in the web area of your hand and what problems could it be causing and how could that be elevated or tested. No one else can do this for you as you are quite unique and have the time to try out solutions and sort it properly. But beware don't make this become a total side track and obsession, do get to a decent level of shooting proficiency first and be able to accurately call your own shots, because with out this you are going to be chasing your tail as accurate shot analysis will not be possible. My shooting mentor regularly reminds me that a world class shooter could have a grip that resembles a broom stick and still out class most people, so beware not to blindly go into this area.
If you are trying to solve a problem with a grip, say the front sight points left or if all error shots tend to be left even if you have tried all trigger positions and stance zero's, you just need to sit down with your grip and think of all of the possibilities you have to get that problem solved. It is easier with those that have frame to grip adjustment screws but move them too far and the pistol risks not fitting in the equipment control box especially if you are a left hander. All grip adjustment of adding or removing material has an effect on all of the other fitting parts of the grip and you have to work out what they may be when you do grip work and allow for other adjustments too. You also have to overcome not wanting to "spoil" your lovely grip, I'm afraid the "job" is more important than the "tool", and I'm delighted to hear my competitors say they do no not want to spoil their grips by putting filler on it. I must say it is a real conundrum at times and it has taken me a fair while to unlock my own hand to grip problems but analysis and a lot of trial and error paid dividends in the end, to a gun that just points and has all but lost its random shot errors.
I think the web area is ignored far too often and was a major contributor to my problems. You have got to get to know what is going on inside your hand and how the muscles react or the tendons move and relate this to your grip form. Two examples - how does the tendon that works your trigger finger run inside your palm and how does that push on the grip and what can you do to reduce perceived possible problems. Push on your palm with the thumb of the other had and feel your tendon move as you move your trigger finger, do you think this is where some error may be coming from? How does thumb position alter the muscles in the web area of your hand and what problems could it be causing and how could that be elevated or tested. No one else can do this for you as you are quite unique and have the time to try out solutions and sort it properly. But beware don't make this become a total side track and obsession, do get to a decent level of shooting proficiency first and be able to accurately call your own shots, because with out this you are going to be chasing your tail as accurate shot analysis will not be possible. My shooting mentor regularly reminds me that a world class shooter could have a grip that resembles a broom stick and still out class most people, so beware not to blindly go into this area.
Re: Grip fitting
Greetings,
Rats!!!
Gil Hebard wrote "Buying Your Way To Pistol Mastery" in Feb 1958.
Now, 61 years later, you say it is not true???
I suppose there is no Santa Claus, either...
Cheers,
Dave
Rats!!!
Gil Hebard wrote "Buying Your Way To Pistol Mastery" in Feb 1958.
Now, 61 years later, you say it is not true???
I suppose there is no Santa Claus, either...
Cheers,
Dave
Re: Grip fitting
Don't like the first one? You may have another, Sir.
https://www.starreloaders.com/izh/larry/IzhGrip.htm
Or you may go direct to the words of the Master:
http://www.cincinnatirevolverclub.net/nygord.html
https://www.starreloaders.com/izh/larry/IzhGrip.htm
Or you may go direct to the words of the Master:
http://www.cincinnatirevolverclub.net/nygord.html
Re: Grip fitting
Great links rover. Nice discussion guys. Thanks