Follow the money

[metman]

Things are not always what they seem. The kids protesting are certainly sincere, but sincerity alone is no guarantee that their solution is right or that it will have any effect. I'm seeing more and more evidence that the Florida tragedy is less about failure of gun laws, and more about failure of government to enforce laws in general and treat everyone equally under the law. The accused not only should have been unable to acquire a firearm, he should have been arrested long beforehand for criminal behavior (assault, death threats....). There was (and still is?) a deliberate policy by police not to charge "minority students" when they were caught breaking the law, which enabled this guy and others to carry on. This was supposedly done so that government could claim that crime stats among this sub-group were going down.

[Gregbenner]

Based on the numbers I've seen , it seems like there has only been a small spike in mass shootings in recent years, but mainly because the previous couple decades were so low.
marky-d

I'd be interested in seeing these sources.

Your comment "mainly because the previous couple decades were so low." doesn't seem to make any sense? You seem to be saying the incidence of school shootings look bad because we didn't use to have them? hmmm

[Rover]

Stuart,
But, but, he snapped me out of my cheap shit and I got all teary-eyed for a moment!

[marky-d]

Gregbenner--

I did some poking around and I couldn't find the data I had read before. The more data I looked through, the less I'm sure it was specifically 'mass killings' -- it may have been violent crime rate, murder rate, mass shooting casualties, or any number of other metrics that seem to be able to be cherry-picked to show whatever is intended. Sorry.

I suspect it was data from John Lott, who I'm afraid mostly seems to be a mouthpiece for the NRA and I wouldn't in general take at face value, but also seems to be the only source of data before 2000. The data that was presented appeared to make sense to me.

And no, I'm not saying "we didn't use to have them". I'm saying that when you look pre-2000 (which is the earliest date of data from the famous FBI report on the subject), the rate was fairly low for many years, but rose steadily as you went further back in history. In other words, I want to say it was high in the 70s, and steadily decreased through the 80s, then was fairly stable until recently, where several high-casualty incidents caused spikes in the data (but not necessarily a distinct upward trend overall).

I don't know, but if anything, I find it remarkable that it is so difficult to even FIND meaningful, consistent data on the subject.

[Rover]

In case you still don't "get it."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEJq5JrHAHI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... JNdKI3KB6k

[TomAmlie]

Yeah, sucking on their smokestacks is what's best for you. Pesky F'n government thinking you should have clean air and clean water.

Do you always string together a bunch of random words assuming they make sense? Probably not the best habit to get into. The Koch brothers are probably much less to blame for the problems in this country - including pollution, poverty, monopolies, war, inflation, recession, bad educations, crime, etc., etc., etc. - than the Federal government is.

[Gregbenner]

Gregbenner--

I did some poking around and I couldn't find the data I had read before. The more data I looked through, the less I'm sure it was specifically 'mass killings' -- it may have been violent crime rate, murder rate, mass shooting casualties, or any number of other metrics that seem to be able to be cherry-picked to show whatever is intended. Sorry.

I suspect it was data from John Lott, who I'm afraid mostly seems to be a mouthpiece for the NRA and I wouldn't in general take at face value, but also seems to be the only source of data before 2000. The data that was presented appeared to make sense to me.

And no, I'm not saying "we didn't use to have them". I'm saying that when you look pre-2000 (which is the earliest date of data from the famous FBI report on the subject), the rate was fairly low for many years, but rose steadily as you went further back in history. In other words, I want to say it was high in the 70s, and steadily decreased through the 80s, then was fairly stable until recently, where several high-casualty incidents caused spikes in the data (but not necessarily a distinct upward trend overall).

I don't know, but if anything, I find it remarkable that it is so difficult to even FIND meaningful, consistent data on the subject.

Thx for your reply.

I grew up in the 60s (I'm 70) and don'e remember ever hearing about school shootings. Not saying they didn't happen, that is impossible to prove, but the lack of credible evidence otherwise, coupled with my own personal experience has lead me to believe there has been an incredible increase!

Lots of theories why, and lots of theories for what to do.

Conspiracy theories are fun to read about, the Government DID kill JFK, as we all know. Or maybe it was the aliens?

High school students are likely impressionable, but after seeing the behavior of our elected officials they are certainly no smarter, no more rational, no more level headed and no more honest.

The great thing about our country is that even idiots get to voice their opinions.

[marky-d]

I agree 100% about politicians versus HS students... :)

As for whether the good old days were every really The Good Old Days, that's a question I've been interested in for a long time. I'm not quite that old yet, and so it's impossible for me to have perspective on how things were "back then" -- hell, I'd say that it would be hard for me to compare "today's world" with when I was growing up in the 80s/90s! I certainly don't remember big disasters happening while I was growing up, yet it's not uncommon for me to hear about something that DID happen and I never knew -- I was either too young to hear, too young to care, or the news never made it to me.

It certainly seems like a different world, but how much of that impression is just because I'm 30 years older? How much of it is because I live in southern California instead of a small town in Oregon? How much of it is because I have a constant news feed of every little thing that happens in every corner of the world? How much of it is because I have a son of my own that depends on me?

My wife and I joke (or we pretend it's a joke) that even though both of us used to walk to elementary school without thinking twice, we don't let our son do it -- not because we think he's going to get kidnapped, but because we think one of our 'helpful' neighbors will report us to Child Protective Services!

marky-d

[dronning]

I grew up in the 60s (I'm 70) and don'e remember ever hearing about school shootings. Not saying they didn't happen, that is impossible to prove, but the lack of credible evidence otherwise, coupled with my own personal experience has lead me to believe there has been an incredible increase!

Start back in 1927, not a shooting the Bath MI school was blown up by the School Board Treasurer killing 38 school children, 6 more people were killed (44 total) when he blew himself up. 1966, University of Texas Tower shooter Charles Whitman killed 17 wounded 30. Whitman had killed his mother and wife in their home the night before. It has been suggested that his violent impulses, with which he had been struggling for years, were due to a tumor found in his brain on autopsy.

50 years before the Whitman’s attack, there were 25 mass public shootings, defined as the killing of four or more people in a public place without a connection to drug deals, gang disputes or other underlying criminal motive. It was often reported there was a change in behavior in the person responsible or evidence of longer term depression and/or attempts of suicide before these killings. I'm sure over 50 years there were many more that were only reported locally.

- Dave

[Gregbenner]

I grew up in the 60s (I'm 70) and don'e remember ever hearing about school shootings. Not saying they didn't happen, that is impossible to prove, but the lack of credible evidence otherwise, coupled with my own personal experience has lead me to believe there has been an incredible increase!

Start back in 1927, not a shooting the Bath MI school was blown up by the School Board Treasurer killing 38 school children, 6 more people were killed (44 total) when he blew himself up. 1966, University of Texas Tower shooter Charles Whitman killed 17 wounded 30. Whitman had killed his mother and wife in their home the night before. It has been suggested that his violent impulses, with which he had been struggling for years, were due to a tumor found in his brain on autopsy.

50 years before the Whitman’s attack, there were 25 mass public shootings, defined as the killing of four or more people in a public place without a connection to drug deals, gang disputes or other underlying criminal motive. It was often reported there was a change in behavior in the person responsible or evidence of longer term depression and/or attempts of suicide before these killings. I'm sure over 50 years there were many more that were only reported locally.

- Dave

Thx Dave, that really solidifies my personal belief that School shootings by students has increase exponentially. The '27 issue you mention seems completely different, bomb by an adult. I had forgot about the Tx shooting in '66, too many years ago I guess.

There have been something like 15+ this year, 2018. I guess there is a conspiracy, just difficult to figure.

[dronning]

Thx Dave, that really solidifies my personal belief that School shootings by students has increase exponentially. The '27 issue you mention seems completely different, bomb by an adult. I had forgot about the Tx shooting in '66, too many years ago I guess.

There have been something like 15+ this year, 2018. I guess there is a conspiracy, just difficult to figure.

Looking for some parallels or common denominators read up on Psychotropic Drugs and violent acts. There is a very disturbing relationship in BOTH the increase use of Psychotropic Drugs and increase in non-criminal violence. There was an official report that listed the type of meds that were being taken by people that had committed extremely violent acts, mass shooting, stabbings, attacks with a car or blunt instrument, etc... >90% were under some type of psychotropic medication or sometimes worse had just stopped taking it. Watch the ads on TV and listen to the side effect that they HAVE to list, scary stuff. It's not a normal reaction to stab a girl to death because she won't go to the prom with you. I'm not saying we should ban these meds because they help millions, but there is a cost. Sound familiar?

- Dave
Here's a link but not the one I was referring to which I can't seem to find (maybe there was pressure to remove it??)
https://www.cchrint.org/school-shooters/

[Gregbenner]

It's interesting how the headlines can frame the news content.

This was the headlines on Fox News this morning. Not CNN

"High school students hold rally in support of gun rights, amid 'pressure' from gun control supporters"

Full disclosure, I haven't read it.

[Ricardo]

Nothing new here; just another thread showing how people will believe whatever they believed anyway.
See http://www.tylervigen.com/spurious-correlations

[slofyr]

Rover, no one fondly remembers a drill instructor, never never never!

DI’s can be fondly remembered for helping to keep your dumb ass alive. Semper Fi


What the vast majority of citizens miss in media feeding frenzies is PERSPECTIVE. It doesn’t take much to get sheep stirred up and stampeding. Carlin called it with “Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups”. Because the narrow focus gullible herd runs with blinders, it is easy to manipulate them. What are the actual numbers of the total population involved in the current problem? If you do the math, typically it’s an infinitesimal percentage of the overall mass. It’s always about attempting to build massive mountains out of tiny mole hills. The bleeding heart cradle-to-gravers want to save everyone from themselves. They can try until the sun cools, but it is completely impossible. Shit will forever happen because it’s the nature of all life forms.

[Rover]

Being shot at doesn't make kids gun experts any more than eating Tide pods makes them washing machines.

[divingin]

I grew up in the 60s (I'm 70) and don'e remember ever hearing about school shootings. Not saying they didn't happen, that is impossible to prove,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_s ... ted_States

[Gregbenner]

I grew up in the 60s (I'm 70) and don'e remember ever hearing about school shootings. Not saying they didn't happen, that is impossible to prove,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_s ... ted_States

Thanks, most informative. The list seems to include any shooting that happened at a school. including after hours, teachers shooting teachers, and cases where a gunman fled to a school. Definitely serious, perhaps not what many think of as a "school shooting". Of the others listed, the majority in earlier years seem to be specific targeted shooting, x girlfriend, hated teacher, etc. The incidence of students shooting multiple students often at random, definitely seems to be recent. Huge increase in incidences.