Hey Guys:
Did we ever get "ADs" mystery solved? According to my manual, I can fill my cylinders to 300 bar (4352 psi) which will yield 200 shots. Applying some math, the gas laws, and a boatload of assumptions, that should yield about 100 shots for a 200 bar fill.
I personally get anywhere from 75 to 145 shots per a 200 bar fill. According to my reasoning, AD should not be too concerned about getting 100 shots for a 300 bar fill.
Now I read the follow-ups and I am left with two questions:
1) Did AD ever get his original question answered to his satisfaction; and
2) What's the story with conflicting guidance on the service pressure of the cylinders?
Inquiring Minds Want to Know
(note that in the u.s., about the best you are going to get is 200 bar/3200psi anyhow- including from a hand pump; from which, you will probably get less)
In Reply to: Morini cocking lever lock engaging after 100 shots posted by AD on September 03, 2003 at 23:27:43:
If you are only filling your cylinder 2/3 full (200 bar instead of 300), you will only get somewhat less than about 1/2 the number of shots (gas laws aren't linear). YOur system is actually performing better than spec.
Fill your cylinder and you'll get the desired outcome.
Steve Swartz
: I have just bought a new Morini 162EI. The cocking lever lock is engaging at 120-140 bar perssure, after about 80-100 shots. What is the problem with it and how do I solve it.
: Thanks,
: AD
leslieswartz-at-erinet.com.43688.0
Morini CM162E Shots/Cylinder@Bar
Moderators: rexifelis, pilkguns
-
David M
Re: Morini CM162E Shots/Cylinder@Bar
The simple answer is do not over fill the cylinder, fill to 200 bar only. The German (re-European) system is to mark the tanks with a burst pressure (300 bar), the factory burst I believe to be over 700 bar. But bear in mind the pressure we fill to will cause some fatigue in the metal, so for long tank life 200 bar is it.
The lockout should be set at approx 80 bar (min shot pressure)and you should get 2 full matches plus sighters from the big tank.
If it is cutting in at 120-140 bar the pistol needs resetting in the regulator/lockout. Take it to a gunsmith who knows what he (or she) is doing.
.43690.43688
The lockout should be set at approx 80 bar (min shot pressure)and you should get 2 full matches plus sighters from the big tank.
If it is cutting in at 120-140 bar the pistol needs resetting in the regulator/lockout. Take it to a gunsmith who knows what he (or she) is doing.
.43690.43688
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TRK
Re: Morini CM162E Shots/Cylinder@Bar
With all due respect, this question has been answered. It is NOT advisable to fill beyond 200 bar and it's stated explicitly in the manual (section 7) "The air pressure cannot exceed 200 Bar / 2900 psi". Nowhere in the manual do I find any reference to it beeing ok to fill to 300 bar???
There is a difference between WORKING and MAXIMUM pressure.
My manual estimates 220 shots on a full charge of 200bar, will it do it? I don't know. The question is moot. ALWAYS start a match or training session with a full cylinder. The advice to "AD" was to have him consult a qualified technician if his AP was performing well below expectations.
DO NOT OVERFILL YOUR CYLINDERS. Unless you are filling a Walther LP300, 300bar is DANGEROUS.
: Hey Guys:
: Did we ever get "ADs" mystery solved? According to my manual, I can fill my cylinders to 300 bar (4352 psi) which will yield 200 shots. Applying some math, the gas laws, and a boatload of assumptions, that should yield about 100 shots for a 200 bar fill.
: I personally get anywhere from 75 to 145 shots per a 200 bar fill. According to my reasoning, AD should not be too concerned about getting 100 shots for a 300 bar fill.
: Now I read the follow-ups and I am left with two questions:
: 1) Did AD ever get his original question answered to his satisfaction; and
: 2) What's the story with conflicting guidance on the service pressure of the cylinders?
: Inquiring Minds Want to Know
: (note that in the u.s., about the best you are going to get is 200 bar/3200psi anyhow- including from a hand pump; from which, you will probably get less)
: In Reply to: Morini cocking lever lock engaging after 100 shots posted by AD on September 03, 2003 at 23:27:43:
: If you are only filling your cylinder 2/3 full (200 bar instead of 300), you will only get somewhat less than about 1/2 the number of shots (gas laws aren't linear). YOur system is actually performing better than spec.
: Fill your cylinder and you'll get the desired outcome.
: Steve Swartz
:
: : I have just bought a new Morini 162EI. The cocking lever lock is engaging at 120-140 bar perssure, after about 80-100 shots. What is the problem with it and how do I solve it.
: : Thanks,
: : AD
.43692.43688
There is a difference between WORKING and MAXIMUM pressure.
My manual estimates 220 shots on a full charge of 200bar, will it do it? I don't know. The question is moot. ALWAYS start a match or training session with a full cylinder. The advice to "AD" was to have him consult a qualified technician if his AP was performing well below expectations.
DO NOT OVERFILL YOUR CYLINDERS. Unless you are filling a Walther LP300, 300bar is DANGEROUS.
: Hey Guys:
: Did we ever get "ADs" mystery solved? According to my manual, I can fill my cylinders to 300 bar (4352 psi) which will yield 200 shots. Applying some math, the gas laws, and a boatload of assumptions, that should yield about 100 shots for a 200 bar fill.
: I personally get anywhere from 75 to 145 shots per a 200 bar fill. According to my reasoning, AD should not be too concerned about getting 100 shots for a 300 bar fill.
: Now I read the follow-ups and I am left with two questions:
: 1) Did AD ever get his original question answered to his satisfaction; and
: 2) What's the story with conflicting guidance on the service pressure of the cylinders?
: Inquiring Minds Want to Know
: (note that in the u.s., about the best you are going to get is 200 bar/3200psi anyhow- including from a hand pump; from which, you will probably get less)
: In Reply to: Morini cocking lever lock engaging after 100 shots posted by AD on September 03, 2003 at 23:27:43:
: If you are only filling your cylinder 2/3 full (200 bar instead of 300), you will only get somewhat less than about 1/2 the number of shots (gas laws aren't linear). YOur system is actually performing better than spec.
: Fill your cylinder and you'll get the desired outcome.
: Steve Swartz
:
: : I have just bought a new Morini 162EI. The cocking lever lock is engaging at 120-140 bar perssure, after about 80-100 shots. What is the problem with it and how do I solve it.
: : Thanks,
: : AD
.43692.43688
-
David Levene
Re: Morini CM162E Shots/Cylinder@Bar
To clarify the pressure position, Francesco has posted the following on the earlier thread. If anyone should know, it is him.
"The cylinders are marked 200 bar working pressure but they are international tested at 1.5x the working pressure. This means that to be approved for 200 bar they are tested at 300. For cylinders like Walther that are for 300 bar working pressure they have to be tested at 450 bar (1.5x).Because of difference in temperature you can fill the cylinders in a range between 200 and 230 bar because after when they cool down the pressure will also go down."
dalevene-at-blueyonder.co.uk.43699.43688
"The cylinders are marked 200 bar working pressure but they are international tested at 1.5x the working pressure. This means that to be approved for 200 bar they are tested at 300. For cylinders like Walther that are for 300 bar working pressure they have to be tested at 450 bar (1.5x).Because of difference in temperature you can fill the cylinders in a range between 200 and 230 bar because after when they cool down the pressure will also go down."
dalevene-at-blueyonder.co.uk.43699.43688
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Steve Swartz
Volume of a cylinder
As equal pressures are "subtracted" from a cylinder for each shot, it takes a different amount of volume . . . pV is a constant, so as cylinder pressure decreases, you will consume more volume to deliver each successive shot.
As toatl cylinder pressure increases (for the same volume), you get more shots than a straight line function would suggest (twice as much pressure for same volume is not twice as many shots).
Correct?
My physics is quite rusty . . .
Steve
leslieswartz-at-erinet.com.43725.43706
As toatl cylinder pressure increases (for the same volume), you get more shots than a straight line function would suggest (twice as much pressure for same volume is not twice as many shots).
Correct?
My physics is quite rusty . . .
Steve
leslieswartz-at-erinet.com.43725.43706
-
Steve Swartz
Re: Morini CM162E Shots/Cylinder@Bar
Yes, I know that- but my cylinders are NOT marked "200 bar" and my owner's manual says otherwise too.
I read the earlier posts; I maintain there is still uncertainty here.
I'm not just being argumentative here . . . ?
Steve Swartz
: To clarify the pressure position, Francesco has posted the following on the earlier thread. If anyone should know, it is him.
: "The cylinders are marked 200 bar working pressure but they are international tested at 1.5x the working pressure. This means that to be approved for 200 bar they are tested at 300. For cylinders like Walther that are for 300 bar working pressure they have to be tested at 450 bar (1.5x).Because of difference in temperature you can fill the cylinders in a range between 200 and 230 bar because after when they cool down the pressure will also go down."
leslieswartz-at-erinet.com.43726.43699
I read the earlier posts; I maintain there is still uncertainty here.
I'm not just being argumentative here . . . ?
Steve Swartz
: To clarify the pressure position, Francesco has posted the following on the earlier thread. If anyone should know, it is him.
: "The cylinders are marked 200 bar working pressure but they are international tested at 1.5x the working pressure. This means that to be approved for 200 bar they are tested at 300. For cylinders like Walther that are for 300 bar working pressure they have to be tested at 450 bar (1.5x).Because of difference in temperature you can fill the cylinders in a range between 200 and 230 bar because after when they cool down the pressure will also go down."
leslieswartz-at-erinet.com.43726.43699
-
Steve Swartz
Re: Morini CM162E Shots/Cylinder@Bar
With whatever respect may or may not be due, are you *really* saying that *you* know what my owner's manual says (I have it right in front of me, and it still says what I said it says), and that *I* don't?
Sheesh. Whatever happened to "paying attention?"
Steve Swartz
(ps my suspicion is that I have a different year/model/make/series etc. Not a complex problem really.)
: With all due respect, this question has been answered. It is NOT advisable to fill beyond 200 bar and it's stated explicitly in the manual (section 7) "The air pressure cannot exceed 200 Bar / 2900 psi". Nowhere in the manual do I find any reference to it beeing ok to fill to 300 bar???
: There is a difference between WORKING and MAXIMUM pressure.
: My manual estimates 220 shots on a full charge of 200bar, will it do it? I don't know. The question is moot. ALWAYS start a match or training session with a full cylinder. The advice to "AD" was to have him consult a qualified technician if his AP was performing well below expectations.
: DO NOT OVERFILL YOUR CYLINDERS. Unless you are filling a Walther LP300, 300bar is DANGEROUS.
: : Hey Guys:
: : Did we ever get "ADs" mystery solved? According to my manual, I can fill my cylinders to 300 bar (4352 psi) which will yield 200 shots. Applying some math, the gas laws, and a boatload of assumptions, that should yield about 100 shots for a 200 bar fill.
: : I personally get anywhere from 75 to 145 shots per a 200 bar fill. According to my reasoning, AD should not be too concerned about getting 100 shots for a 300 bar fill.
: : Now I read the follow-ups and I am left with two questions:
: : 1) Did AD ever get his original question answered to his satisfaction; and
: : 2) What's the story with conflicting guidance on the service pressure of the cylinders?
: : Inquiring Minds Want to Know
: : (note that in the u.s., about the best you are going to get is 200 bar/3200psi anyhow- including from a hand pump; from which, you will probably get less)
: : In Reply to: Morini cocking lever lock engaging after 100 shots posted by AD on September 03, 2003 at 23:27:43:
: : If you are only filling your cylinder 2/3 full (200 bar instead of 300), you will only get somewhat less than about 1/2 the number of shots (gas laws aren't linear). YOur system is actually performing better than spec.
: : Fill your cylinder and you'll get the desired outcome.
: : Steve Swartz
: :
: : : I have just bought a new Morini 162EI. The cocking lever lock is engaging at 120-140 bar perssure, after about 80-100 shots. What is the problem with it and how do I solve it.
: : : Thanks,
: : : AD
leslieswartz-at-erinet.com.43727.43692
Sheesh. Whatever happened to "paying attention?"
Steve Swartz
(ps my suspicion is that I have a different year/model/make/series etc. Not a complex problem really.)
: With all due respect, this question has been answered. It is NOT advisable to fill beyond 200 bar and it's stated explicitly in the manual (section 7) "The air pressure cannot exceed 200 Bar / 2900 psi". Nowhere in the manual do I find any reference to it beeing ok to fill to 300 bar???
: There is a difference between WORKING and MAXIMUM pressure.
: My manual estimates 220 shots on a full charge of 200bar, will it do it? I don't know. The question is moot. ALWAYS start a match or training session with a full cylinder. The advice to "AD" was to have him consult a qualified technician if his AP was performing well below expectations.
: DO NOT OVERFILL YOUR CYLINDERS. Unless you are filling a Walther LP300, 300bar is DANGEROUS.
: : Hey Guys:
: : Did we ever get "ADs" mystery solved? According to my manual, I can fill my cylinders to 300 bar (4352 psi) which will yield 200 shots. Applying some math, the gas laws, and a boatload of assumptions, that should yield about 100 shots for a 200 bar fill.
: : I personally get anywhere from 75 to 145 shots per a 200 bar fill. According to my reasoning, AD should not be too concerned about getting 100 shots for a 300 bar fill.
: : Now I read the follow-ups and I am left with two questions:
: : 1) Did AD ever get his original question answered to his satisfaction; and
: : 2) What's the story with conflicting guidance on the service pressure of the cylinders?
: : Inquiring Minds Want to Know
: : (note that in the u.s., about the best you are going to get is 200 bar/3200psi anyhow- including from a hand pump; from which, you will probably get less)
: : In Reply to: Morini cocking lever lock engaging after 100 shots posted by AD on September 03, 2003 at 23:27:43:
: : If you are only filling your cylinder 2/3 full (200 bar instead of 300), you will only get somewhat less than about 1/2 the number of shots (gas laws aren't linear). YOur system is actually performing better than spec.
: : Fill your cylinder and you'll get the desired outcome.
: : Steve Swartz
: :
: : : I have just bought a new Morini 162EI. The cocking lever lock is engaging at 120-140 bar perssure, after about 80-100 shots. What is the problem with it and how do I solve it.
: : : Thanks,
: : : AD
leslieswartz-at-erinet.com.43727.43692
-
Steve T
Physics
My physics are rusty as well, but I am a sucker for an interesting problem.
First a review of PV=nRT
P = Pressure
V = Volume
n = number of molecules (I forget the units)
Assuming an ideal system, then the regulator will fill the chamber to a fixed pressure,
:
: As equal pressures are "subtracted" from a cylinder for each shot, it takes a different amount of volume . . . pV is a constant, so as cylinder pressure decreases, you will consume more volume to deliver each successive shot.
: As toatl cylinder pressure increases (for the same volume), you get more shots than a straight line function would suggest (twice as much pressure for same volume is not twice as many shots).
: Correct?
: My physics is quite rusty . . .
: Steve
.43729.43725
First a review of PV=nRT
P = Pressure
V = Volume
n = number of molecules (I forget the units)
Assuming an ideal system, then the regulator will fill the chamber to a fixed pressure,
:
: As equal pressures are "subtracted" from a cylinder for each shot, it takes a different amount of volume . . . pV is a constant, so as cylinder pressure decreases, you will consume more volume to deliver each successive shot.
: As toatl cylinder pressure increases (for the same volume), you get more shots than a straight line function would suggest (twice as much pressure for same volume is not twice as many shots).
: Correct?
: My physics is quite rusty . . .
: Steve
.43729.43725
-
Steve T
Re: Physics - One More Time
Sorry hit "enter" accidentally
My physics are rusty as well, but I am a sucker for an interesting problem.
First a review of PV=nRT
P = Pressure
V = Volume
n = number of molecules (I forget the units)
R = Universal Gas Constant
T = Temperature
Assuming an ideal system at a constant temperature, the regulator will fill the shot chamber (I am not an airgunsmith) to a constant pressure. Since the volume and pressure in the chamber and the temperature are all constant, the number of molecules must also be constant.
So, each shot removes a constant number of molecules from the cylinder.
The cylinder starts with a fixed number of molecules in the cylinder and a constant number of molecules are removed with each shot, so the "n" term becomes a straight line to zero.
Since the "P" term is the only other variable in the equation, it must also be a straight line to zero, so the change in pressure (Delta-P) will be constant for each shot.
Therefore, if the pressure differential between the shut-off point and the fill point is doubled, the number of shots will double.
Now the fun part - Why is it nonlinear?
I have never verified I can get the number of shots the manual says. Thet might be "optimistic."
The regulator is not really linear. It is pretty good, but not perfect.
The temperature is not constant. The cylinder, regulator and chamber will cool as a result of the gas expansion. If the chamber is cooler, (lower T) it will take more molecules to fill to the same pressure.
The guage on the cylinder is probably neither accurate nor linear.
There might be some leakage, which will be proportional to pressure.
That's all I can think of at this time. Now - What did I do wrong?
Steve T
: :
: : As equal pressures are "subtracted" from a cylinder for each shot, it takes a different amount of volume . . . pV is a constant, so as cylinder pressure decreases, you will consume more volume to deliver each successive shot.
: : As toatl cylinder pressure increases (for the same volume), you get more shots than a straight line function would suggest (twice as much pressure for same volume is not twice as many shots).
: : Correct?
: : My physics is quite rusty . . .
: : Steve
.43731.43729
My physics are rusty as well, but I am a sucker for an interesting problem.
First a review of PV=nRT
P = Pressure
V = Volume
n = number of molecules (I forget the units)
R = Universal Gas Constant
T = Temperature
Assuming an ideal system at a constant temperature, the regulator will fill the shot chamber (I am not an airgunsmith) to a constant pressure. Since the volume and pressure in the chamber and the temperature are all constant, the number of molecules must also be constant.
So, each shot removes a constant number of molecules from the cylinder.
The cylinder starts with a fixed number of molecules in the cylinder and a constant number of molecules are removed with each shot, so the "n" term becomes a straight line to zero.
Since the "P" term is the only other variable in the equation, it must also be a straight line to zero, so the change in pressure (Delta-P) will be constant for each shot.
Therefore, if the pressure differential between the shut-off point and the fill point is doubled, the number of shots will double.
Now the fun part - Why is it nonlinear?
I have never verified I can get the number of shots the manual says. Thet might be "optimistic."
The regulator is not really linear. It is pretty good, but not perfect.
The temperature is not constant. The cylinder, regulator and chamber will cool as a result of the gas expansion. If the chamber is cooler, (lower T) it will take more molecules to fill to the same pressure.
The guage on the cylinder is probably neither accurate nor linear.
There might be some leakage, which will be proportional to pressure.
That's all I can think of at this time. Now - What did I do wrong?
Steve T
: :
: : As equal pressures are "subtracted" from a cylinder for each shot, it takes a different amount of volume . . . pV is a constant, so as cylinder pressure decreases, you will consume more volume to deliver each successive shot.
: : As toatl cylinder pressure increases (for the same volume), you get more shots than a straight line function would suggest (twice as much pressure for same volume is not twice as many shots).
: : Correct?
: : My physics is quite rusty . . .
: : Steve
.43731.43729
-
Vasiliy
Re: Physics - One More Time Again
As you say: Now the fun part, why is it nonlinear? The not very fun answer is it isn't. Or more correctly it's only slightly nonlinear. The drop in temperature in ?K is insignificant. Regulators aren't perfect, but they are fairly linear. The manometers on the cylinder are a red herring. Ignore at your peril that if you graph # of shots vs pressure, the zero crossing (no more shots) occurs at about 80 atm not at 0. The system is linear - or close to it - in the 200-80 atm range. The nonlinearity occurs when you pressurize the cylinder to 300 atm and it goes kaboom.
.43752.43731
.43752.43731
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Francesco
Re: Morini CM162E Shots/Cylinder@Bar
You are all right. The only difference is that CM 162E (with fix bottle) as I think Steve has, was approved for 300 bar working pressure only because it was fix to the pistol and was not removable. Test made by security office in Switzerland (EMPA) gived the results that the cylinder was not bursting, it started to leak from O-Rings at 750 bar. This in any case doesn't allow you to fill over 200-230 bar. By higher pressure you are going to overfatigue the all system for nothing because as much as I saw on shooting ranges nobody goes on competition without refill the bottle. So you don't need so many shoots per bottle.
morini-at-bluewin.ch.43822.43688
morini-at-bluewin.ch.43822.43688