As well as "off gun" competitions we also have some that includes a handicap that is added to the score. The definite trend though is for the better shooters to still win the aggregate section using the handicap system we have used since the world was still black and white. I am trying to come up with a system that better assists the average club member. Been playing with a spreadsheet that calculates average scores and applyies a handicap based on a maximum 600 result and have tried different percentages of handicap like 100%, 90%,80%. The 100% only works evenly if everyone shoots exactly their average, any other version always has the better shooter winning.
Any % improvement for the better shooter gives a much higher number than the same % improvement for the others.
Anyone a wizard mathematician or have a system that works well at your club?
With respect I don't need to hear everyone should try harder or elitist who only want the winners at their club.
ISSF Pistol handicap
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TenMetrePeter
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Re: ISSF Pistol handicap
We use a system designed by our stats officer. It works well for improvers but is not so aggressively favourable as the standard McCrae system over, say, a year of monthly league rounds. It also requires only an approximate starter average as the running average is recalculated after round 1. (The McCrae system needs a very accurate average which is fixed for the duration normally and is vulnerable to "imaginitive" averages being supplied)
The default we use is 92%
For 20 shot rounds, Handicap in month/round 1 is (Max Score of 200 – Shooter's starting Average ex 200) * 0.92
Starting average is only used in Round/Month 1.
Handicap in subsequent months/rounds is recalculated as
(Aggregate Max Score at previous round – Aggregate Gunscore at previous round) * 0.92 / No of previous rounds.
Examples
At Round 5 Handicap = (800 - Round 4 aggregate gunscore) * 0.92 / 4
At Round 8 Handicap = (1400 - Round 7 aggregate gunscore) * 0.92 / 7
Handicapped gunscore = gunscore + handicap.
It is ideally suited to Excel spreadsheet!
For the "club champion" assessment but which still allows for big improvers over the year we drop the 92% to 72%
The default we use is 92%
For 20 shot rounds, Handicap in month/round 1 is (Max Score of 200 – Shooter's starting Average ex 200) * 0.92
Starting average is only used in Round/Month 1.
Handicap in subsequent months/rounds is recalculated as
(Aggregate Max Score at previous round – Aggregate Gunscore at previous round) * 0.92 / No of previous rounds.
Examples
At Round 5 Handicap = (800 - Round 4 aggregate gunscore) * 0.92 / 4
At Round 8 Handicap = (1400 - Round 7 aggregate gunscore) * 0.92 / 7
Handicapped gunscore = gunscore + handicap.
It is ideally suited to Excel spreadsheet!
For the "club champion" assessment but which still allows for big improvers over the year we drop the 92% to 72%
Re: ISSF Pistol handicap
It sounds like socialism to me. Why would you want only "losers" at your club.
Last weekend we had our State Championship matches. World Cup babe Brenda Silva kicked everyone's ass in Air Pistol. No one else was even close!
The only reason I felt bad was that my own score was not up to snuff. It doesn't mean I want to quit the game.
The shooters way down on the list get help and encouragement, not "participation awards."
Last weekend we had our State Championship matches. World Cup babe Brenda Silva kicked everyone's ass in Air Pistol. No one else was even close!
The only reason I felt bad was that my own score was not up to snuff. It doesn't mean I want to quit the game.
The shooters way down on the list get help and encouragement, not "participation awards."
Re: ISSF Pistol handicap
Well, you will always have problems using a "handicap" system for for the static or non improving shooters. The main reason is their performance will generally have a wider range of scores around their average, than other (well, might as well say better) shooters. So, even with a handicap system that is perfectly fair based on the "average", you will still find that shooters that are not improving will not handicap out as "winners" as consistently as shooters with a higher average will.
Sorry, but unless you just go random award or simply give more for the worst score that night, it would be hard to overcome the performance issue even using a handicap system.
CR
Sorry, but unless you just go random award or simply give more for the worst score that night, it would be hard to overcome the performance issue even using a handicap system.
CR
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TenMetrePeter
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Re: ISSF Pistol handicap
I genuinely feel sad at that elitist view of the sportRover wrote:It sounds like socialism to me. Why would you want only "losers" at your club.
Last edited by TenMetrePeter on Mon Nov 20, 2017 3:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: ISSF Pistol handicap
I don't know which post you refer to. I can't see any "elitist view of the sport" in any of the above posts????TenMetrePeter wrote:I genuinely feel sad at that elitist view of the sport
Re: ISSF Pistol handicap
What I've used ('course it's "only" 4-H) is a name your own handicap system, probably not unique, but.....
Shooters "guesstimate" what score they will shoot that night, their handicap is whatever number would give them a perfect score. After they shoot add their handicap to their actual score, if it's over 300 (3P air rifle) or whatever, deduct two points from 300 for every point over. Works well in the informal setting of a club shoot, maybe not in a true competition. Kids eat it up, though. Sometimes they surprise themselves by shooting several points over what they predicted, so either way it's a good thing.
Shooters "guesstimate" what score they will shoot that night, their handicap is whatever number would give them a perfect score. After they shoot add their handicap to their actual score, if it's over 300 (3P air rifle) or whatever, deduct two points from 300 for every point over. Works well in the informal setting of a club shoot, maybe not in a true competition. Kids eat it up, though. Sometimes they surprise themselves by shooting several points over what they predicted, so either way it's a good thing.
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TenMetrePeter
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Re: ISSF Pistol handicap
we have a similar routine called "name your own start". You just predict your score out of 200 and closest wins. Just as likely to be a junior as a senior shooter. There is even an annual trophy commemorating a past club member.bandur60 wrote:What I've used ('course it's "only" 4-H) is a name your own handicap system, probably not unique, but.....
Shooters "guesstimate" what score they will shoot that night, their handicap is whatever number would give them a perfect score. After they shoot add their handicap to their actual score, if it's over 300 (3P air rifle) or whatever, deduct two points from 300 for every point over. Works well in the informal setting of a club shoot, maybe not in a true competition. Kids eat it up, though. Sometimes they surprise themselves by shooting several points over what they predicted, so either way it's a good thing.
Handicaps generally mean all ages and skills can compete with a chance to get their name on a trophy but you need to improve to get the points. They also allow mixed disciplines, eg 10m and 6yd rifle can compete in the same league. Without a handicap the six yarders would win every time. It's important if you only have say 20 club members.
Obviously we need elite gunscore-only competitions. It's how we award the best talent. We shoot county postals for that. But shooting is also a social sport and handicaps do that just like in golf. If that is socialism Rover, then I'm with Trotsky.
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atomicgale
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Re: ISSF Pistol handicap
Hey, do I get an extra "10% handicap" if I come dressed as CHE GUEVARA . . . and shoot barefoot?
Rover said he'll come as Chairman MAO Tse TUNG . . . if he gets a 20% kicker.
Dirty Commies . . . .
Rover said he'll come as Chairman MAO Tse TUNG . . . if he gets a 20% kicker.
Dirty Commies . . . .
Re: ISSF Pistol handicap
The Greater Boston Pistol League was faced with ever diminishing participation about 12 years ago. The League was founded in 1944, and shoots NRA
"bullseye" matches on Tuesday nights from October through April. At one time, they had 6 divisions roughly separated by skill level, and many Clubs had teams in at least a couple Divisions. Under the old system, the team captain picked the top six shooters, and the team score was based on the best four scores. As participation fell off, the number of Divisions dropped to two, and more and more clubs had only one team, covering all skill levels. As a result, only the top 6 shooters scores ever counted. A large number of shooters dropped out because they knew their scores would never count, and many beginners fell by the wayside when they realized it might be years before their scores would matter. The League was in danger of shrinking to the point where it could no longer function.
A handicap system was set up to try to deal with this. The league has stabilized, and participation is up. The maximum score you can achieve with a handicap is 285 out of 300. If you shoot above a 285, that is your score. Your handicap is calculated 4 or 5 times during the season based on your average. The handicap is 75% of the difference between 285 and your average. It rewards shooters who consistently shoot above their average, i.e. they are improving. The team score is based on the top four scores (with handicaps) of everyone who shoots on a given evening. This encourages people to show up and shoot, because the more people you have shooting, the higher the likelihood that four of your team members will shoot significantly better than their average.
There are still plenty of good shooters who prefer the old system, and because of the bias towards large teams, the "best" teams don't always win. My Club's A division team has three of the top 10 shooters in the League, and we came in 3rd last year because we have a lot of people with odd work schedules or who travel a lot. If we only muster 6 shooters against a Club with 8 or 10, the odds are good that we will lose.
It all depends on what you personally want out of shooting. I don't really care much about the team scores, because I have very little control over them. I care about my scores on an individual basis, i.e. am I improving? If so, it will also help the team. I also care a great deal about the overall "health" of the sport, and the handicap system in a great success in that regard. New shooters get a huge kick out of having their scores "count" for the team, and the bias towards improvement gives them a tangible incentive to work on improving their scores.
Rover's comments about the match where everyone got their butts kicked by an elite shooter is exactly the sort of attitude that discourages new shooters. They take a look at their score, and the top scores, and they don't see a path where they can ever close that gap. That is the last you will ever see of them. Many others will decide never to even TRY competition because they don't think they are good enough.
If you want the sport to grow, you need ways to level the playing field a bit, and give the new shooters something attainable to strive for. The elite shooters are already hooked, and understand where their scores and abilities fit into the grand scheme of things. In theory, that is what the classification system helps with, but it's not a cure all. I've seen the difference a workable handicap system can make on a dying sport, and I don't have a problem with it.
"bullseye" matches on Tuesday nights from October through April. At one time, they had 6 divisions roughly separated by skill level, and many Clubs had teams in at least a couple Divisions. Under the old system, the team captain picked the top six shooters, and the team score was based on the best four scores. As participation fell off, the number of Divisions dropped to two, and more and more clubs had only one team, covering all skill levels. As a result, only the top 6 shooters scores ever counted. A large number of shooters dropped out because they knew their scores would never count, and many beginners fell by the wayside when they realized it might be years before their scores would matter. The League was in danger of shrinking to the point where it could no longer function.
A handicap system was set up to try to deal with this. The league has stabilized, and participation is up. The maximum score you can achieve with a handicap is 285 out of 300. If you shoot above a 285, that is your score. Your handicap is calculated 4 or 5 times during the season based on your average. The handicap is 75% of the difference between 285 and your average. It rewards shooters who consistently shoot above their average, i.e. they are improving. The team score is based on the top four scores (with handicaps) of everyone who shoots on a given evening. This encourages people to show up and shoot, because the more people you have shooting, the higher the likelihood that four of your team members will shoot significantly better than their average.
There are still plenty of good shooters who prefer the old system, and because of the bias towards large teams, the "best" teams don't always win. My Club's A division team has three of the top 10 shooters in the League, and we came in 3rd last year because we have a lot of people with odd work schedules or who travel a lot. If we only muster 6 shooters against a Club with 8 or 10, the odds are good that we will lose.
It all depends on what you personally want out of shooting. I don't really care much about the team scores, because I have very little control over them. I care about my scores on an individual basis, i.e. am I improving? If so, it will also help the team. I also care a great deal about the overall "health" of the sport, and the handicap system in a great success in that regard. New shooters get a huge kick out of having their scores "count" for the team, and the bias towards improvement gives them a tangible incentive to work on improving their scores.
Rover's comments about the match where everyone got their butts kicked by an elite shooter is exactly the sort of attitude that discourages new shooters. They take a look at their score, and the top scores, and they don't see a path where they can ever close that gap. That is the last you will ever see of them. Many others will decide never to even TRY competition because they don't think they are good enough.
If you want the sport to grow, you need ways to level the playing field a bit, and give the new shooters something attainable to strive for. The elite shooters are already hooked, and understand where their scores and abilities fit into the grand scheme of things. In theory, that is what the classification system helps with, but it's not a cure all. I've seen the difference a workable handicap system can make on a dying sport, and I don't have a problem with it.
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john bickar
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Re: ISSF Pistol handicap
I shot in the GBPL exactly 12 years ago. The max was 290 at the time and many teams were turning in, and winning with, 1160 scores (4x290).
Boy do you want to talk about some grumbling when the team I was on started posting 1161+.
Edit: I think the team I was on was in one of the lower divisions. I was a "new guy", and didn't know anyone, so "Put the FNG on our Sharpshooter team". That probably explains the grumbling.
Boy do you want to talk about some grumbling when the team I was on started posting 1161+.
Edit: I think the team I was on was in one of the lower divisions. I was a "new guy", and didn't know anyone, so "Put the FNG on our Sharpshooter team". That probably explains the grumbling.
Re: ISSF Pistol handicap
As somebody who shoots well enough to think that maybe on my best day I will shoot an otherworldly score and actually have a shot at winning, bere we go...... Shooting is like golf, there will always be better people than you playing the game unless you are unbelieveably blessed by the shooting gene pool. I am not blessed, and I think it an affront to my sensibilities that we create a condition of victory that unlevels the playing field just because some need to feel better about losing..... People like me shoot for many reasons, and I find a special joy in shooting the ultimate excuse eliminators..... If its not in the center, it was me....... Maybe its just me, but I wouldnt appreciate a gift of points so I feel better about losing. Since I cant win Ill just keep finding the joy of shooting shoulder to shoulder with other like minded people. Some will be better and some not as good as me, but at my age, showing up is a victory in itsself.......
Re: ISSF Pistol handicap
The only handicap shoot that I have seen work well was with a Standard Pistol Match.
Using a self nominated handicap to be added to your final score to get as close to 600
as possible.
Tried it two ways, if over 600 you bust and if over 600 a 2 point penalty for each point over.
Using Standard pistol is is difficult to cheat by counting as the series get faster, 20 sec, then
10 sec.
Good fun for a Xmas shoot.
Using a self nominated handicap to be added to your final score to get as close to 600
as possible.
Tried it two ways, if over 600 you bust and if over 600 a 2 point penalty for each point over.
Using Standard pistol is is difficult to cheat by counting as the series get faster, 20 sec, then
10 sec.
Good fun for a Xmas shoot.
Re: ISSF Pistol handicap
Spektr, you NAILED it! Dead on!
Re: ISSF Pistol handicap
+1spektr wrote:Maybe its just me, but I wouldnt appreciate a gift of points so I feel better about losing. Since I cant win Ill just keep finding the joy of shooting shoulder to shoulder with other like minded people.
In my view, if it is to be a competition, somebody has to win and somebody has to loose.
The one that scores more points wins, the rest losses.
Simple, strait and honest. If the guy that doesn't score more points gets to win, that's just wrong in my book.
If you want to encourage people to shoot, then don't bother with scores... Have them shoot an x number of shots and then go home. No scores... no hurt feelings...
Any artificial way to even things out will only make it worst in the long run. And here's why:
- You are only thinking about the poor soul who can´t hit the board side of a barn, and trying to find a way to not push him/her away by giving a handicap.
What you should be thinking is a way to improve the poor bastard's skills. So that he/her can shoot better and score more points. That's the correct way. That's how you get more competitors.
Get someone to hit the centre of the target consistently and he's hooked for life...
- Think now about the guy who would win because he scored more points, and didn't because of handicaps... how does he feel? Does he get pumped up to compete again? I wouldn't...
And if your handicap system doesn't allow the guy who didn't score more points to win, what's the purpose of the system?
As with most things in life, if there is someone better than you, you either try to learn to beat him, or you resign to be second best...
Just my view on this, don't get offended.
I've lost more matches than I've won, but the ones I did win I'm proud of.
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TenMetrePeter
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Re: ISSF Pistol handicap
Those folk have plenty of scratch comps and leagues to compete in. There's no need to handicap every match. its nice for the 75 year old or 12 year old to get their name on a trophy for a good season even if they shoot 70% of max. Have you ever tried coaching a 75 year old who's been at it since 1960?rmca wrote:
- Think now about the guy who would win because he scored more points, and didn't because of handicaps... how does he feel? Does he get pumped up to compete again? I wouldn't...
Re: ISSF Pistol handicap
I'm certainly not promoting handicaps for even the majority of events. They do have a place in the grand scheme of things to encourage participation in the sport. It only really makes sense in a league situation where there are regular competitions so you can keep up to date averages. Even then, there can be a two tiered system, which is sort of how the Greater Boston League Works. The team scores and win/loss records are done on the basis of the handicap system. "High on Team" awards and the "All Star" (top 10 shooters league-wide) awards are based on individual non-handicap averages.
Re: ISSF Pistol handicap
Maybe it's only in the U.S., but we NRA shooters already have a system in place. Everyone shoots the same match, but the competitors have a "rating" issued by the NRA based on past performance. Thus everyone is competing against their own level with awards and prizes. They can still "win" their class and also have something to "shoot for", too.
Re: ISSF Pistol handicap
It may be that in the age of computers it works better than it used to. When I competed in NRA matches (back when ice covered much of the planet...), the classifications were updated infrequently. There was a lot of "sandbagging", where somebody with a low classification would practice for a while, and then hit several matches in a short time frame to walk away with lots of prizes before the classification system caught up with them.
In a relatively informal league, you get a lot of new shooters who woudln't dream of going to a big registered match. Once they shoot a while, they have the confidence & skills to sign up for one.
I would be a very rich man if I had a dollar for every shooter who has told me they enjoy competing, but they wouldn't dream of going to a regular NRA match. Despite reassurances, they are very intimidated by the thought of shooting next to "serious" competitors. I think holding "introductory" matches to get people started might help. Nobody with an existing classification would be allowed to shoot. The trick is whether you could get enough interest to make it worthwhile.
In a relatively informal league, you get a lot of new shooters who woudln't dream of going to a big registered match. Once they shoot a while, they have the confidence & skills to sign up for one.
I would be a very rich man if I had a dollar for every shooter who has told me they enjoy competing, but they wouldn't dream of going to a regular NRA match. Despite reassurances, they are very intimidated by the thought of shooting next to "serious" competitors. I think holding "introductory" matches to get people started might help. Nobody with an existing classification would be allowed to shoot. The trick is whether you could get enough interest to make it worthwhile.
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TenMetrePeter
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Re: ISSF Pistol handicap
So there are no more handicap formulae in use, other than the standard McCrae and our club's 92% system?