ISSF Rule 7.4.2.4 --- The 140mm rule for metal stocks

[jhmartin]

Sorry to bring this up after a year, but with USA Shooting moving from "USA Shooting rules" to ISSF rules, I've been asked to name some airguns caught in the 140mm rule 7.4.2.4.
The old thread & Pictures
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=53308&p=256303&hilit=2002CA#p256303
We now know that wood stocks are exempted from this rule.

What airgun metal stocks are effected?

The gun I'm familiar with is the 2002CA Aluminum stock which I posted in that earlier thread.

For Clarity:

The lowest point of the butt-stock, between the pistol grip and the butt-plate, may
not be more than 140 mm below the center-line of the bore. This limit does not
apply to wooden stocked rifles.

[Abi]

On a related note, what exactly do you mean by USA Shooting no longer using USAS rules, instead using ISSF? I've been trying to figure this out all year. USAS website still lists 2016 rulebook, and the match program for Fall Selection says "Current USA Shooting Rules will govern this competition". The first rule about Fight Club is you don't talk about Fight Club.

[jhmartin]

The first rule seems to be the way it is, right?

USA Shooting has had over 8 months to add in their own "interpretations" or notes as to whether they will use the ISSF rules. As you know these additions (in red) become the USA Shooting Rules.

You are also correct that the "current" USA Shooting rules are the "2016" rules which are really 2012 and 2014 documents. So in rifle, we're really 3-5 years behind the curve. In fact at Nationals they were running under "2017 USA Shooting Rules" ... there is no such animal. And they were were trying to enforce ISSF interpretations that they only had in their head ... nothing in writing. Technically they could not have disqualified anyone.

So as understaffed as they are, they have punted, kicked the can down the road, etc. and have just said current ISSF rules for competitions.
(And I heard yesterday a major player there is resigning ... all the more understaffed)

Here is a comment I made in another post that would allow them to quickly do this instead of posting (whenever the heck they get to it) another "rule - book":

While I applaud the use of the ISSF rules:
A) The version should be stated as ISSF seems to have "rule change parties" quite often. (current is 2017 V1.1 --- I think)
B) Maybe a USAS versioned "Common Match Director Bulletin" (CMDB) is a quick easy way for USA Shooting to accept/not-enforce certain ISSF rules
C) Where USA Shooting seems to be hard over on non-written rule interpretations of their own, these should be included in the versioned CMDB

The CMDB would be a document that they could refine as the quad rolls along and only be a page or two. (OK ... maybe 3 or 4, but still better than having someone wander thru a doc version of ISSF adding red text)

[TenMetrePeter]

The 2002CA is a mainstream stock. It would be good if ISSF, not you, came up with yes or no for all these classic world class rifles. There cant be more than a few dozen?

Maybe keep shooting it til someone in EC stops you. If they do then go home, get out the metal saw and get fabricating.

The wood stock waiver is only til 2021 and what about resin stocks in the style of wood?

[jhmartin]

Last year I was notified that the 2002CA metal stock would be OK for our Junior Olympics. ... Note that I said last year.
It is now illegal under ISSF rules, so it won't be traveling to any international events.

Where did you get the 2021 date as the end of the exemption of the wooden stocks?

I don't know of any resin stocks that are illegal, but then again that is the point really of this thread.

It would be nice if folks would get out their older rifles (or heck even some of the new ones) and measure from the bore centerline.
When the dimension was 130mm (originally) there were many new rifles, such as the Walther Anatomic that failed. They are like 139.99999 :-)

Again this is an ISSF rule that the dimension was pull out of the rear with no real thought.

[David Levene]

Maybe keep shooting it til someone in EC stops you. If they do then go home, get out the metal saw and get fabricating.

That could get expensive.

[jhmartin]

The 2002 CA metal stock cannot be modified .... again look at the link:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=53308&p=256303&hilit=2002CA#p256303

If it were a machined stock from a billet, then some cutting & rewelding could be done, but it is a sintered alum piece and I don't know of any welds that would hold up there.

[TenMetrePeter]

The 2002 CA metal stock cannot be modified .... again look at the link:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=53308&p=256303&hilit=2002CA#p256303

If it were a machined stock from a billet, then some cutting & rewelding could be done, but it is a sintered alum piece and I don't know of any welds that would hold up there.

Dont need to weld it. 10th grade metalwork with scrap metal- screws and taps. Want it pretty or legal?

[jhmartin]

Snicker ...... that goes beyond all sensitivities!

I'm much more interested where you got the 2021 date.
As a coach in a junior club with lots of wood stocked rifles, THAT puts a seize in my 60 year old heart!

Anderson's quip that he does not see many wood stocked rifles in the finals details worlds of opinion of ISSFs concern for the junior ranks.

[TenMetrePeter]

Snicker ...... that goes beyond all sensitivities!

I'm much more interested where you got the 2021 date.
As a coach in a junior club with lots of wood stocked rifles, THAT puts a seize in my 60 year old heart!

Anderson's quip that he does not see many wood stocked rifles in the finals details worlds of opinion of ISSFs concern for the junior ranks.

Some time during the furore the waiver was said to be for 4 years. 2017+4=2021

Yes if the rule only applied to intrrnational and olympic matches then nobody would worry too much. You would probably have a compliant stock at that level. If not you'd get out the credit card.
Its when USAS and NSRA hold matches at national ranges that had early rounds at club level (for illustration only the UK Ely three round comp) that rules start to apply that would never be applied in the village hall range. People like to shoot "by the rules" in any case.

[jhmartin]

Unfortunately, in the US now we have 2 sets of rules for international that USA Shooting is using:
** "Current" USA Shooting Rules (2012 for rifle)
** ISSF Rules

And they cannot seem to keep them apart

[Abi]

but wait...someone's ears must be burning because the USAS website just updated to say

For the time being USA Shooting rules will be the ISSF Rulebook Version 1.1. These rules can be found at the following location:

ISSF RULEBOOK

Any rules not being enacted or that will be modified for a match will be posted as a match director's bulletin. We are actively working on a USAS Specific set of rules and will posted as soon as available.

[jhmartin]

Snicker.

I'll give Alex or whoever credit though. The have the new PSS document posted.
The MQS info is badly worded, but I got the point.
I'm OK with that.