A question about the flat-tip versus round-tip ammunition? Is there any evidence that the flat-tip outshoots the round tip in quantifiable terms?
The reason for my question. A friend who had a great range of interests had a tool designed and built that:
1. Straightens the 22LR round and aligns the bullet with the case. It may well straighten the rim too but I can't tell.
2. Applies the flat "dimpled" point like the TENEX has to the round. A second tip applies a deep hollow point to a round, if you want it for hunting.
3. Pushes the bullet back a bit (I think) and secures it uniformly in the case. (recall some bullets with actually spin in the case.)
He claimed that it improved Wolf brand ammunition and decreased group size dramatically at 50 and 100yds.
His source was selling the tool so I bought one and tried it with several brands of cheap ammunition to see what I could see. I did a series indoors at 50' and saw little (predictably!) Just as spring was coming and I was going to complete the series outdoors at 50yd and 100yd, I broke my neck in a fall and took me out of circulation for a time. I'm now back in business and will be getting after this idea in detail.
Just thought I would ask if anyone could conclusively say yes or no. If Eley is doing it, one can assume they have the proof from their testing.
Flat tip 22 LR Ammunition versus round tip? Any evidence?
Moderators: pilkguns, m1963, David Levene, Spencer, Richard H
Re: Flat tip 22 LR Ammunition versus round tip? Any evidenc
Snake oil,...
The mechanics of each round are built into the round by choice of primer, propellant, and bullet. Deforming the bullet, or case, after the fact changes what the loader produced the round to do. There can be no quality control as the end user has no idea what the original loader had in mind.
The mechanics of each round are built into the round by choice of primer, propellant, and bullet. Deforming the bullet, or case, after the fact changes what the loader produced the round to do. There can be no quality control as the end user has no idea what the original loader had in mind.
Re: Flat tip 22 LR Ammunition versus round tip? Any evidenc
I may have to agree. After reading Eley's research, I think they have a reason to claim that their EPS type ammo is the poo, but I'll bet they spent many hours and much monies on testing and research during the process. As well as all the feedback they get from the professional world class shooters. Since Eley has been one of the very few .22 makers at the top of the heap for years, for them to make a change in their flagship Tenex ammo, it has to be good.m1963 wrote:Snake oil,...
The mechanics of each round are built into the round by choice of primer, propellant, and bullet. Deforming the bullet, or case, after the fact changes what the loader produced the round to do. There can be no quality control as the end user has no idea what the original loader had in mind.
I just find it a little hard to believe there'd be a noticeable difference altering a "lower class" of ammo. But what do I know. If the makers of the device feels it's giving him an edge, then that's great.
Offhand, just cause I can't recall for sure, is there a rule about using "non-factory" ammo? Which is what you'd be doing with the alteration right?
Re: Flat tip 22 LR Ammunition versus round tip? Any evidenc
Snake oil.
We have been reloading since 1985, and- no- time does not equal expertise. However, is does equal experience. Reloading for accuracy is, truly, a science. Each round, each primer, each charge, each case, each crimp, each bullet,,,with one goal in mind- accuracy.
Anyone who assumes they can change the exterior of a finished round enough to change the ballistics built into it, during it's creation, are fooling themselves.
We have been reloading since 1985, and- no- time does not equal expertise. However, is does equal experience. Reloading for accuracy is, truly, a science. Each round, each primer, each charge, each case, each crimp, each bullet,,,with one goal in mind- accuracy.
Anyone who assumes they can change the exterior of a finished round enough to change the ballistics built into it, during it's creation, are fooling themselves.
Re: Flat tip 22 LR Ammunition versus round tip? Any evidenc
Eley definitely thought that improving case neck tension was important in 2001, when they launched EPS Tenex. However there is more to accurate ammunition. No bullet die can alter the propellant charge, or the primer. If these aren't consistent, and properly balanced, accuracy won't be consistent.
While Eley do well, RWS and Lapua can win with a round nose bullet.
While Eley do well, RWS and Lapua can win with a round nose bullet.
Re: Flat tip 22 LR Ammunition versus round tip? Any evidenc
Thanks for the input. I too think it is probably snake oil but since I have the time, I'll do the tests before I say that. It does seem odd that the flat point is preferred over a round point. To my way of thinking the flat tip may disrupt air flow a bit and make longer range accuracy a problem.
As for modification of ammunition outside rules. I don't shoot competitively and did only briefly a long time ago.
When I had the eyes, I didn't have the money or time. Now that I have the money and the time, I don't have the eyes!!! (I really am blind in one eye.) After 6 cornea transplants I feel very lucky to be able to play in this sandbox at all.
My toys are a very old Win52C heavily modified with original Freeland stuff and a Canjar trigger and a very old Rem 40x based on the 722 action, first year of production completely unmodified and nearly unfired. I have a old Fecker scope and just obtained a 1960's Unertl that had never been used for the 40x.
Cheers!!!
As for modification of ammunition outside rules. I don't shoot competitively and did only briefly a long time ago.
When I had the eyes, I didn't have the money or time. Now that I have the money and the time, I don't have the eyes!!! (I really am blind in one eye.) After 6 cornea transplants I feel very lucky to be able to play in this sandbox at all.
My toys are a very old Win52C heavily modified with original Freeland stuff and a Canjar trigger and a very old Rem 40x based on the 722 action, first year of production completely unmodified and nearly unfired. I have a old Fecker scope and just obtained a 1960's Unertl that had never been used for the 40x.
Cheers!!!
Re: Flat tip 22 LR Ammunition versus round tip? Any evidenc
I recall reading a history of Eley's ammo somewhere not so long ago and when they were originally developing the "Tenex nipple" they found that actually, the profile of the bullet's tail was far more important in stability than the profile of the nose, so I suspect you could do quite a bit to the bullet without too many ill effects (depending on your expectations of accuracy!).
The flat semi-wadcutter Tenex nose cuts a nice hole in paper, but that's it.
When Eley did their seminal review all those years ago, they identified over 1,000 variables in ammunition loading that they accounted for (ranked obviously, not all are equally significant). Obviously things like neck tension are right up there, along with deviation in the primer and powder dispensers. Handloaders are familiar with all this. It even went as far as including things like the humidity, which varies each day according to the weather and affects the primer and powder (the Tenex loading room is clinical and, I believe, climate controlled for this reason).
As others have mentioned, trying to "accurise" a finished round is a fool's game. If you had some exceptionally poor, cheap ammo to start with, I can see that reseating loose bullets consistently might have some benefit, but trying to improve on middling-good ammo simply isn't going to happen, and if you're trying to accurise cheap ammo, you have to question whether you've accurately costed the time you're spending on it vs the cost of buying better ammo off the shelf!
The flat semi-wadcutter Tenex nose cuts a nice hole in paper, but that's it.
When Eley did their seminal review all those years ago, they identified over 1,000 variables in ammunition loading that they accounted for (ranked obviously, not all are equally significant). Obviously things like neck tension are right up there, along with deviation in the primer and powder dispensers. Handloaders are familiar with all this. It even went as far as including things like the humidity, which varies each day according to the weather and affects the primer and powder (the Tenex loading room is clinical and, I believe, climate controlled for this reason).
As others have mentioned, trying to "accurise" a finished round is a fool's game. If you had some exceptionally poor, cheap ammo to start with, I can see that reseating loose bullets consistently might have some benefit, but trying to improve on middling-good ammo simply isn't going to happen, and if you're trying to accurise cheap ammo, you have to question whether you've accurately costed the time you're spending on it vs the cost of buying better ammo off the shelf!