Just a couple of comments / suggestions for those that administer, promote and operate USAS that may help if you are trying to attract more shooters.
Why not take a few thousand dollars and open one of the ranges at Perry for International during the National Pistol Championships and selected Regionals? (Rifle / small bore would be a little harder due to more use of the Perry ranges). If you really want to find some good shooters to try out the sport, then why not go where the most shooter are? Range 1 or the the LR Range could be used during Pistol at Perry, set up some FP and standard relay times and let people sign up. Rent some commercial row space for AP and outclass the NRA air range.
Why not put together a "Match Director's Package" with rule book, targets and score sheets and get mailing list from the Shooting Sports USA mag. All the NRA matches and contacts are listed there. Make it easier to host a match by providing the materials and instructions.
Why not look at the National and Regional results for Conventional Pistol and HP rifle and other events and send out International match information, contacts, example targets for postal score or even vouchers for entry fees to some of the promising shooters for matches. (Don't know all the rules for shooter support here since this isn't my bag).
It would seem that for International to grow, it would be better to promote as an additional opportunity to shoot, rather than an alternative that requires a choice.
.43306.0
Suggestions for USAShooting - Follow Up to Previous Post
Moderators: rexifelis, pilkguns
-
Mako
Are you familiar with the HISTORY between USA Shooting & the
And they do have Air Pistol demo matches at Perry ...
I believe the NRA does have a Free and Air pistol championship ... matches are held at various places around the U.S. ... and then the scores compiled to find overall champions.
makofoto-at-earthlink.net.43310.43306
I believe the NRA does have a Free and Air pistol championship ... matches are held at various places around the U.S. ... and then the scores compiled to find overall champions.
makofoto-at-earthlink.net.43310.43306
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Rick Eickhoff
Re: Suggestions for USAShooting - Follow Up to Previous Post
Cecil,
Back in the 70's, 80's and part of the 90's. The NRA ran the USISC. (United States International Shooting Championship) These matches were conducted at Phoenix, and then switched to Prado Dam, home of 1984 Olympic Shooting Venue.
The NRA did a great job puting on these matches, and the number of shooters was huge. It was common to see over 100 shooters in each of 5 pistol diciplines.
I agree with you, it would be nice to see the NRA run some international matches at Perry. But, I think it would step on some toes of the leaders USA Shooting.
I would like to see the CMP add the international matches to there program at Perry. Ok, you don't have all the fancy high tech target systems at Perry. But, there is nothing wrong with paper targets. A match is a match along as everyone is under the same conditions.
International Shooting at Perry, might inspire a some of the Bullseye Pistol shooters to convert, and try their hand at international.
It is my opinion that USA Shooting should mend ties with the NRA or build a new relationship with the CMP, to generate international matches in conjuction with the National Matches at Camp Perry.
Just something to think about.
: Just a couple of comments / suggestions for those that administer, promote and operate USAS that may help if you are trying to attract more shooters.
: Why not take a few thousand dollars and open one of the ranges at Perry for International during the National Pistol Championships and selected Regionals? (Rifle / small bore would be a little harder due to more use of the Perry ranges). If you really want to find some good shooters to try out the sport, then why not go where the most shooter are? Range 1 or the the LR Range could be used during Pistol at Perry, set up some FP and standard relay times and let people sign up. Rent some commercial row space for AP and outclass the NRA air range.
: Why not put together a "Match Director's Package" with rule book, targets and score sheets and get mailing list from the Shooting Sports USA mag. All the NRA matches and contacts are listed there. Make it easier to host a match by providing the materials and instructions.
: Why not look at the National and Regional results for Conventional Pistol and HP rifle and other events and send out International match information, contacts, example targets for postal score or even vouchers for entry fees to some of the promising shooters for matches. (Don't know all the rules for shooter support here since this isn't my bag).
: It would seem that for International to grow, it would be better to promote as an additional opportunity to shoot, rather than an alternative that requires a choice.
reickhoff-at-stny.rr.com.43311.43306
Back in the 70's, 80's and part of the 90's. The NRA ran the USISC. (United States International Shooting Championship) These matches were conducted at Phoenix, and then switched to Prado Dam, home of 1984 Olympic Shooting Venue.
The NRA did a great job puting on these matches, and the number of shooters was huge. It was common to see over 100 shooters in each of 5 pistol diciplines.
I agree with you, it would be nice to see the NRA run some international matches at Perry. But, I think it would step on some toes of the leaders USA Shooting.
I would like to see the CMP add the international matches to there program at Perry. Ok, you don't have all the fancy high tech target systems at Perry. But, there is nothing wrong with paper targets. A match is a match along as everyone is under the same conditions.
International Shooting at Perry, might inspire a some of the Bullseye Pistol shooters to convert, and try their hand at international.
It is my opinion that USA Shooting should mend ties with the NRA or build a new relationship with the CMP, to generate international matches in conjuction with the National Matches at Camp Perry.
Just something to think about.
: Just a couple of comments / suggestions for those that administer, promote and operate USAS that may help if you are trying to attract more shooters.
: Why not take a few thousand dollars and open one of the ranges at Perry for International during the National Pistol Championships and selected Regionals? (Rifle / small bore would be a little harder due to more use of the Perry ranges). If you really want to find some good shooters to try out the sport, then why not go where the most shooter are? Range 1 or the the LR Range could be used during Pistol at Perry, set up some FP and standard relay times and let people sign up. Rent some commercial row space for AP and outclass the NRA air range.
: Why not put together a "Match Director's Package" with rule book, targets and score sheets and get mailing list from the Shooting Sports USA mag. All the NRA matches and contacts are listed there. Make it easier to host a match by providing the materials and instructions.
: Why not look at the National and Regional results for Conventional Pistol and HP rifle and other events and send out International match information, contacts, example targets for postal score or even vouchers for entry fees to some of the promising shooters for matches. (Don't know all the rules for shooter support here since this isn't my bag).
: It would seem that for International to grow, it would be better to promote as an additional opportunity to shoot, rather than an alternative that requires a choice.
reickhoff-at-stny.rr.com.43311.43306
-
anon, but in the know
Re: Suggestions for USAShooting - Follow Up to Previous Post
The problem is NRA, and not at the lower levels, the people working the programs, Marcus Raab, HQ. Moody JOhn V and others are people with a desire to see the programs grow. the lack of interest in joining forces with the US Shooting Team is at some high levels at NRA with hurt political feelings from years ago
: Cecil,
: Back in the 70's, 80's and part of the 90's. The NRA ran the USISC. (United States International Shooting Championship) These matches were conducted at Phoenix, and then switched to Prado Dam, home of 1984 Olympic Shooting Venue.
: The NRA did a great job puting on these matches, and the number of shooters was huge. It was common to see over 100 shooters in each of 5 pistol diciplines.
: I agree with you, it would be nice to see the NRA run some international matches at Perry. But, I think it would step on some toes of the leaders USA Shooting.
: I would like to see the CMP add the international matches to there program at Perry. Ok, you don't have all the fancy high tech target systems at Perry. But, there is nothing wrong with paper targets. A match is a match along as everyone is under the same conditions.
: International Shooting at Perry, might inspire a some of the Bullseye Pistol shooters to convert, and try their hand at international.
: It is my opinion that USA Shooting should mend ties with the NRA or build a new relationship with the CMP, to generate international matches in conjuction with the National Matches at Camp Perry.
: Just something to think about.
:
: : Just a couple of comments / suggestions for those that administer, promote and operate USAS that may help if you are trying to attract more shooters.
: : Why not take a few thousand dollars and open one of the ranges at Perry for International during the National Pistol Championships and selected Regionals? (Rifle / small bore would be a little harder due to more use of the Perry ranges). If you really want to find some good shooters to try out the sport, then why not go where the most shooter are? Range 1 or the the LR Range could be used during Pistol at Perry, set up some FP and standard relay times and let people sign up. Rent some commercial row space for AP and outclass the NRA air range.
: : Why not put together a "Match Director's Package" with rule book, targets and score sheets and get mailing list from the Shooting Sports USA mag. All the NRA matches and contacts are listed there. Make it easier to host a match by providing the materials and instructions.
: : Why not look at the National and Regional results for Conventional Pistol and HP rifle and other events and send out International match information, contacts, example targets for postal score or even vouchers for entry fees to some of the promising shooters for matches. (Don't know all the rules for shooter support here since this isn't my bag).
: : It would seem that for International to grow, it would be better to promote as an additional opportunity to shoot, rather than an alternative that requires a choice.
.43314.43311
: Cecil,
: Back in the 70's, 80's and part of the 90's. The NRA ran the USISC. (United States International Shooting Championship) These matches were conducted at Phoenix, and then switched to Prado Dam, home of 1984 Olympic Shooting Venue.
: The NRA did a great job puting on these matches, and the number of shooters was huge. It was common to see over 100 shooters in each of 5 pistol diciplines.
: I agree with you, it would be nice to see the NRA run some international matches at Perry. But, I think it would step on some toes of the leaders USA Shooting.
: I would like to see the CMP add the international matches to there program at Perry. Ok, you don't have all the fancy high tech target systems at Perry. But, there is nothing wrong with paper targets. A match is a match along as everyone is under the same conditions.
: International Shooting at Perry, might inspire a some of the Bullseye Pistol shooters to convert, and try their hand at international.
: It is my opinion that USA Shooting should mend ties with the NRA or build a new relationship with the CMP, to generate international matches in conjuction with the National Matches at Camp Perry.
: Just something to think about.
:
: : Just a couple of comments / suggestions for those that administer, promote and operate USAS that may help if you are trying to attract more shooters.
: : Why not take a few thousand dollars and open one of the ranges at Perry for International during the National Pistol Championships and selected Regionals? (Rifle / small bore would be a little harder due to more use of the Perry ranges). If you really want to find some good shooters to try out the sport, then why not go where the most shooter are? Range 1 or the the LR Range could be used during Pistol at Perry, set up some FP and standard relay times and let people sign up. Rent some commercial row space for AP and outclass the NRA air range.
: : Why not put together a "Match Director's Package" with rule book, targets and score sheets and get mailing list from the Shooting Sports USA mag. All the NRA matches and contacts are listed there. Make it easier to host a match by providing the materials and instructions.
: : Why not look at the National and Regional results for Conventional Pistol and HP rifle and other events and send out International match information, contacts, example targets for postal score or even vouchers for entry fees to some of the promising shooters for matches. (Don't know all the rules for shooter support here since this isn't my bag).
: : It would seem that for International to grow, it would be better to promote as an additional opportunity to shoot, rather than an alternative that requires a choice.
.43314.43311
-
Anon
Re: Suggestions for USAShooting - Follow Up to Previous Post
Part of the problem also is competitions. They have a management "scheme" that is outdated and needs replacing- VERY much. They have a few extremely hard-working group of ppl who keep things running, but overall competitions management is out of touch with reality.
Once they're gone, then we will see some change.
: The problem is NRA, and not at the lower levels, the people working the programs, Marcus Raab, HQ. Moody JOhn V and others are people with a desire to see the programs grow. the lack of interest in joining forces with the US Shooting Team is at some high levels at NRA with hurt political feelings from years ago
:
: : Cecil,
: : Back in the 70's, 80's and part of the 90's. The NRA ran the USISC. (United States International Shooting Championship) These matches were conducted at Phoenix, and then switched to Prado Dam, home of 1984 Olympic Shooting Venue.
: : The NRA did a great job puting on these matches, and the number of shooters was huge. It was common to see over 100 shooters in each of 5 pistol diciplines.
: : I agree with you, it would be nice to see the NRA run some international matches at Perry. But, I think it would step on some toes of the leaders USA Shooting.
: : I would like to see the CMP add the international matches to there program at Perry. Ok, you don't have all the fancy high tech target systems at Perry. But, there is nothing wrong with paper targets. A match is a match along as everyone is under the same conditions.
: : International Shooting at Perry, might inspire a some of the Bullseye Pistol shooters to convert, and try their hand at international.
: : It is my opinion that USA Shooting should mend ties with the NRA or build a new relationship with the CMP, to generate international matches in conjuction with the National Matches at Camp Perry.
: : Just something to think about.
:
: :
: : : Just a couple of comments / suggestions for those that administer, promote and operate USAS that may help if you are trying to attract more shooters.
: : : Why not take a few thousand dollars and open one of the ranges at Perry for International during the National Pistol Championships and selected Regionals? (Rifle / small bore would be a little harder due to more use of the Perry ranges). If you really want to find some good shooters to try out the sport, then why not go where the most shooter are? Range 1 or the the LR Range could be used during Pistol at Perry, set up some FP and standard relay times and let people sign up. Rent some commercial row space for AP and outclass the NRA air range.
: : : Why not put together a "Match Director's Package" with rule book, targets and score sheets and get mailing list from the Shooting Sports USA mag. All the NRA matches and contacts are listed there. Make it easier to host a match by providing the materials and instructions.
: : : Why not look at the National and Regional results for Conventional Pistol and HP rifle and other events and send out International match information, contacts, example targets for postal score or even vouchers for entry fees to some of the promising shooters for matches. (Don't know all the rules for shooter support here since this isn't my bag).
: : : It would seem that for International to grow, it would be better to promote as an additional opportunity to shoot, rather than an alternative that requires a choice.
.43317.43314
Once they're gone, then we will see some change.
: The problem is NRA, and not at the lower levels, the people working the programs, Marcus Raab, HQ. Moody JOhn V and others are people with a desire to see the programs grow. the lack of interest in joining forces with the US Shooting Team is at some high levels at NRA with hurt political feelings from years ago
:
: : Cecil,
: : Back in the 70's, 80's and part of the 90's. The NRA ran the USISC. (United States International Shooting Championship) These matches were conducted at Phoenix, and then switched to Prado Dam, home of 1984 Olympic Shooting Venue.
: : The NRA did a great job puting on these matches, and the number of shooters was huge. It was common to see over 100 shooters in each of 5 pistol diciplines.
: : I agree with you, it would be nice to see the NRA run some international matches at Perry. But, I think it would step on some toes of the leaders USA Shooting.
: : I would like to see the CMP add the international matches to there program at Perry. Ok, you don't have all the fancy high tech target systems at Perry. But, there is nothing wrong with paper targets. A match is a match along as everyone is under the same conditions.
: : International Shooting at Perry, might inspire a some of the Bullseye Pistol shooters to convert, and try their hand at international.
: : It is my opinion that USA Shooting should mend ties with the NRA or build a new relationship with the CMP, to generate international matches in conjuction with the National Matches at Camp Perry.
: : Just something to think about.
:
: :
: : : Just a couple of comments / suggestions for those that administer, promote and operate USAS that may help if you are trying to attract more shooters.
: : : Why not take a few thousand dollars and open one of the ranges at Perry for International during the National Pistol Championships and selected Regionals? (Rifle / small bore would be a little harder due to more use of the Perry ranges). If you really want to find some good shooters to try out the sport, then why not go where the most shooter are? Range 1 or the the LR Range could be used during Pistol at Perry, set up some FP and standard relay times and let people sign up. Rent some commercial row space for AP and outclass the NRA air range.
: : : Why not put together a "Match Director's Package" with rule book, targets and score sheets and get mailing list from the Shooting Sports USA mag. All the NRA matches and contacts are listed there. Make it easier to host a match by providing the materials and instructions.
: : : Why not look at the National and Regional results for Conventional Pistol and HP rifle and other events and send out International match information, contacts, example targets for postal score or even vouchers for entry fees to some of the promising shooters for matches. (Don't know all the rules for shooter support here since this isn't my bag).
: : : It would seem that for International to grow, it would be better to promote as an additional opportunity to shoot, rather than an alternative that requires a choice.
.43317.43314
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Cecil
I did not mean NRA, but USAS....
This was suggestions for that organization / members if you want more participations. Screw the politics, if you want shooter go to where they are and have matches.
USAS, approach the shooters and tell them you want a venue at Perry. Put up the money and rent the range, just like NRA has to pay for. I was not suggesting this be a NRA event at all, simply find a way to get there.
.43318.43311
USAS, approach the shooters and tell them you want a venue at Perry. Put up the money and rent the range, just like NRA has to pay for. I was not suggesting this be a NRA event at all, simply find a way to get there.
.43318.43311
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Cecil
YES, and as a shooter it doesn't make a .....
As posted above, screw the politics. If the USAS organization wants more shooters, then, go to where they are and make it easy to put on matches. Send out free materials (targets, score sheets, books, etc).
Yes and I shot the demo matches, 97,97,97,96 (had a good two days and made some points). But an International AP match it ain't.
.43319.43310
Yes and I shot the demo matches, 97,97,97,96 (had a good two days and made some points). But an International AP match it ain't.
.43319.43310
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PETE
United we stand, divided...
I tend to agree with Cecil on most of his points. I think USAS needs to expand their presence and do a better job of marketing to shooters. A better job of promotion overall. The lack of attendance at this year's nationals speaks for itself.
I think an important point is that the precision shooting sports need to work together. I am not sure that Bullseye, while it may be holding it own, is really growing. I remember when I started years ago, I was one of the youngst shooters. I am still well below the average age over twenty years later.
The concern expressed about the NRA versus USAS or USAS versus NRA is real. The two must be separate organizations. Anything other than full cooperation between the two is detrimental to both. Olympic shooting events provides legitimacy for shooting sports around the world.
But the NRA supports many different shooting sports, USAS is strictly ISSF. Hence, we can not expect the NRA to give international any more support than any other competition.
If are any in either or both organizations that are more interested in their own personal agenda rather than the shooting sports, we are all doomed.
.43321.43306
I think an important point is that the precision shooting sports need to work together. I am not sure that Bullseye, while it may be holding it own, is really growing. I remember when I started years ago, I was one of the youngst shooters. I am still well below the average age over twenty years later.
The concern expressed about the NRA versus USAS or USAS versus NRA is real. The two must be separate organizations. Anything other than full cooperation between the two is detrimental to both. Olympic shooting events provides legitimacy for shooting sports around the world.
But the NRA supports many different shooting sports, USAS is strictly ISSF. Hence, we can not expect the NRA to give international any more support than any other competition.
If are any in either or both organizations that are more interested in their own personal agenda rather than the shooting sports, we are all doomed.
.43321.43306
-
Eric U
Re: Suggestions for USAShooting - Follow Up to Previous Post
Ok...I knew I'd get some discussion going with my last post.
Don't get me wrong, I'm a life member of both the NRA and USA Shooting. They are both very valuable to me. One because it can help me get an Olympic medal, the other because I'm very fond of my right to keep and bear arms. On occasion, I do participate in NRA matches. I just started shooting high-power again this year after an 11 year layoff. I do this for two reasons...highpower can be a lot of fun, and I just can't shoot enough good quality international matches in the area of the country I live in. A good match of any type is better than none at all (it is also helping me remember how to read wind). I also know Mr. Abalo, and his son Chris very well. Those aren't the people I was talking about previously. I also was not talking about the IJ with the "record that could have been" from Phoenix. I agree with PETE. Just look at IRL and CART with open wheel racing. Since they split, both are weaker. Divided we fall.
The NRA and USA Shooting cannot be the same organization because of International Olympic Committee rules. There is no reason, however, that they cannot work closer together. I freely admit that USA Shooting is very deficient in many areas. Mostly that is because of budget. The reason USA Shooting exists is to cultivate top level shooters. If they can't do that, they lose USOC funding. They also realise that without some form of grass roots program, eventually the top level shooters won't be good enough anymore. Unfortunately, as cash strapped as USA Shooting is, not nearly enough money can go toward entry level programs. They can barely hold the USA Shooting Nationals on their budget, I don't see how they would be able to rent a range at Perry to and entice some of the NRA shooters to give it a try. Since the grass roots programs have traditionally been NRA, that is the type of shooting many of those shooters will likely stay with for life. This is where I wish USA Shooting and the NRA would stop having their pissing contests. If only they used the same equipment and targets, then it wouldn't be such an ordeal to shoot matches for the different organizations (it is frustrating to me that I can't shoot my 300m standard rifle in NRA highpower, because the depth of my stock forend is 90mm instead of 3.25"). Unfortunately, I don't think that will ever happen because of at least a couple of reasons: 1st, the higher management at the NRA still have their feelings hurt because of the split between the NRA and USA Shooting, and refuse to cooperate on anything. 2nd, there are just too many NRA shooters who wouldn't want to change all their gear over to meet USA Shooting (ISSF really) rules. I don't see why we couldn't have an NRA equipment category at USA Shooting matches. Why not? Maybe they don't shoot the finals...maybe they can't win the overall award...but maybe it could be a good introduction to see what else is out there. 300m shooting is almost dead in the USA. I firmly believe that if only a few good NRA shooters tried it, they would be hooked. Of course, getting your clock cleaned by the Army shooters might not entice you to come back. On the other hand, maybe it would...
Can't we all just get along?
.43325.43306
Don't get me wrong, I'm a life member of both the NRA and USA Shooting. They are both very valuable to me. One because it can help me get an Olympic medal, the other because I'm very fond of my right to keep and bear arms. On occasion, I do participate in NRA matches. I just started shooting high-power again this year after an 11 year layoff. I do this for two reasons...highpower can be a lot of fun, and I just can't shoot enough good quality international matches in the area of the country I live in. A good match of any type is better than none at all (it is also helping me remember how to read wind). I also know Mr. Abalo, and his son Chris very well. Those aren't the people I was talking about previously. I also was not talking about the IJ with the "record that could have been" from Phoenix. I agree with PETE. Just look at IRL and CART with open wheel racing. Since they split, both are weaker. Divided we fall.
The NRA and USA Shooting cannot be the same organization because of International Olympic Committee rules. There is no reason, however, that they cannot work closer together. I freely admit that USA Shooting is very deficient in many areas. Mostly that is because of budget. The reason USA Shooting exists is to cultivate top level shooters. If they can't do that, they lose USOC funding. They also realise that without some form of grass roots program, eventually the top level shooters won't be good enough anymore. Unfortunately, as cash strapped as USA Shooting is, not nearly enough money can go toward entry level programs. They can barely hold the USA Shooting Nationals on their budget, I don't see how they would be able to rent a range at Perry to and entice some of the NRA shooters to give it a try. Since the grass roots programs have traditionally been NRA, that is the type of shooting many of those shooters will likely stay with for life. This is where I wish USA Shooting and the NRA would stop having their pissing contests. If only they used the same equipment and targets, then it wouldn't be such an ordeal to shoot matches for the different organizations (it is frustrating to me that I can't shoot my 300m standard rifle in NRA highpower, because the depth of my stock forend is 90mm instead of 3.25"). Unfortunately, I don't think that will ever happen because of at least a couple of reasons: 1st, the higher management at the NRA still have their feelings hurt because of the split between the NRA and USA Shooting, and refuse to cooperate on anything. 2nd, there are just too many NRA shooters who wouldn't want to change all their gear over to meet USA Shooting (ISSF really) rules. I don't see why we couldn't have an NRA equipment category at USA Shooting matches. Why not? Maybe they don't shoot the finals...maybe they can't win the overall award...but maybe it could be a good introduction to see what else is out there. 300m shooting is almost dead in the USA. I firmly believe that if only a few good NRA shooters tried it, they would be hooked. Of course, getting your clock cleaned by the Army shooters might not entice you to come back. On the other hand, maybe it would...
Can't we all just get along?
.43325.43306
-
EfrenR
USA Shooting, on bridge over troubled water . . .
I cannot help but notice that all these recent TT postings about USA Shooting are signs of possible legal troubles for USA Shooting. That's because as the national governing body for the olympic shooting sports, USA Shooting is under legal duty under federal law (United States Amateur Sports Act of 1978) "to develop interest and participation" for the sport which it governs (not necessarily cultivate top level shooters). With low participation, with potentially good athletes being 'drained' to the NRA side, and with one of our elite athletes confirming that USA Shooting is "very deficient in many areas", among the troubles that confronted this fine organization, one might say that all these allegations are evidence that USAS failed to perform this particular legal duty?
In addition, USAS is also under legal duty to keep amateur athletes (us USAS members) informed of policy matters and "reasonably reflect the views of such athletes in its policy decisions". Has USAS been reading and listening to the views of its members, specially those posted on this forum, and if they did, do their policy decisions reflect these views?
Moreover, when USAS declined to certify Sandra U's 'what would have been record shots' in Sports Pistol last fall because of the minimum requirement rule copied from ISSF's rule for world records, has USAS breached its federally mandated legal duty to "provide . . . encouragement for participation by women ..." by adopting said said ISSF rule which may have an unintended effect of discouraging women participation on the sport USAS governs?
Finally, does USAS have a procedure in place "for the prompt and equitable resolution of grievances of its members" brought about to their attention directly or indirectly through this forum?
The existence of any of the scenarios above is a threat to the existence of USAS as the sole governing body of the olympic sport. As members of USAS, we owe it to USAS an obligation to help this organization correct whatever deficiencies it has, to let our views be known to them and help them reasobaly reflect such views in its policy decisions, let's continue supporting its programs by showing up at PTOs and other USAS sanctioned competitions, recruit new shooters, specially juniors, (the Phoenix Club has this goal in place, and other USAS members like Mako actively invites news shooters to PTOs), let's encourage USAS to tap the 'human resources' of NRA by ancouraging its members to compete with us, so that USA Shooting will continue to grow as the only viable organization to advance and promote our olympic sports. If the existence of USA Shooting as a governing body is lost, chances are we also destroy our olympic shooting sports. Losing USAS and recognizing a new governing body will have adverse consequences on our olympic sports which may take years to recover.
ratherbe-at-adelphia.net.43330.43306
In addition, USAS is also under legal duty to keep amateur athletes (us USAS members) informed of policy matters and "reasonably reflect the views of such athletes in its policy decisions". Has USAS been reading and listening to the views of its members, specially those posted on this forum, and if they did, do their policy decisions reflect these views?
Moreover, when USAS declined to certify Sandra U's 'what would have been record shots' in Sports Pistol last fall because of the minimum requirement rule copied from ISSF's rule for world records, has USAS breached its federally mandated legal duty to "provide . . . encouragement for participation by women ..." by adopting said said ISSF rule which may have an unintended effect of discouraging women participation on the sport USAS governs?
Finally, does USAS have a procedure in place "for the prompt and equitable resolution of grievances of its members" brought about to their attention directly or indirectly through this forum?
The existence of any of the scenarios above is a threat to the existence of USAS as the sole governing body of the olympic sport. As members of USAS, we owe it to USAS an obligation to help this organization correct whatever deficiencies it has, to let our views be known to them and help them reasobaly reflect such views in its policy decisions, let's continue supporting its programs by showing up at PTOs and other USAS sanctioned competitions, recruit new shooters, specially juniors, (the Phoenix Club has this goal in place, and other USAS members like Mako actively invites news shooters to PTOs), let's encourage USAS to tap the 'human resources' of NRA by ancouraging its members to compete with us, so that USA Shooting will continue to grow as the only viable organization to advance and promote our olympic sports. If the existence of USA Shooting as a governing body is lost, chances are we also destroy our olympic shooting sports. Losing USAS and recognizing a new governing body will have adverse consequences on our olympic sports which may take years to recover.
ratherbe-at-adelphia.net.43330.43306
-
fred
Re: Talk to USA Shooting directly
: I cannot help but notice that all these recent TT postings about USA Shooting are signs of possible legal troubles for USA Shooting.
Efren - apparently you are a lawyer. If you want to help USAS, wouldn't it make more sense to communicate DIRECTLY with USAS about possible legal problems, rather than posting these problems on Target Talk. Since you are the only TT contributor who is aware of these potential legal problems, and since you chose to post them here, it almost looks like a veiled threat: "USAS, get your act together or deal with these legalities." I'm sure you didn't intend it that way, but that's kind of how it sounds. Call Bob Mitchell (who I have found easily accessible), and offer your services while explaining the potential problems as you see them. That sure beats raising these issues on TT, and hoping that someone at USAS will notice.
frbauer-at-msn.com.43332.43330
Efren - apparently you are a lawyer. If you want to help USAS, wouldn't it make more sense to communicate DIRECTLY with USAS about possible legal problems, rather than posting these problems on Target Talk. Since you are the only TT contributor who is aware of these potential legal problems, and since you chose to post them here, it almost looks like a veiled threat: "USAS, get your act together or deal with these legalities." I'm sure you didn't intend it that way, but that's kind of how it sounds. Call Bob Mitchell (who I have found easily accessible), and offer your services while explaining the potential problems as you see them. That sure beats raising these issues on TT, and hoping that someone at USAS will notice.
frbauer-at-msn.com.43332.43330
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ab
Re: USA Shooting, on bridge over troubled water . . .
Your response vs. Sandra U. response shows a different level of maturity.
x20-at-hotmail.com.43334.43330
x20-at-hotmail.com.43334.43330
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LesJ
I do not agree with you.
I do not agree with your statement on the subject of USA Shooting. How can you draw this conclusion based on very small number of people complaining. This forum is not exactly a place for any legal matters and is more for anybody to exchange ideas. We all know that everybody is an expert and we can see that based on variety of different ideas that we see here. I don't know if you notice that shooting related business is way down in last year or two due to economy, so we can safely assume that people do not have that extra money for shooting matches.
For every person that complained there are many more who are satisfied and happy with the service that USAS provide even so they do not necessary post this every day on this site. Because USAS does not make changes the way you or others want them to make it doesn't mean that they don't have best interest of amateur shooters in mind.
When I was organizing Juniors Olympic in my state I received superb help from USAS staff, which I can not say same about NRA.
I am not saying that everything is perfect, but I find your conclusion to be out of line.
.43335.43330
For every person that complained there are many more who are satisfied and happy with the service that USAS provide even so they do not necessary post this every day on this site. Because USAS does not make changes the way you or others want them to make it doesn't mean that they don't have best interest of amateur shooters in mind.
When I was organizing Juniors Olympic in my state I received superb help from USAS staff, which I can not say same about NRA.
I am not saying that everything is perfect, but I find your conclusion to be out of line.
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EfrenR
In this forum, we agree to disagree and your opinion is as g
Les, I truly respect your opinion and totally agree with you, sir, that this forum “is more for
anybody to exchange ideas.” However, I honestly don’t agree with you that by advocating an
exchange of ideas on this forum, you also want to put some limit on such exercise of free speech
by saying that we can talk about anything but “legal matters.” If you notice that when an issue is posted on this forum, people react in different ways with varying opinions depending on their
background and experience. A layman may give his layman’s point of view, an engineer may give his opinion from an engineer’s perspective, a doctor will view things with medical spin on an issue, and a lawyer may have a different view of things giving legal meanings to a collective set of circumstances. I am entitled to post my ideas on this forum with as much vigor as you do. If you don’t like my ideas, click on the next TT postings and move on. You may disagree with me, but you cannot prevent me or anybody in this forum to post matters you don’t like to read.
That being said, I must tell you that you have totally misunderstood my posting. Please read my
posting again. The events I narrated are all postings from different people whose opinions when
taken collectively presents a problem with USAS. The quotations are sections of the federal law that governs USAS. Majority of my postings are not my words, and if you read it again, I did not make any conclusions. After I narrated collective TT issues, I then asked a question on each set of facts. A question is not a conclusion, it invites some answers from TT readers by discussing those issues, and after we have discussed those issues, you may draw your own conclusion, sir. After all, this is a forum that we can have an open exchange of ideas, whether you agree with such idea or not. I have never intended that posting as a ‘veiled threat’ against USAS. In fact, if the existence of USAS is threatened by someone following the procedures outlined under the Amateur Sports Act of 1978, I will offer my free services to USAS to defend it against such legal challenge. I can assure you sir that I will not be on the front line with those who may try to destroy the sports for which my son love very much and the organization I wholeheartedly support which is tasked of promoting our sport.
If you read the last paragraph of my posting, I even urged USAS members to help this fine
organization. I support USAS in promoting our sports and I truly believe that it is doing its best to help amateur shooters. In fact, our junior shooters (our kids), benefitted from its programs. I even encouraged members to invite/recruit new shooters because we have such low attendance in our sports (you mentioned before that you only have 1 or 2 shooters during your State Junior Olympics.) Even one of our elite shooters acknowledged that USAS is "very deficient in many areas." For you to say that “Because USAS does not make changes the way you or others want them to make it doesn’t mean they don’t have the best interest of amateur shooters in mind.” That may be your opinion, sir, but it isn’t certainly mine. In my postings, I even expressed my admiration for the USAS staff members and its volunteers.
I hope I have enlightened you and Fred on these issues.
ratherbe-at-adelphia.net.43340.43335
anybody to exchange ideas.” However, I honestly don’t agree with you that by advocating an
exchange of ideas on this forum, you also want to put some limit on such exercise of free speech
by saying that we can talk about anything but “legal matters.” If you notice that when an issue is posted on this forum, people react in different ways with varying opinions depending on their
background and experience. A layman may give his layman’s point of view, an engineer may give his opinion from an engineer’s perspective, a doctor will view things with medical spin on an issue, and a lawyer may have a different view of things giving legal meanings to a collective set of circumstances. I am entitled to post my ideas on this forum with as much vigor as you do. If you don’t like my ideas, click on the next TT postings and move on. You may disagree with me, but you cannot prevent me or anybody in this forum to post matters you don’t like to read.
That being said, I must tell you that you have totally misunderstood my posting. Please read my
posting again. The events I narrated are all postings from different people whose opinions when
taken collectively presents a problem with USAS. The quotations are sections of the federal law that governs USAS. Majority of my postings are not my words, and if you read it again, I did not make any conclusions. After I narrated collective TT issues, I then asked a question on each set of facts. A question is not a conclusion, it invites some answers from TT readers by discussing those issues, and after we have discussed those issues, you may draw your own conclusion, sir. After all, this is a forum that we can have an open exchange of ideas, whether you agree with such idea or not. I have never intended that posting as a ‘veiled threat’ against USAS. In fact, if the existence of USAS is threatened by someone following the procedures outlined under the Amateur Sports Act of 1978, I will offer my free services to USAS to defend it against such legal challenge. I can assure you sir that I will not be on the front line with those who may try to destroy the sports for which my son love very much and the organization I wholeheartedly support which is tasked of promoting our sport.
If you read the last paragraph of my posting, I even urged USAS members to help this fine
organization. I support USAS in promoting our sports and I truly believe that it is doing its best to help amateur shooters. In fact, our junior shooters (our kids), benefitted from its programs. I even encouraged members to invite/recruit new shooters because we have such low attendance in our sports (you mentioned before that you only have 1 or 2 shooters during your State Junior Olympics.) Even one of our elite shooters acknowledged that USAS is "very deficient in many areas." For you to say that “Because USAS does not make changes the way you or others want them to make it doesn’t mean they don’t have the best interest of amateur shooters in mind.” That may be your opinion, sir, but it isn’t certainly mine. In my postings, I even expressed my admiration for the USAS staff members and its volunteers.
I hope I have enlightened you and Fred on these issues.
ratherbe-at-adelphia.net.43340.43335
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Concerned Shooter
Is this the REAL Eric U.? I cannot believe it...
I cannot believe the real Eric U., the ex-Olympian, would talk this way. '..get you clock cleaned.." ???? What's up with that? Unbelievable.
If this is an example of our Army team, or Olympic team members, it's probably in the best interest of everyone that we do not show up at Ft. Benning. What a negative message Eric sent to everyone (yes it was a challenge for anyone good enough to beat him.... sorry he won't get the chance to beat up on a bunch of kids).
And incidentally, who just got THEIR clock cleaned at Camp Perry team matches? :)
I expect full backlash from this, and while "Eric U's" post does have a few good ideas, I still cannot believe it is the REAL Eric. Maybe it was an imposter.
Bob Foth has never, ever talked this way. Nor Launi Meili.
Sorry, I choose to withold my name.
: Ok...I knew I'd get some discussion going with my last post.
: Don't get me wrong, I'm a life member of both the NRA and USA Shooting. They are both very valuable to me. One because it can help me get an Olympic medal, the other because I'm very fond of my right to keep and bear arms. On occasion, I do participate in NRA matches. I just started shooting high-power again this year after an 11 year layoff. I do this for two reasons...highpower can be a lot of fun, and I just can't shoot enough good quality international matches in the area of the country I live in. A good match of any type is better than none at all (it is also helping me remember how to read wind). I also know Mr. Abalo, and his son Chris very well. Those aren't the people I was talking about previously. I also was not talking about the IJ with the "record that could have been" from Phoenix. I agree with PETE. Just look at IRL and CART with open wheel racing. Since they split, both are weaker. Divided we fall.
: The NRA and USA Shooting cannot be the same organization because of International Olympic Committee rules. There is no reason, however, that they cannot work closer together. I freely admit that USA Shooting is very deficient in many areas. Mostly that is because of budget. The reason USA Shooting exists is to cultivate top level shooters. If they can't do that, they lose USOC funding. They also realise that without some form of grass roots program, eventually the top level shooters won't be good enough anymore. Unfortunately, as cash strapped as USA Shooting is, not nearly enough money can go toward entry level programs. They can barely hold the USA Shooting Nationals on their budget, I don't see how they would be able to rent a range at Perry to and entice some of the NRA shooters to give it a try. Since the grass roots programs have traditionally been NRA, that is the type of shooting many of those shooters will likely stay with for life. This is where I wish USA Shooting and the NRA would stop having their pissing contests. If only they used the same equipment and targets, then it wouldn't be such an ordeal to shoot matches for the different organizations (it is frustrating to me that I can't shoot my 300m standard rifle in NRA highpower, because the depth of my stock forend is 90mm instead of 3.25"). Unfortunately, I don't think that will ever happen because of at least a couple of reasons: 1st, the higher management at the NRA still have their feelings hurt because of the split between the NRA and USA Shooting, and refuse to cooperate on anything. 2nd, there are just too many NRA shooters who wouldn't want to change all their gear over to meet USA Shooting (ISSF really) rules. I don't see why we couldn't have an NRA equipment category at USA Shooting matches. Why not? Maybe they don't shoot the finals...maybe they can't win the overall award...but maybe it could be a good introduction to see what else is out there. 300m shooting is almost dead in the USA. I firmly believe that if only a few good NRA shooters tried it, they would be hooked. Of course, getting your clock cleaned by the Army shooters might not entice you to come back. On the other hand, maybe it would...
: Can't we all just get along?
.43345.43325
If this is an example of our Army team, or Olympic team members, it's probably in the best interest of everyone that we do not show up at Ft. Benning. What a negative message Eric sent to everyone (yes it was a challenge for anyone good enough to beat him.... sorry he won't get the chance to beat up on a bunch of kids).
And incidentally, who just got THEIR clock cleaned at Camp Perry team matches? :)
I expect full backlash from this, and while "Eric U's" post does have a few good ideas, I still cannot believe it is the REAL Eric. Maybe it was an imposter.
Bob Foth has never, ever talked this way. Nor Launi Meili.
Sorry, I choose to withold my name.
: Ok...I knew I'd get some discussion going with my last post.
: Don't get me wrong, I'm a life member of both the NRA and USA Shooting. They are both very valuable to me. One because it can help me get an Olympic medal, the other because I'm very fond of my right to keep and bear arms. On occasion, I do participate in NRA matches. I just started shooting high-power again this year after an 11 year layoff. I do this for two reasons...highpower can be a lot of fun, and I just can't shoot enough good quality international matches in the area of the country I live in. A good match of any type is better than none at all (it is also helping me remember how to read wind). I also know Mr. Abalo, and his son Chris very well. Those aren't the people I was talking about previously. I also was not talking about the IJ with the "record that could have been" from Phoenix. I agree with PETE. Just look at IRL and CART with open wheel racing. Since they split, both are weaker. Divided we fall.
: The NRA and USA Shooting cannot be the same organization because of International Olympic Committee rules. There is no reason, however, that they cannot work closer together. I freely admit that USA Shooting is very deficient in many areas. Mostly that is because of budget. The reason USA Shooting exists is to cultivate top level shooters. If they can't do that, they lose USOC funding. They also realise that without some form of grass roots program, eventually the top level shooters won't be good enough anymore. Unfortunately, as cash strapped as USA Shooting is, not nearly enough money can go toward entry level programs. They can barely hold the USA Shooting Nationals on their budget, I don't see how they would be able to rent a range at Perry to and entice some of the NRA shooters to give it a try. Since the grass roots programs have traditionally been NRA, that is the type of shooting many of those shooters will likely stay with for life. This is where I wish USA Shooting and the NRA would stop having their pissing contests. If only they used the same equipment and targets, then it wouldn't be such an ordeal to shoot matches for the different organizations (it is frustrating to me that I can't shoot my 300m standard rifle in NRA highpower, because the depth of my stock forend is 90mm instead of 3.25"). Unfortunately, I don't think that will ever happen because of at least a couple of reasons: 1st, the higher management at the NRA still have their feelings hurt because of the split between the NRA and USA Shooting, and refuse to cooperate on anything. 2nd, there are just too many NRA shooters who wouldn't want to change all their gear over to meet USA Shooting (ISSF really) rules. I don't see why we couldn't have an NRA equipment category at USA Shooting matches. Why not? Maybe they don't shoot the finals...maybe they can't win the overall award...but maybe it could be a good introduction to see what else is out there. 300m shooting is almost dead in the USA. I firmly believe that if only a few good NRA shooters tried it, they would be hooked. Of course, getting your clock cleaned by the Army shooters might not entice you to come back. On the other hand, maybe it would...
: Can't we all just get along?
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Cecil
Do what you've always done.......(long)
Do what you've always done and you'll get what you always got.
I made this initial post with suggestions for getting more shooters into International style. (Somewhat related to a previous post, but was asked for in a much earlier thread if I remember correctly.) As seems to be the case, each subsequent post seemed to degenerate into "who did what", "what happened before" and "why they did / don't do this or that".
This thread was about some suggestions for getting International match supporters and USAS management some ideas to increase participation. As long as you all as a group continue to focus on NRA participation / past experiences / USAS management WITHOUT MAKING SOME ADDITIONAL CHANGES, you will get what you've always got (apparently decreasing participation).
So, if I may be so blunt. If you ain't putting on a match (any type / anywhere), you're part of the problem. Give shooters a chance to shoot, go where they are, help them participate and you might see some results.
If you don't help the Jaycees or Boy Scouts or 4-H just because they are not members of whatever organization you are a member of, that is same as shooting yourself in the foot as far as the shooting sports are concerned. If your problem is politics, or who shoots what dicipline, then you might be part of the problem.
Give interested and intelligent people a chance to shoot and they will participate (See SASS "Cowboy" in the US). Make it easy, fun and non confrontational and the kid in everybody will love it.
Finally, a real suggestion along those lines. If USAS wishes to really cultivate the best shooters possible, the it must find a way to "harvest the crop" from the other shooting sports; however to do so it must also be supported by enough mainstream shooters to provide mathes for that havest to test themselves appropriately and easily. That means UASA members / clubs must provide matches as often and in as many locations as possible. That is why USAS will probably have to come up with a way to supplement, support or entice members to put on matches.
Sorry to go on so long, but this was moving way past what I considered the purpose of the initial post. Just sign me "Someone looking in and scratching his head over this"..
Cecil
.43346.43306
I made this initial post with suggestions for getting more shooters into International style. (Somewhat related to a previous post, but was asked for in a much earlier thread if I remember correctly.) As seems to be the case, each subsequent post seemed to degenerate into "who did what", "what happened before" and "why they did / don't do this or that".
This thread was about some suggestions for getting International match supporters and USAS management some ideas to increase participation. As long as you all as a group continue to focus on NRA participation / past experiences / USAS management WITHOUT MAKING SOME ADDITIONAL CHANGES, you will get what you've always got (apparently decreasing participation).
So, if I may be so blunt. If you ain't putting on a match (any type / anywhere), you're part of the problem. Give shooters a chance to shoot, go where they are, help them participate and you might see some results.
If you don't help the Jaycees or Boy Scouts or 4-H just because they are not members of whatever organization you are a member of, that is same as shooting yourself in the foot as far as the shooting sports are concerned. If your problem is politics, or who shoots what dicipline, then you might be part of the problem.
Give interested and intelligent people a chance to shoot and they will participate (See SASS "Cowboy" in the US). Make it easy, fun and non confrontational and the kid in everybody will love it.
Finally, a real suggestion along those lines. If USAS wishes to really cultivate the best shooters possible, the it must find a way to "harvest the crop" from the other shooting sports; however to do so it must also be supported by enough mainstream shooters to provide mathes for that havest to test themselves appropriately and easily. That means UASA members / clubs must provide matches as often and in as many locations as possible. That is why USAS will probably have to come up with a way to supplement, support or entice members to put on matches.
Sorry to go on so long, but this was moving way past what I considered the purpose of the initial post. Just sign me "Someone looking in and scratching his head over this"..
Cecil
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oh please...
Re: Suggestions for USAShooting - Follow Up to Previous Post
I'm a life member of both the NRA and USA Shooting. They are both very valuable to me.
So, how do YOU support them? I mean, when you haven't been attending matches paid for by my taxes, what have YOU done? When was the last clinic you helped at that you were not on orders?
Since the grass roots programs have traditionally been NRA, that is the type of shooting many of those shooters will likely stay with for life.
Thank God there are some shooters who will compete as a life-long sport
This is where I wish USA Shooting and the NRA would stop having their pissing contests.
Gee, maybe we could start a new "pissing contest" between the "elite" for whom the world revolves and the rest of us.
If only they used the same equipment and targets, then it wouldn't be such an ordeal to shoot matches for the different organizations (it is frustrating to me that I can't shoot my 300m standard rifle in NRA highpower, because the depth of my stock forend is 90mm instead of 3.25").
Get off your ass and run some matches, Eric. Then you could use that 90mm stock. Or, do you just expect everyone else to change their rules for your comfort? Perhaps in being a supported shooter for so long you've grown accustomed to thinking more selfishly than the rest of us can afford to.
Unfortunately, I don't think that will ever happen because of at least a couple of reasons: 1st, the higher management at the NRA still have their feelings hurt because of the split between the NRA and USA Shooting, and refuse to cooperate on anything.
Actually, USAS and the NRA does cooperate on many of the grassroots and coaching programs. Of course, how would you know that? As you stated earlier, your interest in the two organizations is only in the medals that the one can help YOU win and the gun rights that protect YOUR gun.
2nd, there are just too many NRA shooters who wouldn't want to change all their gear over to meet USA Shooting (ISSF really) rules.
Maybe that's because they have to purchase their equipment...
I don't see why we couldn't have an NRA equipment category at USA Shooting matches.
a glimmer of sense?
Why not? Maybe they don't shoot the finals...maybe they can't win the overall award...but maybe it could be a good introduction to see what else is out there.
oh, let's "introduce someone" and deny them the real opportunity to compete. How many matches would you shoot if you were ineligible for awards?
300m shooting is almost dead in the USA.
You mean there are people who deny themselves of your gracious company?
I firmly believe that if only a few good NRA shooters tried it, they would be hooked.
For those of us not paid to shoot, a good portion of the enjoyment of the sport comes from the comraderie of our fellow shooters. Your final comment reflects an attitude that most would find offensive.
Of course, getting your clock cleaned by the Army shooters might not entice you to come back. On the other hand, maybe it would...
One would expect that the Army shooters would represent themselves well. The Army has a tremendous talent pool, facilities, equipment and a budget. Competing against the Army should be challenging, and their scores should act as a benchmark of what is achievable. In fact, as Americans we should take pride in their accomplishments as, in a very real way, they represent us as a nation.
Surprisingly, the Army is not always the top team.
This was evident at Perry (losing in prone to a group of 40 plus year-old women in iron sights, and senior men in any sights, and in 3P to a bunch of juniors).
: Can't we all just get along?
With your previous comments, however could we not live in bliss.
.43347.43325
So, how do YOU support them? I mean, when you haven't been attending matches paid for by my taxes, what have YOU done? When was the last clinic you helped at that you were not on orders?
Since the grass roots programs have traditionally been NRA, that is the type of shooting many of those shooters will likely stay with for life.
Thank God there are some shooters who will compete as a life-long sport
This is where I wish USA Shooting and the NRA would stop having their pissing contests.
Gee, maybe we could start a new "pissing contest" between the "elite" for whom the world revolves and the rest of us.
If only they used the same equipment and targets, then it wouldn't be such an ordeal to shoot matches for the different organizations (it is frustrating to me that I can't shoot my 300m standard rifle in NRA highpower, because the depth of my stock forend is 90mm instead of 3.25").
Get off your ass and run some matches, Eric. Then you could use that 90mm stock. Or, do you just expect everyone else to change their rules for your comfort? Perhaps in being a supported shooter for so long you've grown accustomed to thinking more selfishly than the rest of us can afford to.
Unfortunately, I don't think that will ever happen because of at least a couple of reasons: 1st, the higher management at the NRA still have their feelings hurt because of the split between the NRA and USA Shooting, and refuse to cooperate on anything.
Actually, USAS and the NRA does cooperate on many of the grassroots and coaching programs. Of course, how would you know that? As you stated earlier, your interest in the two organizations is only in the medals that the one can help YOU win and the gun rights that protect YOUR gun.
2nd, there are just too many NRA shooters who wouldn't want to change all their gear over to meet USA Shooting (ISSF really) rules.
Maybe that's because they have to purchase their equipment...
I don't see why we couldn't have an NRA equipment category at USA Shooting matches.
a glimmer of sense?
Why not? Maybe they don't shoot the finals...maybe they can't win the overall award...but maybe it could be a good introduction to see what else is out there.
oh, let's "introduce someone" and deny them the real opportunity to compete. How many matches would you shoot if you were ineligible for awards?
300m shooting is almost dead in the USA.
You mean there are people who deny themselves of your gracious company?
I firmly believe that if only a few good NRA shooters tried it, they would be hooked.
For those of us not paid to shoot, a good portion of the enjoyment of the sport comes from the comraderie of our fellow shooters. Your final comment reflects an attitude that most would find offensive.
Of course, getting your clock cleaned by the Army shooters might not entice you to come back. On the other hand, maybe it would...
One would expect that the Army shooters would represent themselves well. The Army has a tremendous talent pool, facilities, equipment and a budget. Competing against the Army should be challenging, and their scores should act as a benchmark of what is achievable. In fact, as Americans we should take pride in their accomplishments as, in a very real way, they represent us as a nation.
Surprisingly, the Army is not always the top team.
This was evident at Perry (losing in prone to a group of 40 plus year-old women in iron sights, and senior men in any sights, and in 3P to a bunch of juniors).
: Can't we all just get along?
With your previous comments, however could we not live in bliss.
.43347.43325
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LesJ
Re: In this forum, we agree to disagree and your opinion is
Your questions would indicate that you yourself are not sure to "legality" of your points, otherwise they would not be a questions. My belief is that this should be left to a court room . I can not pull plug on your messages so obviously I con not take your free speech away, neither I want to.
When you post anything on this public forum you expose yourself to criticism , otherwise you are trying to limit my free speech.
When you compare number of USAS members with those who complaint I really don't see a problem with USAS especially that those who complaint are not even united in their views. Small number of complainers is actually something to expect taking human nature into account.
You are trying to put spin on something that doesn't exists,
I think because of being sour with the USAS decision.
And that is my opinion and my free speech
.43348.43340
When you post anything on this public forum you expose yourself to criticism , otherwise you are trying to limit my free speech.
When you compare number of USAS members with those who complaint I really don't see a problem with USAS especially that those who complaint are not even united in their views. Small number of complainers is actually something to expect taking human nature into account.
You are trying to put spin on something that doesn't exists,
I think because of being sour with the USAS decision.
And that is my opinion and my free speech
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also concerned
Re: Is this the REAL Eric U.? I cannot believe it...
: Bob Foth has never, ever talked this way. Nor Launi Meili.
The difference between CLASS and ASS
.43351.43345
The difference between CLASS and ASS
.43351.43345
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anon 3
clock cleaned?...get in the real world
since the USAMUis the only real organization shooting 300 m it only makes common sense that that they will on average perfrom better, and SIGNIFICANTLY BETTER than an unfunded indvidual. thus the prhase clock cleaned. I think what Eric said was a vaild, realistic statement, and could just imagine anyone remtotly knowledgly about international shooting saying the same thing. Bob, Launi, Wanda, Nancy,Gary, Lones, Ken, insert medal winner of your choice here
and yes it is ridiculous the rule difference between USAS and NRA. NRA turned down a rule change request from a junior program who was offered a some free 300 m rifles becuase the forearm deptha was about 1/4" too deep. does that really mean anything? then it would open up a lot more off the shelf guns to compete with. but that does'nt support the high paid custom gunsmiths NRA likes to write about
: I cannot believe the real Eric U., the ex-Olympian, would talk this way. '..get you clock cleaned.." ???? What's up with that? Unbelievable.
: If this is an example of our Army team, or Olympic team members, it's probably in the best interest of everyone that we do not show up at Ft. Benning. What a negative message Eric sent to everyone (yes it was a challenge for anyone good enough to beat him.... sorry he won't get the chance to beat up on a bunch of kids).
: And incidentally, who just got THEIR clock cleaned at Camp Perry team matches? :)
: I expect full backlash from this, and while "Eric U's" post does have a few good ideas, I still cannot believe it is the REAL Eric. Maybe it was an imposter.
: Bob Foth has never, ever talked this way. Nor Launi Meili.
: Sorry, I choose to withold my name.
:
: : Ok...I knew I'd get some discussion going with my last post.
: : Don't get me wrong, I'm a life member of both the NRA and USA Shooting. They are both very valuable to me. One because it can help me get an Olympic medal, the other because I'm very fond of my right to keep and bear arms. On occasion, I do participate in NRA matches. I just started shooting high-power again this year after an 11 year layoff. I do this for two reasons...highpower can be a lot of fun, and I just can't shoot enough good quality international matches in the area of the country I live in. A good match of any type is better than none at all (it is also helping me remember how to read wind). I also know Mr. Abalo, and his son Chris very well. Those aren't the people I was talking about previously. I also was not talking about the IJ with the "record that could have been" from Phoenix. I agree with PETE. Just look at IRL and CART with open wheel racing. Since they split, both are weaker. Divided we fall.
: : The NRA and USA Shooting cannot be the same organization because of International Olympic Committee rules. There is no reason, however, that they cannot work closer together. I freely admit that USA Shooting is very deficient in many areas. Mostly that is because of budget. The reason USA Shooting exists is to cultivate top level shooters. If they can't do that, they lose USOC funding. They also realise that without some form of grass roots program, eventually the top level shooters won't be good enough anymore. Unfortunately, as cash strapped as USA Shooting is, not nearly enough money can go toward entry level programs. They can barely hold the USA Shooting Nationals on their budget, I don't see how they would be able to rent a range at Perry to and entice some of the NRA shooters to give it a try. Since the grass roots programs have traditionally been NRA, that is the type of shooting many of those shooters will likely stay with for life. This is where I wish USA Shooting and the NRA would stop having their pissing contests. If only they used the same equipment and targets, then it wouldn't be such an ordeal to shoot matches for the different organizations (it is frustrating to me that I can't shoot my 300m standard rifle in NRA highpower, because the depth of my stock forend is 90mm instead of 3.25"). Unfortunately, I don't think that will ever happen because of at least a couple of reasons: 1st, the higher management at the NRA still have their feelings hurt because of the split between the NRA and USA Shooting, and refuse to cooperate on anything. 2nd, there are just too many NRA shooters who wouldn't want to change all their gear over to meet USA Shooting (ISSF really) rules. I don't see why we couldn't have an NRA equipment category at USA Shooting matches. Why not? Maybe they don't shoot the finals...maybe they can't win the overall award...but maybe it could be a good introduction to see what else is out there. 300m shooting is almost dead in the USA. I firmly believe that if only a few good NRA shooters tried it, they would be hooked. Of course, getting your clock cleaned by the Army shooters might not entice you to come back. On the other hand, maybe it would...
: : Can't we all just get along?
.43352.43345
and yes it is ridiculous the rule difference between USAS and NRA. NRA turned down a rule change request from a junior program who was offered a some free 300 m rifles becuase the forearm deptha was about 1/4" too deep. does that really mean anything? then it would open up a lot more off the shelf guns to compete with. but that does'nt support the high paid custom gunsmiths NRA likes to write about
: I cannot believe the real Eric U., the ex-Olympian, would talk this way. '..get you clock cleaned.." ???? What's up with that? Unbelievable.
: If this is an example of our Army team, or Olympic team members, it's probably in the best interest of everyone that we do not show up at Ft. Benning. What a negative message Eric sent to everyone (yes it was a challenge for anyone good enough to beat him.... sorry he won't get the chance to beat up on a bunch of kids).
: And incidentally, who just got THEIR clock cleaned at Camp Perry team matches? :)
: I expect full backlash from this, and while "Eric U's" post does have a few good ideas, I still cannot believe it is the REAL Eric. Maybe it was an imposter.
: Bob Foth has never, ever talked this way. Nor Launi Meili.
: Sorry, I choose to withold my name.
:
: : Ok...I knew I'd get some discussion going with my last post.
: : Don't get me wrong, I'm a life member of both the NRA and USA Shooting. They are both very valuable to me. One because it can help me get an Olympic medal, the other because I'm very fond of my right to keep and bear arms. On occasion, I do participate in NRA matches. I just started shooting high-power again this year after an 11 year layoff. I do this for two reasons...highpower can be a lot of fun, and I just can't shoot enough good quality international matches in the area of the country I live in. A good match of any type is better than none at all (it is also helping me remember how to read wind). I also know Mr. Abalo, and his son Chris very well. Those aren't the people I was talking about previously. I also was not talking about the IJ with the "record that could have been" from Phoenix. I agree with PETE. Just look at IRL and CART with open wheel racing. Since they split, both are weaker. Divided we fall.
: : The NRA and USA Shooting cannot be the same organization because of International Olympic Committee rules. There is no reason, however, that they cannot work closer together. I freely admit that USA Shooting is very deficient in many areas. Mostly that is because of budget. The reason USA Shooting exists is to cultivate top level shooters. If they can't do that, they lose USOC funding. They also realise that without some form of grass roots program, eventually the top level shooters won't be good enough anymore. Unfortunately, as cash strapped as USA Shooting is, not nearly enough money can go toward entry level programs. They can barely hold the USA Shooting Nationals on their budget, I don't see how they would be able to rent a range at Perry to and entice some of the NRA shooters to give it a try. Since the grass roots programs have traditionally been NRA, that is the type of shooting many of those shooters will likely stay with for life. This is where I wish USA Shooting and the NRA would stop having their pissing contests. If only they used the same equipment and targets, then it wouldn't be such an ordeal to shoot matches for the different organizations (it is frustrating to me that I can't shoot my 300m standard rifle in NRA highpower, because the depth of my stock forend is 90mm instead of 3.25"). Unfortunately, I don't think that will ever happen because of at least a couple of reasons: 1st, the higher management at the NRA still have their feelings hurt because of the split between the NRA and USA Shooting, and refuse to cooperate on anything. 2nd, there are just too many NRA shooters who wouldn't want to change all their gear over to meet USA Shooting (ISSF really) rules. I don't see why we couldn't have an NRA equipment category at USA Shooting matches. Why not? Maybe they don't shoot the finals...maybe they can't win the overall award...but maybe it could be a good introduction to see what else is out there. 300m shooting is almost dead in the USA. I firmly believe that if only a few good NRA shooters tried it, they would be hooked. Of course, getting your clock cleaned by the Army shooters might not entice you to come back. On the other hand, maybe it would...
: : Can't we all just get along?
.43352.43345