CMP Smallbore at Camp Perry 2018?

[NMC_EXP]

The 2018 CMP championships calendar lists a week of smallbore but no details as to discipline(s) involved.

I also saw a report of a CMP Facebook post which stated it will sponsor a smallbore championship at Perry in 2018 and that a firing line will be upgraded for this and new shelters provided.

Anyone else heard anything about this?

[mgdietrich]

Have not heard, but also will not be attending. CMP/NRA split at Camp Perry is fine. I would bet they will get into more "games" types porter events as that is where the attendance numbers are from.

[gwsb]

Christie Sewell, whose Facebook page says she is an employee of CMP, posted the following on Facebook on July 20:

"CMP Smallbore at Camp Perry for the 2018 Nationals Matches. Smallbore Matches will be shot on Rodriquez and Young ranges. Firing line will be set up close to the road for easy access for competitors. The Ohio National Guard plans to cut down the firing line height at 600 yards. Competitors will have a covered firing line provided by the CMP and competitor tents will be allowed behind the firing line. Information on the Course of Fire will be coming soon. We look to accommodate all Smallbore shooters. We welcome all Smallbore competitors back to Camp Perry."

And in response to a question about rifles:

"CMP Smallbore will be match rifle. Rimfire Sporter will also take place during the CMP Smallbore phase."

About the ranges she said:

"The Ohio Guard is cutting down the 600 yard firing line that was built up this past year in 2016- they were raised based on recommendations from the NM partners (NRA, CMP, OHNG) and they ended up a little too high. Smallbore will be set up in front of the 600 yard line - not far from where it was before. CMP Smallbore will be an additional competitive shooting opportunity for smallbore shooters and will give them different date and location options. CMP supports growing the shooting sports in all disciplines."


Other questions might include why they don't release the course of fire since its less than a year out. And as always the Devil is in the details.

These posts were in the Facebook group Bring NRA Smallbore Championships Home to Camp Perry.

[turtlehead]

Who cares if NRA is involved. They made their bed. Just bring Smallbore Nationals to Camp Perry, whoever sanctions it. Maybe Nra can add smallbore to their real desire, and make it 4 gun, they could then hang their hat on that till it's not profitable.

ASSA 3P event was nice with a lot of jrs and even some seasoned veterans competing, having fun, socializing, etc. Competitor meeting was productive, not just a bunch of stuffed shirts blowing smoke. Just picture a real meeting with jrs about the sport, and just to jrs.

[Anschutz]

Christie Sewell, whose Facebook page says she is an employee of CMP, posted the following on Facebook on July 20:

"CMP Smallbore at Camp Perry for the 2018 Nationals Matches. Smallbore Matches will be shot on Rodriquez and Young ranges. Firing line will be set up close to the road for easy access for competitors. The Ohio National Guard plans to cut down the firing line height at 600 yards. Competitors will have a covered firing line provided by the CMP and competitor tents will be allowed behind the firing line. Information on the Course of Fire will be coming soon. We look to accommodate all Smallbore shooters. We welcome all Smallbore competitors back to Camp Perry."

And in response to a question about rifles:

"CMP Smallbore will be match rifle. Rimfire Sporter will also take place during the CMP Smallbore phase."

About the ranges she said:

"The Ohio Guard is cutting down the 600 yard firing line that was built up this past year in 2016- they were raised based on recommendations from the NM partners (NRA, CMP, OHNG) and they ended up a little too high. Smallbore will be set up in front of the 600 yard line - not far from where it was before. CMP Smallbore will be an additional competitive shooting opportunity for smallbore shooters and will give them different date and location options. CMP supports growing the shooting sports in all disciplines."


Other questions might include why they don't release the course of fire since its less than a year out. And as always the Devil is in the details.

These posts were in the Facebook group Bring NRA Smallbore Championships Home to Camp Perry.

1. Regardless of the location such as Cp Perry, this Facebook post (if legit) only mentions a CMP SB National Match. I don't do Facebook; however, Ms Christie is CMP Programs Chief per Internet query. So, will there now be three (3) SB National Matches and in alphabetical order: ASSA, CMP, NRA? However, it does state "the" 2018 National Matches. Last I heard, NRA @ Bristol is still on for 2018.

2. Please note the second paragraph, ("About the ranges she said,") and the second to last statement in "quotes," that CMP SB "will give them different date and location options." This arises to more unanswered questions, but I'm not going there.

3. Personally, I"m going to chill. Wait and see.

Thanks.

[Andre]

When you shoot at the Smallbore Nationals held by the NRA, you are part of a tradition that has been going on since the birth of the world's best smallbore shooters. You can even win trophies that Lones Wigger has won when he was in his prime. Sadly, you can't get that with CMP or ASSA matches. It would be nice to shoot back at Perry, but Bristol has a lot to offer as well. Don't say bad things about Bristol unless you've been there.

[rtucker6508]

We just returned from Bristol and had a fantastic experience!

It was my daughter's 1st experience with an NRA smallbore match (or any other smallbore match for that matter) and it was professionally run. It was on time, efficient and the facilities were outstanding. We are comparing it to the experience at the NRA/CMP Smallbore junior camp the previous week. That was great as well. No complaints for either.

We are very happy with both and would highly recommend the matches at Bristol.

[bdutton]

When you shoot at the Smallbore Nationals held by the NRA, you are part of a tradition that has been going on since the birth of the world's best smallbore shooters. You can even win trophies that Lones Wigger has won when he was in his prime. Sadly, you can't get that with CMP or ASSA matches. It would be nice to shoot back at Perry, but Bristol has a lot to offer as well. Don't say bad things about Bristol unless you've been there.

I've been to Bristol and Camp Perry for smallbore.

Yes... the NRA has the trophies and the history. Maybe if they had listened to the competitors they would have (should have) returned to Camp Perry. Bristol is nice but it had the feel of a well run Regional. Hopefully, the NRA will get its act together and either return to Camp Perry or find a place that has the facilities to run a National level match.

[Andre]

When you shoot at the Smallbore Nationals held by the NRA, you are part of a tradition that has been going on since the birth of the world's best smallbore shooters. You can even win trophies that Lones Wigger has won when he was in his prime. Sadly, you can't get that with CMP or ASSA matches. It would be nice to shoot back at Perry, but Bristol has a lot to offer as well. Don't say bad things about Bristol unless you've been there.

I've been to Bristol and Camp Perry for smallbore.

Yes... the NRA has the trophies and the history. Maybe if they had listened to the competitors they would have (should have) returned to Camp Perry. Bristol is nice but it had the feel of a well run Regional. Hopefully, the NRA will get its act together and either return to Camp Perry or find a place that has the facilities to run a National level match.

Could you please elaborate on why Bristol doesn't have the facilities to handle a national match?

Everybody needs to realize Nationals aren't going back to Camp Perry for a long time, if ever.

They have real bathrooms, places for vendors, a pretty big range, and all the targets are hung nearby so you can look at your prone targets while in the middle of offhand, for example.

The reason it's not the same as perry is because nobody is going, and complaining to everybody else how "bad" it is. No vendors or food trucks are staying because they have no business.

The NRA had a change of staff and held two shooter meetings asking for input and a lot of things are said to happen soon. Let's see what happens.

It's a match. Shoot it. It's not perry, but it's still the NRA national matches.

[bdutton]

When you shoot at the Smallbore Nationals held by the NRA, you are part of a tradition that has been going on since the birth of the world's best smallbore shooters. You can even win trophies that Lones Wigger has won when he was in his prime. Sadly, you can't get that with CMP or ASSA matches. It would be nice to shoot back at Perry, but Bristol has a lot to offer as well. Don't say bad things about Bristol unless you've been there.

I've been to Bristol and Camp Perry for smallbore.

Yes... the NRA has the trophies and the history. Maybe if they had listened to the competitors they would have (should have) returned to Camp Perry. Bristol is nice but it had the feel of a well run Regional. Hopefully, the NRA will get its act together and either return to Camp Perry or find a place that has the facilities to run a National level match.

Could you please elaborate on why Bristol doesn't have the facilities to handle a national match?

Everybody needs to realize Nationals aren't going back to Camp Perry for a long time, if ever.

They have real bathrooms, places for vendors, a pretty big range, and all the targets are hung nearby so you can look at your prone targets while in the middle of offhand, for example.

The reason it's not the same as perry is because nobody is going, and complaining to everybody else how "bad" it is. No vendors or food trucks are staying because they have no business.

The NRA had a change of staff and held two shooter meetings asking for input and a lot of things are said to happen soon. Let's see what happens.

It's a match. Shoot it. It's not perry, but it's still the NRA national matches.

I went in 2015. Cost nearly twice to stay for the week compared to Perry (my team stayed in huts). The NRA lied about the reasons they left Perry. They ignored the competitors who voted 3 to 1 in favor of moving back to Perry (the main reason I went in 2015). There are no vendors at Bristol. No food options like we had at Perry. There were no gunsmiths if there was a problem. There was nothing to do in Bristol when not shooting (except for the RV Hall of fame and Museum!).

I also have limited time and money to go to multiple matches. I chose the past two years to go to the USA Shooting Nationals because the is where you NEED to go if you have a junior looking at shooting in college.

Hopefully, the NRA will make the necessary changes in their management of the competitions division to make them more relevant in the future.

[Andre]

The NRA rep at Bristol addressed said issue of the lie. They did not give reason other than that the staff who made an empty promise had been replaced.

The issue about no vendors is truthful, and it's because of people claiming how bad Bristol is. They are scaring away people who have never shot matches like it and competitor numbers are dropping. Once more people are in attendance, more vendors will show up. We can't being people to the match when people are saying how terrible it is. I'm guilty of this myself, however my thoughts about Bristol have changed for the better now that I've shot there for two years.

I don't think many of the 350+ people who used to shoot at perry stayed in the huts, so the hotel issue may not be applicable to most competitors.


I stand by my word; it's a match, shoot it. It's the same match, and although it's not perry it's still the NRA nationals. Complaining on forums does get you opinion heard, but you can also be heard by emailing the NRA board as suggested by the NRA rep at Bristol this year. Posting all over about how bad it is only makes everybody part of the problem that results in scaring away potentional competitors.

[Anschutz]

NRA had conducted “the” National Match at C.P. for years then the move to Bristol. Enter ASSA’s National Match and now possibly “A” CMP National Match in 2018 at C.P. It was stated in a meeting at NRA’s SB National Matches that the firing lines at Camp Perry are torn up. As a former fulltime Army Guardsman in HQS Force Readiness, I can say that rebuilding ranges with Guard Engineer Units is easier said than done. Perhaps the State of Ohio has other plans than many shooting ranges. I have no idea whatsoever, so PLEASE do not misquote or start rumors! Guard units are usually stretched thin for stateside projects; however, looks like CMP may get some of it done, soon, per the Facebook excerpt above.

Many times, people don’t sit back and examine the BIG picture. Within that, one must look at the factual numbers/participation and ask questions:

Facts/Questions:

-NRA SB Prone National Matches dipped below 100 at 87 or 88 at Bristol. Not sure about 3P. I have a shooting bud (Deep South) that shot the SB Prone Bristol Match, and said that he’s going to return.
-ASSA National Match: First 3P match at 37 or so, and 35 or 36 were juniors. So what’s that – about 40% of the NRA Prone numbers? And no, I'm not comparing apples to oranges but looking at junior numbers. The first ASSA Prone match @ about 20 and what’s that – about 20% of NRA Prone numbers? What will the NRA do if the Bristol participation continues to decline? I’m not implying that the two organizations are competing with one another as the ASSA President stated otherwise on the ASSA Website “within” a question and answer “blog.”
-CMP: C.P. in 2018?
-Deep South: Talladega (CMP) is a premium range. There are a select “few” Regionals or State Matches here in the Deep South.
-West: Western Wildcat
-Northerly West: Raton Match but have not seen results for 2017.
-Shootings costs will continue to rise. As “dbutton’’ stated above, many shooters have limitations.

Will there be “A” National Match at three locations in 2018? Which one is “the” National Match? Many will most likely say, “The NRA,” because of history. Does it appear that our sport is becoming more “Regionalized” for “A” National Match? Is this good or bad? Seems like that would depend on the shooter. How many juniors were at Bristol? Yes, many juniors will drop out after High School if no scholarship or continued parental support. But, I think the ASSA is a “positive” for those juniors in the New England States. Some may possibly be able to compete more. Sure, ALL are welcome to compete – just less travel for ‘those’ juniors. Perhaps more of the New Englanders will be able to obtain scholarships and/or represent the U.S. in International Competition some day or join the Military and compete.

Leaders of Organizations need to be wary of contradicting themselves. Even the “appearance” of such has lasting effects that may not ever be overcome. That’s just a fact of life.

There’s one thing for sure -- Smallbore is going to be interesting the next few years or so.

*Please note that I’m not bashing any organization or location.

[Andre]

George Norton made a good point at Bristol this year, that with every new "national" match, the amount of shooters who can participate in each match spreads thinner and thinner. Now that CMP and ASSA matches are a thing, people will shoot those instead of the NRA match.

[mbradley]

I can tell you from experience that when small, niche sports and disciplines start to fracture and create multiple associations, it destroys the sport and any sense of cohension. Look at the sport of Powerlifting and what it went through in the 80s and 90s. It still has not recovered. Small bore and all the Olympic and International style disciplines need to stick together or soon find themselves obsolete.

[turtlehead]

ASSA does not limit itself to the "New England" states shooting community, so lets get that idea out of the way now. ASSA was created to basically show the NRA how dipleased many shooters are with the way they have handled the sport for several years. The NRA didn't listen to their competitors and kept going in the direction THEYwanted to go. And not until the ASSA was in it's infancy and the CMP showed interest in the sport, did the NRA fold their hand and clean out at the top. ASSA will only be there as long as it needs to be, until all smallbore shooters can come together once again. They only held their match in CT due to logistics and time. Next year it could be anywhere else. And hopefully there might not need to be a need for ASSA.

When you just site around complaining, nothing gets done. So you can atleast agree that the board of ASSA took action.

[Anschutz]

ASSA does not limit itself to the "New England" states shooting community, so lets get that idea out of the way now. ASSA was created to basically show the NRA how dipleased many shooters are with the way they have handled the sport for several years. The NRA didn't listen to their competitors and kept going in the direction THEYwanted to go. And not until the ASSA was in it's infancy and the CMP showed interest in the sport, did the NRA fold their hand and clean out at the top. ASSA will only be there as long as it needs to be, until all smallbore shooters can come together once again. They only held their match in CT due to logistics and time. Next year it could be anywhere else. And hopefully there might not need to be a need for ASSA.

When you just site around complaining, nothing gets done. So you can atleast agree that the board of ASSA took action.

Good post. Yep, ASSA Leaders took action and did so in a professional manner.

[proneshooter]

I attended Camp Perry from 1992 until the move to Bristol. Staying in the huts with several friends plus another hut of juniors was part of the Camp Perry experience. Our party averaged 6 to 8 competitors. The commercial row stores allowed me to purchase ammo and new toys. The shopping was also part of the Camp Perry experience. Heading to Port Clinton for dinner and Walmart shopping plus the stops at the CMP store. It was fun and a great learning experience for the juniors. We currently have nothing even close. I hope to see it return in some form to Camp Perry before I'm too old to shoot!

[mbradley]

I'd like to ask a question in all sincerity as I do not know the answer: If there is so much dissatisfaction with the NRA and smallbore, why not act within the structure of USA shooting? I mean besides the demand for the convential NRA target, everyone I speak with wishes USA shooting would hold more events, especially those with electronic targets. What is it about the current structure that prevents motivated people from working within the USA shooting to improve our sport?

[1813benny]

To be succinct, there are many more differences than just the conventional vs ISU targets.

Conventional also incorporates the use of scopes for many matches and the equipment rules are no where as stringent as those required for ISU / USA Shooting events. It would necessitate a second set of USA Shooting rules ("conventional"), ranges that extend to 100 yards (for prone events) and the addition of 4 position to the mix just to mention a few off the top of my head.

While the sports are similar, attempting to mesh conventional disciplines into USA Shooting would not be simple as they are not easily compatible.

ASSA fully supports the efforts of USA Shooting to develop our shooting athletes for international competition. As mentioned before, we are not exactly compatible, however if a sound opportunity presents itself, ASSA would be open to working together to grow our sports.

Regards,
ken benyo
secretary/treasurer
ASSA

[beye]

Camp Perry and the National Matches were always synonymous. When a shooter spoke of shooting at Perry, we knew it was the National Matches. One without the other diminishes the whole meaning and it will take a long time before Bristol/Atterbury/or wherever will have the same meaning as Perry (if ever) and attendance will show it. Replacing the staff that assured the move was temporary is simply using them as a scapegoat. An organization cannot simply disavow responsibility for its actions by firing its spokespersons. You would have to being pretty naive to believe that no one above them in the NRA hierarchy knew of their actions (unless they were living on Mars at the time). They simply didn't care what the smallbore shooters wanted and thought they would follow wherever the National Matches were held. Attendance showed them differently and we will see if they really do care about what smallbore shooters want. As for DCM and ASSA diluting attendance, the NRA did that when they decided to farm out the different disciplines to different ranges. You can no longer go to Perry (or anywhere) and shoot any or all of the National Matches you want.