All,
I first want to thank you all for your comments, both pro and con, regarding my recent post covering the current national record policy at USAS.
Since I seem to be the one who 'kicked over the ant hill,' I should also have some reasonable suggestions on what a fair and balanced National Record criteria and policy ought to be.
Here's my take on the subject:
Any athlete should be able to set a national record in any event, in any USAS (or ISSF) sanctioned competition, regardless of the number of athletes competing in that event, including for all age group and reduced distance records, as long as all the following conditions are met:
1: The athlete is a current member of USAS
2: The competition is sanctioned by USAS (or ISSF)
3: The match organizers and/or jury certify in writing that the match was conducted in accordance with the current USAS (or ISSF) rules for targets, distance, course of fire, timing and equipment.
4: The athlete's score and a national record request are submitted by match organizers in writing to USAS for certification in a timely manner, say within 90 days from the date of the match.
I think that in a nutshell, is the fair and balanced policy to follow.
While I don't agree that any given minimum number of shooters or the stature of an event makes or breaks a new national record, for the die-hard faction who might feel it is important to have a minumum number of shooters on the line and/or it must to be set in a 'big match' to make it 'official' we might also decide that the 'national, open class, full distance record' in any given event can ONLY be set in a USASNC or a Selection match, or in a WC, WCF, WCH, PAG, CAT or at the OG's, and must have a minimum of 5 shooters in the event at that competition.
In the interest of full disclosure, I still see either any 'minimum number of athletes' and/or any 'big match limitation' as being unfair to the athlete on it's face, but I'll throw it out on the table as a possible compromise for those of you who might hold other views.
I am open to further debate and welcome your imput on the subject. Discussion on these issues is a very, very healthy thing. We need much more of it in the ranks of the shooting sports athletes.
I also suggest that we come up with some specific language that is acceptable to the majority of our athletes and put forward our collective concerns and ideas on this issue to the USAS BOD at their next meeting.
Thanks again to all of you for your input.
Scott
submoa-at-aol.com.43225.0
Thoughts on a New USAS Policy on Setting National Records
Moderators: rexifelis, pilkguns
-
Donald Matzeder
Re: Thoughts on a New USAS Policy on Setting National Record
The only justification that I can think of for requiring a minimum number of shooters is if the winner got a free pass to the Nationals or some such. The purpose of a standard target and standard scoreing methods is to make scores compareable throughout the sport. When an event is sanctioned, it presupposes the technical expertice and honesty of the organizers. Your proposal is just common sence to me and the "right" thing to do.
: All,
: I first want to thank you all for your comments, both pro and con, regarding my recent post covering the current national record policy at USAS.
: Since I seem to be the one who 'kicked over the ant hill,' I should also have some reasonable suggestions on what a fair and balanced National Record criteria and policy ought to be.
: Here's my take on the subject:
: Any athlete should be able to set a national record in any event, in any USAS (or ISSF) sanctioned competition, regardless of the number of athletes competing in that event, including for all age group and reduced distance records, as long as all the following conditions are met:
: 1: The athlete is a current member of USAS
: 2: The competition is sanctioned by USAS (or ISSF)
: 3: The match organizers and/or jury certify in writing that the match was conducted in accordance with the current USAS (or ISSF) rules for targets, distance, course of fire, timing and equipment.
: 4: The athlete's score and a national record request are submitted by match organizers in writing to USAS for certification in a timely manner, say within 90 days from the date of the match.
: I think that in a nutshell, is the fair and balanced policy to follow.
: While I don't agree that any given minimum number of shooters or the stature of an event makes or breaks a new national record, for the die-hard faction who might feel it is important to have a minumum number of shooters on the line and/or it must to be set in a 'big match' to make it 'official' we might also decide that the 'national, open class, full distance record' in any given event can ONLY be set in a USASNC or a Selection match, or in a WC, WCF, WCH, PAG, CAT or at the OG's, and must have a minimum of 5 shooters in the event at that competition.
: In the interest of full disclosure, I still see either any 'minimum number of athletes' and/or any 'big match limitation' as being unfair to the athlete on it's face, but I'll throw it out on the table as a possible compromise for those of you who might hold other views.
: I am open to further debate and welcome your imput on the subject. Discussion on these issues is a very, very healthy thing. We need much more of it in the ranks of the shooting sports athletes.
: I also suggest that we come up with some specific language that is acceptable to the majority of our athletes and put forward our collective concerns and ideas on this issue to the USAS BOD at their next meeting.
: Thanks again to all of you for your input.
: Scott
matzeder-at-direcpc.com.43229.43225
: All,
: I first want to thank you all for your comments, both pro and con, regarding my recent post covering the current national record policy at USAS.
: Since I seem to be the one who 'kicked over the ant hill,' I should also have some reasonable suggestions on what a fair and balanced National Record criteria and policy ought to be.
: Here's my take on the subject:
: Any athlete should be able to set a national record in any event, in any USAS (or ISSF) sanctioned competition, regardless of the number of athletes competing in that event, including for all age group and reduced distance records, as long as all the following conditions are met:
: 1: The athlete is a current member of USAS
: 2: The competition is sanctioned by USAS (or ISSF)
: 3: The match organizers and/or jury certify in writing that the match was conducted in accordance with the current USAS (or ISSF) rules for targets, distance, course of fire, timing and equipment.
: 4: The athlete's score and a national record request are submitted by match organizers in writing to USAS for certification in a timely manner, say within 90 days from the date of the match.
: I think that in a nutshell, is the fair and balanced policy to follow.
: While I don't agree that any given minimum number of shooters or the stature of an event makes or breaks a new national record, for the die-hard faction who might feel it is important to have a minumum number of shooters on the line and/or it must to be set in a 'big match' to make it 'official' we might also decide that the 'national, open class, full distance record' in any given event can ONLY be set in a USASNC or a Selection match, or in a WC, WCF, WCH, PAG, CAT or at the OG's, and must have a minimum of 5 shooters in the event at that competition.
: In the interest of full disclosure, I still see either any 'minimum number of athletes' and/or any 'big match limitation' as being unfair to the athlete on it's face, but I'll throw it out on the table as a possible compromise for those of you who might hold other views.
: I am open to further debate and welcome your imput on the subject. Discussion on these issues is a very, very healthy thing. We need much more of it in the ranks of the shooting sports athletes.
: I also suggest that we come up with some specific language that is acceptable to the majority of our athletes and put forward our collective concerns and ideas on this issue to the USAS BOD at their next meeting.
: Thanks again to all of you for your input.
: Scott
matzeder-at-direcpc.com.43229.43225
-
Mark Dennehy
Re: Thoughts on a New USAS Policy on Setting National Record
I find it odd that this is not already the rule regarding records. It certainly is here in Ireland. And it's not like we're particularly enlightened...
mark.dennehy-at-cs.tcd.ie.43230.43229
mark.dennehy-at-cs.tcd.ie.43230.43229
-
David M
Aussie Records
Australian National records can only be set at State titles, National titles or higher level competition (Olympics,World cups etc.) by members of Pistol Australia.
This automatically covers the miminum numbers and sanctioned match criteria.
.43231.43225
This automatically covers the miminum numbers and sanctioned match criteria.
.43231.43225
-
PW
Re: Aussie Records
Indeed. As you know Dave I think you were there when a disabled shooter shot a possible National record (was it Free?) at an Open at SPC, but it wasn't State level or higher, and therefore wasn't valid.
We all know (or should know) the rules, the shooter was fine with it. I think the State or higher rule is fine, it's comparitively easy to shoot high scores at your local club on a weekend, as opposed to a State or National Champs.
.43232.43231
We all know (or should know) the rules, the shooter was fine with it. I think the State or higher rule is fine, it's comparitively easy to shoot high scores at your local club on a weekend, as opposed to a State or National Champs.
.43232.43231
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Curt
Re: Thoughts on a New USAS Policy on Setting National Record
I would also have the targets, if paper targets were used, submitted to USAS.
: 4: The athlete's score and a national record request are submitted by match organizers in writing to USAS for certification in a timely manner, say within 90 days from the date of the match.
gunsmoke-at-toast.net.43250.43225
: 4: The athlete's score and a national record request are submitted by match organizers in writing to USAS for certification in a timely manner, say within 90 days from the date of the match.
gunsmoke-at-toast.net.43250.43225
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PETE
Prefered world vs Reality
In the prefered world, international shooting would have a large following and would be a major force in the minds of the shooting public. Participation would make this a non-issue, every PTO would be so well attended that the problem with setting a record would be getting an entry, rather than hoping there are enough entries.
If the prefered world with lots of entries were the case, having a minimum entry might make sense. Buuba & Jethro would not be able to hold mini-secret PTOs in their basement and have it count for much. But competitive shooters generally seem to want participation, so I am not sure there is really an issue.
Scott may be very well thought out on this issue. I wonder what the orginal thinking might have been?
: All,
: I first want to thank you all for your comments, both pro and con, regarding my recent post covering the current national record policy at USAS.
: Since I seem to be the one who 'kicked over the ant hill,' I should also have some reasonable suggestions on what a fair and balanced National Record criteria and policy ought to be.
: Here's my take on the subject:
: Any athlete should be able to set a national record in any event, in any USAS (or ISSF) sanctioned competition, regardless of the number of athletes competing in that event, including for all age group and reduced distance records, as long as all the following conditions are met:
: 1: The athlete is a current member of USAS
: 2: The competition is sanctioned by USAS (or ISSF)
: 3: The match organizers and/or jury certify in writing that the match was conducted in accordance with the current USAS (or ISSF) rules for targets, distance, course of fire, timing and equipment.
: 4: The athlete's score and a national record request are submitted by match organizers in writing to USAS for certification in a timely manner, say within 90 days from the date of the match.
: I think that in a nutshell, is the fair and balanced policy to follow.
: While I don't agree that any given minimum number of shooters or the stature of an event makes or breaks a new national record, for the die-hard faction who might feel it is important to have a minumum number of shooters on the line and/or it must to be set in a 'big match' to make it 'official' we might also decide that the 'national, open class, full distance record' in any given event can ONLY be set in a USASNC or a Selection match, or in a WC, WCF, WCH, PAG, CAT or at the OG's, and must have a minimum of 5 shooters in the event at that competition.
: In the interest of full disclosure, I still see either any 'minimum number of athletes' and/or any 'big match limitation' as being unfair to the athlete on it's face, but I'll throw it out on the table as a possible compromise for those of you who might hold other views.
: I am open to further debate and welcome your imput on the subject. Discussion on these issues is a very, very healthy thing. We need much more of it in the ranks of the shooting sports athletes.
: I also suggest that we come up with some specific language that is acceptable to the majority of our athletes and put forward our collective concerns and ideas on this issue to the USAS BOD at their next meeting.
: Thanks again to all of you for your input.
: Scott
.43252.43225
If the prefered world with lots of entries were the case, having a minimum entry might make sense. Buuba & Jethro would not be able to hold mini-secret PTOs in their basement and have it count for much. But competitive shooters generally seem to want participation, so I am not sure there is really an issue.
Scott may be very well thought out on this issue. I wonder what the orginal thinking might have been?
: All,
: I first want to thank you all for your comments, both pro and con, regarding my recent post covering the current national record policy at USAS.
: Since I seem to be the one who 'kicked over the ant hill,' I should also have some reasonable suggestions on what a fair and balanced National Record criteria and policy ought to be.
: Here's my take on the subject:
: Any athlete should be able to set a national record in any event, in any USAS (or ISSF) sanctioned competition, regardless of the number of athletes competing in that event, including for all age group and reduced distance records, as long as all the following conditions are met:
: 1: The athlete is a current member of USAS
: 2: The competition is sanctioned by USAS (or ISSF)
: 3: The match organizers and/or jury certify in writing that the match was conducted in accordance with the current USAS (or ISSF) rules for targets, distance, course of fire, timing and equipment.
: 4: The athlete's score and a national record request are submitted by match organizers in writing to USAS for certification in a timely manner, say within 90 days from the date of the match.
: I think that in a nutshell, is the fair and balanced policy to follow.
: While I don't agree that any given minimum number of shooters or the stature of an event makes or breaks a new national record, for the die-hard faction who might feel it is important to have a minumum number of shooters on the line and/or it must to be set in a 'big match' to make it 'official' we might also decide that the 'national, open class, full distance record' in any given event can ONLY be set in a USASNC or a Selection match, or in a WC, WCF, WCH, PAG, CAT or at the OG's, and must have a minimum of 5 shooters in the event at that competition.
: In the interest of full disclosure, I still see either any 'minimum number of athletes' and/or any 'big match limitation' as being unfair to the athlete on it's face, but I'll throw it out on the table as a possible compromise for those of you who might hold other views.
: I am open to further debate and welcome your imput on the subject. Discussion on these issues is a very, very healthy thing. We need much more of it in the ranks of the shooting sports athletes.
: I also suggest that we come up with some specific language that is acceptable to the majority of our athletes and put forward our collective concerns and ideas on this issue to the USAS BOD at their next meeting.
: Thanks again to all of you for your input.
: Scott
.43252.43225
-
Bob Wiard
*big sigh* My Thoughts
After following this thread for a while, these are my though this subject:
USAS should not change it policy, but USAS should post rule updates monthly on site until, they can be included in the annual up date in printed form.
That said;
1. The rule concerning the number of people entered into a match, for a record to count, has been on the books for a while. Stan Pace, when he was running PTOs at Lafayette Gun Club, announced the rule change to participants one Sunday morning long ago prior to the 2002 VA state championships.
1.a. New rule updates are posted monthly in the USAS Shooting publication.
2. It is the shooters responsibility to know all the rules, both generally & specifically to his/her discipline.
2a. The coach should have known.
blacksmith.bobs-at-erols.com.43269.43225
USAS should not change it policy, but USAS should post rule updates monthly on site until, they can be included in the annual up date in printed form.
That said;
1. The rule concerning the number of people entered into a match, for a record to count, has been on the books for a while. Stan Pace, when he was running PTOs at Lafayette Gun Club, announced the rule change to participants one Sunday morning long ago prior to the 2002 VA state championships.
1.a. New rule updates are posted monthly in the USAS Shooting publication.
2. It is the shooters responsibility to know all the rules, both generally & specifically to his/her discipline.
2a. The coach should have known.
blacksmith.bobs-at-erols.com.43269.43225
-
Mako
Specifics on Phoenix Club PTO's
Our Phoenix Club USA Shooting PTO's were organized by Ed Abalo, Chris's dad. Chris is one of our up and coming elite RIFLE shooters ... member of the U.S. National Development Team ... and his dad was providing air rifle matches for Chris by starting up this match. Ed also allowed pistol shooters ... but wanted to make sure that there was always room for the rifle shooters. There are 15 shooting positions at the Phoenix Club range. At the match where Sean Ragay shot his new J2 personal best there where 9 AP shooters and I believe 5 AR shooters. Usually there are a few more AR shooters. I'm sure Ed would make it First Come First Served ... but having the required 10 AP shooters would start cutting into the amount of shooter positions available for the AR shooters.
Having additional matches is not practical because of the schedule of our volunteers and the schedule of the Phoenix Club itself.
We are however very fortunate to have another monthly AP PTO in the area ... which Sean Ragay also attends ... and we always have at least 10 shooters there ... so Sean will just have to step up to the line and shoot another record - which I know he will be able to do without problem.
USA Shooting does have a point. It's goal is to create shooters that can compete on the world stage ... so it's important that we shooters can perform at our best at the bigger matches.
IMHO, If you are good enough to be shooting records you should be going to the bigger matches and trying to do it there ...
makofoto-at-earthlink.net.43271.43225
Having additional matches is not practical because of the schedule of our volunteers and the schedule of the Phoenix Club itself.
We are however very fortunate to have another monthly AP PTO in the area ... which Sean Ragay also attends ... and we always have at least 10 shooters there ... so Sean will just have to step up to the line and shoot another record - which I know he will be able to do without problem.
USA Shooting does have a point. It's goal is to create shooters that can compete on the world stage ... so it's important that we shooters can perform at our best at the bigger matches.
IMHO, If you are good enough to be shooting records you should be going to the bigger matches and trying to do it there ...
makofoto-at-earthlink.net.43271.43225
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Anon
Red tape & USAS
ISSF type shooting is small enough as it is. Rediculous rules like what I've seen (10 competitors... why THAT number) is not good for USAS. How many clubs are running ISSF matches anyhow? Unfortunately, their inadequacies and poor judgment will only cause more clubs to stop running matches, or to "go NRA".
Or was the 10-person rule an EFFECT of not having many shooters at matches? In other words, do we think USAS tried to make the sport grow my requiring 10 shooters, in hopes that clubs will actually make that number?
If that's so, then we're in big trouble. If that's so, I'll go "all NRA".
Anon (sorry)
: After following this thread for a while, these are my though this subject:
: USAS should not change it policy, but USAS should post rule updates monthly on site until, they can be included in the annual up date in printed form.
: That said;
: 1. The rule concerning the number of people entered into a match, for a record to count, has been on the books for a while. Stan Pace, when he was running PTOs at Lafayette Gun Club, announced the rule change to participants one Sunday morning long ago prior to the 2002 VA state championships.
: 1.a. New rule updates are posted monthly in the USAS Shooting publication.
: 2. It is the shooters responsibility to know all the rules, both generally & specifically to his/her discipline.
: 2a. The coach should have known.
.43273.43269
Or was the 10-person rule an EFFECT of not having many shooters at matches? In other words, do we think USAS tried to make the sport grow my requiring 10 shooters, in hopes that clubs will actually make that number?
If that's so, then we're in big trouble. If that's so, I'll go "all NRA".
Anon (sorry)
: After following this thread for a while, these are my though this subject:
: USAS should not change it policy, but USAS should post rule updates monthly on site until, they can be included in the annual up date in printed form.
: That said;
: 1. The rule concerning the number of people entered into a match, for a record to count, has been on the books for a while. Stan Pace, when he was running PTOs at Lafayette Gun Club, announced the rule change to participants one Sunday morning long ago prior to the 2002 VA state championships.
: 1.a. New rule updates are posted monthly in the USAS Shooting publication.
: 2. It is the shooters responsibility to know all the rules, both generally & specifically to his/her discipline.
: 2a. The coach should have known.
.43273.43269
-
Eric U
USA Shooting National Records
All,
The reason there is a minimum number of participants rule in USA Shooting's rule book for national records is that the ISSF rule book has a similar rule for world records, and USA Shooting pretty much copied their technical rules from the ISSF. The ISSF rule actually states 15 shooters for individual records, and certain number of teams for team records.
Last Fall, Sandra, my wife, shattered the Sport Pistol record at the fall selection match (not Bubba's basement). Alas...there were less then 15 (the rule at the time) ladies shooting that event...no record. When I called USA Shooting to check on the status of Sandra's record request, I was informed that it didn't count. When I stated that the previous record was set at a match with only 14 participants, the former record was also removed.
It appears that USA Shooting is actually trying to be kinder and more reasonable by lowering this threshold from 15 to 10. I agree that there needs to be some kind of controls to keep those less than honest people out there from "helping" their kid to a record they didn't earn. Not that this is an epidemic, but it is a problem. There are just enough people out there setting up a one or two person shooting match in their basement and Shazam!, a shooter nobody has ever heard of sets a record with a score they've never approached before, and amazingly, never approach again.
Personally, I think records should only be set at certian named matches (nationals, regionals and such), or at least with a USA Shooting referee present (not Jim-Bob's dad). If records are restricted to these matches, the minimum number of participants restriction could be removed.
To address another person's comment about NRA vs USA Shooting. Part of the reason for this record problem is NRA actually drains the talent and participant pool from Olympic style shooting events. In most of the rest of the world, there is only Olympic style shooting. There isn't some other body diluting the talent pool. Just imagine if all the NRA shooters dedicated their talents and enthusiasm toward getting an Olympic medal! There is so much more than Camp Perry! Oh well, I guess some of these NRA guys just can't get over the fact that the targets are a little harder. The center is still in the center...regardless of what the final score ends up like. Try it, you might like it!
If you want to label me as an International Snob, then go ahead. I've been quite successful in both types of shooting, and I prefer international. No amount of NRA award points can beat standing on the top of the awards stand and hearing your national anthem played FOR YOU!
Eric
.43280.43225
The reason there is a minimum number of participants rule in USA Shooting's rule book for national records is that the ISSF rule book has a similar rule for world records, and USA Shooting pretty much copied their technical rules from the ISSF. The ISSF rule actually states 15 shooters for individual records, and certain number of teams for team records.
Last Fall, Sandra, my wife, shattered the Sport Pistol record at the fall selection match (not Bubba's basement). Alas...there were less then 15 (the rule at the time) ladies shooting that event...no record. When I called USA Shooting to check on the status of Sandra's record request, I was informed that it didn't count. When I stated that the previous record was set at a match with only 14 participants, the former record was also removed.
It appears that USA Shooting is actually trying to be kinder and more reasonable by lowering this threshold from 15 to 10. I agree that there needs to be some kind of controls to keep those less than honest people out there from "helping" their kid to a record they didn't earn. Not that this is an epidemic, but it is a problem. There are just enough people out there setting up a one or two person shooting match in their basement and Shazam!, a shooter nobody has ever heard of sets a record with a score they've never approached before, and amazingly, never approach again.
Personally, I think records should only be set at certian named matches (nationals, regionals and such), or at least with a USA Shooting referee present (not Jim-Bob's dad). If records are restricted to these matches, the minimum number of participants restriction could be removed.
To address another person's comment about NRA vs USA Shooting. Part of the reason for this record problem is NRA actually drains the talent and participant pool from Olympic style shooting events. In most of the rest of the world, there is only Olympic style shooting. There isn't some other body diluting the talent pool. Just imagine if all the NRA shooters dedicated their talents and enthusiasm toward getting an Olympic medal! There is so much more than Camp Perry! Oh well, I guess some of these NRA guys just can't get over the fact that the targets are a little harder. The center is still in the center...regardless of what the final score ends up like. Try it, you might like it!
If you want to label me as an International Snob, then go ahead. I've been quite successful in both types of shooting, and I prefer international. No amount of NRA award points can beat standing on the top of the awards stand and hearing your national anthem played FOR YOU!
Eric
.43280.43225
-
Cecil
Just Had to Say Something
Yes, there should be a limit for records. NRA has to be at Registered, USAS has number. It's a rule, abide by it until it is changed.
Diluting the talent pool? Well, let's figure out who filled up the tub first and then wonder who made the bubbles. Why doesn't USAShooting try to work WITH those of us who set up and run matches (NRA in my case)? Why do I need to contribute to ANOTHER organization that sets up matches I can't make it to without another week of vacation when my kids are in school. Major International matches around here are few, far between and mostly calendar challenged (at least for me). (keep reading before you say anything)
Paraphrasing what one of the "elete" posters on this forum said earlier "I should have to sacrifice even more for the sport to make the matches." Naa, I'll shoot and keep setting up matches that people can shoot with an organization with a broad appeal base. By the way, even when one of the best conventional shooters competed in a recent WC event, the powers that be did not seem to respond very well. (keep reading)
If USAShooting asks for help, then I'll try to oblige, but as stated by others (and by themselves as their goal) they are not in the business of helping keep me shooting, just finding good shooters.
And don't get the wrong, I wish them well, support their efforts and I AM a member. (Do all you US posters have memberships?) BUT holding a match shooters don't show up at will not do anything but drain my resources and whining about "diluting the pool" is kinda strange when it's so hard for me to take a dip is a little disconcerting.
I'll be happy to shoot on any target I can find as long as it's at a match I can get to and that people will show up for.
Back at you on the target comment: (The targets might be a little harder, "accent on" but we don't need no stinking sighters to get started.)
One final comment to all organizations: FACE the facts, the majority of shooters in all type of shooting are fairly average at best. However they provide the background support for all, from the newest shooter to the national or olympic champion. You can't be the best without someone else helping to hold AND raise the bar.
Cecil Rhodes
NRA and USAS
: To address another person's comment about NRA vs USA Shooting. Part of the reason for this record problem is NRA actually drains the talent and participant pool from Olympic style shooting events. In most of the rest of the world, there is only Olympic style shooting. There isn't some other body diluting the talent pool. Just imagine if all the NRA shooters dedicated their talents and enthusiasm toward getting an Olympic medal! There is so much more than Camp Perry! Oh well, I guess some of these NRA guys just can't get over the fact that the targets are a little harder. The center is still in the center...regardless of what the final score ends up like. Try it, you might like it!
.43290.43280
Diluting the talent pool? Well, let's figure out who filled up the tub first and then wonder who made the bubbles. Why doesn't USAShooting try to work WITH those of us who set up and run matches (NRA in my case)? Why do I need to contribute to ANOTHER organization that sets up matches I can't make it to without another week of vacation when my kids are in school. Major International matches around here are few, far between and mostly calendar challenged (at least for me). (keep reading before you say anything)
Paraphrasing what one of the "elete" posters on this forum said earlier "I should have to sacrifice even more for the sport to make the matches." Naa, I'll shoot and keep setting up matches that people can shoot with an organization with a broad appeal base. By the way, even when one of the best conventional shooters competed in a recent WC event, the powers that be did not seem to respond very well. (keep reading)
If USAShooting asks for help, then I'll try to oblige, but as stated by others (and by themselves as their goal) they are not in the business of helping keep me shooting, just finding good shooters.
And don't get the wrong, I wish them well, support their efforts and I AM a member. (Do all you US posters have memberships?) BUT holding a match shooters don't show up at will not do anything but drain my resources and whining about "diluting the pool" is kinda strange when it's so hard for me to take a dip is a little disconcerting.
I'll be happy to shoot on any target I can find as long as it's at a match I can get to and that people will show up for.
Back at you on the target comment: (The targets might be a little harder, "accent on" but we don't need no stinking sighters to get started.)
One final comment to all organizations: FACE the facts, the majority of shooters in all type of shooting are fairly average at best. However they provide the background support for all, from the newest shooter to the national or olympic champion. You can't be the best without someone else helping to hold AND raise the bar.
Cecil Rhodes
NRA and USAS
: To address another person's comment about NRA vs USA Shooting. Part of the reason for this record problem is NRA actually drains the talent and participant pool from Olympic style shooting events. In most of the rest of the world, there is only Olympic style shooting. There isn't some other body diluting the talent pool. Just imagine if all the NRA shooters dedicated their talents and enthusiasm toward getting an Olympic medal! There is so much more than Camp Perry! Oh well, I guess some of these NRA guys just can't get over the fact that the targets are a little harder. The center is still in the center...regardless of what the final score ends up like. Try it, you might like it!
.43290.43280
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BE
Re: Specifics on Phoenix Club PTO's
According to the PTO posted results, there were 6 AP shooters (including yourself) and 3 AR (2 men 1 woman). These are 9 in total, not 14.
I think, "massaging" the truth is part of the problem US shooting deals with.....
ytd-at-ytd.com.43300.43271
I think, "massaging" the truth is part of the problem US shooting deals with.....
ytd-at-ytd.com.43300.43271
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Mako
Re: Specifics on Phoenix Club PTO's
sorry ... I was thinking of Efrin Ragays previoius message where he says that USA Shooting noted that there were nine shooters ... and I assumed that meant nine air pistol shooters. Sorry ... even though I was there ... my aging mind wasn't completely there. :-)
The fact remains, I spend some effort trying to bring in new shooters ... pistol shooters since that is what I shoot ... but am always worried that we will end up taking away spots from the AR shooters ... which Ed Abalo would not appreciate.
makofoto-at-earthlink.net.43312.43300
The fact remains, I spend some effort trying to bring in new shooters ... pistol shooters since that is what I shoot ... but am always worried that we will end up taking away spots from the AR shooters ... which Ed Abalo would not appreciate.
makofoto-at-earthlink.net.43312.43300
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EfrenR
Just for the record . . . . . . . .
1. USA Shooting Rules still requires a minimum of 15 competitors for individual records (USAS 6.1 GR-26 Requirements for National Records). The 10 shooters minimum is from the the ISSF Rule, which USA Shooting adopted, for Junior World Records (USAS-ISSF 6.8.5 GTR=73 Protocol: Awards and Records). I know that USAS staff members are kind and reasonable people, but those were not the basis for "lowering" this threshold from 15 to 10.
2. In adopting the ISSF Rules as part of USAS Rules, USAS also has the right to add certain USAS modifications to ISSF Rules "to recognize unique situations regarding the conduct of shooting competitions in the United States." (USAS 1.2 GR-5) The fact that most clubs hosting PTOs usually have less than 15 shooters, isn't that a unique situation enough to justify an exemption to this ISSF requirement (for world records)? After all, we are establishing our very own USA "national" records which may or may not exceed "world" records.
3. USA Shooting is not under obligation to adopt any minimum requirements for national records. ISSF only RECOMMENDS that ISSF Rules be applied at competitions where ISSF events are in the program, even if World Records cannot be established (USAS-ISSF 6.1.2.3 GTR-3 General). However, USA Shooting had chosen to adopt ISSF Rules as part of the governing documents for all USA Shooting sanctioned competitions (USAS 1.3 GR-5 Approval of Authority) and USAS General Regulations are based upon the organizational priciples in the ISSF General Regulations (USAS 1.2 GR-5).
4. The Phoenix Club is no "basement" for junior shooters' dads - either Mr. Abalo or me. The Phoenix Club is an organization of German-Americans who opened their excellent shooting range to us. We all have to drive miles to be at this site. Mr. Abalo's LAR&RC runs the match, and there are two other match officials (USA accredited) who supervise the match. We drive our kids to these PTOs, not knowing that, on a certain match, they are going to shoot a national record. Both me and Mr. Abalo knew that our sons shoots very well. We leave the shooting to our sons, and our sons leave the driving (and financial matters) to us. That's about the extent of "helping" our kids shoot a record.
5. If, indeed, NRA is part of the national records problem by actually draining the talent and participant pool from Olympic style shooting events, will raising the national standard to international level for national records help increase participation in our sports? Has USA Shooting done anything to address this issue so that we could keep olympic style shooters from drifting to the NRA side, or lure them back to the olympic shooting sports? A USAS-NRA as a joint governing body for the olympic shooting sports in the United States is not a bad idea either.
Efren
: The reason there is a minimum number of participants rule in USA Shooting's rule book for national records is that the ISSF rule book has a similar rule for world records, and USA Shooting pretty much copied their technical rules from the ISSF. The ISSF rule actually states 15 shooters for individual records, and certain number of teams for team records.
: It appears that USA Shooting is actually trying to be kinder and more reasonable by lowering this threshold from 15 to 10. I agree that there needs to be some kind of controls to keep those less than honest people out there from "helping" their kid to a record they didn't earn. Not that this is an epidemic, but it is a problem. There are just enough people out there setting up a one or two person shooting match in their basement and Shazam!, a shooter nobody has ever heard of sets a record with a score they've never approached before, and amazingly, never approach again.
: Personally, I think records should only be set at certian named matches (nationals, regionals and such), or at least with a USA Shooting referee present (not Jim-Bob's dad). If records are restricted to these matches, the minimum number of participants restriction could be removed.
: Eric
ratherbe-at-adelphia.net.43313.43280
2. In adopting the ISSF Rules as part of USAS Rules, USAS also has the right to add certain USAS modifications to ISSF Rules "to recognize unique situations regarding the conduct of shooting competitions in the United States." (USAS 1.2 GR-5) The fact that most clubs hosting PTOs usually have less than 15 shooters, isn't that a unique situation enough to justify an exemption to this ISSF requirement (for world records)? After all, we are establishing our very own USA "national" records which may or may not exceed "world" records.
3. USA Shooting is not under obligation to adopt any minimum requirements for national records. ISSF only RECOMMENDS that ISSF Rules be applied at competitions where ISSF events are in the program, even if World Records cannot be established (USAS-ISSF 6.1.2.3 GTR-3 General). However, USA Shooting had chosen to adopt ISSF Rules as part of the governing documents for all USA Shooting sanctioned competitions (USAS 1.3 GR-5 Approval of Authority) and USAS General Regulations are based upon the organizational priciples in the ISSF General Regulations (USAS 1.2 GR-5).
4. The Phoenix Club is no "basement" for junior shooters' dads - either Mr. Abalo or me. The Phoenix Club is an organization of German-Americans who opened their excellent shooting range to us. We all have to drive miles to be at this site. Mr. Abalo's LAR&RC runs the match, and there are two other match officials (USA accredited) who supervise the match. We drive our kids to these PTOs, not knowing that, on a certain match, they are going to shoot a national record. Both me and Mr. Abalo knew that our sons shoots very well. We leave the shooting to our sons, and our sons leave the driving (and financial matters) to us. That's about the extent of "helping" our kids shoot a record.
5. If, indeed, NRA is part of the national records problem by actually draining the talent and participant pool from Olympic style shooting events, will raising the national standard to international level for national records help increase participation in our sports? Has USA Shooting done anything to address this issue so that we could keep olympic style shooters from drifting to the NRA side, or lure them back to the olympic shooting sports? A USAS-NRA as a joint governing body for the olympic shooting sports in the United States is not a bad idea either.
Efren
: The reason there is a minimum number of participants rule in USA Shooting's rule book for national records is that the ISSF rule book has a similar rule for world records, and USA Shooting pretty much copied their technical rules from the ISSF. The ISSF rule actually states 15 shooters for individual records, and certain number of teams for team records.
: It appears that USA Shooting is actually trying to be kinder and more reasonable by lowering this threshold from 15 to 10. I agree that there needs to be some kind of controls to keep those less than honest people out there from "helping" their kid to a record they didn't earn. Not that this is an epidemic, but it is a problem. There are just enough people out there setting up a one or two person shooting match in their basement and Shazam!, a shooter nobody has ever heard of sets a record with a score they've never approached before, and amazingly, never approach again.
: Personally, I think records should only be set at certian named matches (nationals, regionals and such), or at least with a USA Shooting referee present (not Jim-Bob's dad). If records are restricted to these matches, the minimum number of participants restriction could be removed.
: Eric
ratherbe-at-adelphia.net.43313.43280
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EfrenR
Mako, your mind may not be aging, after all . . . . . . .
there were other shooters who occupied some points (but didn't want to compete at the match) for training and their scores were not reported. I can't recall exactly how many shooters were unaccounted, but I remember that the match was delayed because more than the usual number of shooters showed up that night that additional sets of targets and some points were prepared in a hurry. That would have been my first competition match . . . . but it was crowded.
ratherbe-at-adelphia.net.43315.43312
ratherbe-at-adelphia.net.43315.43312
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Anon
Hogwash
Eric has the right to his opinion. But he's dead wrong on the "drain" issue. USAS has minimal jr. development, with the exception of the jr. olympics. NRA coaches do 99.99% of the work, with their coach development program.
: All,
: The reason there is a minimum number of participants rule in USA Shooting's rule book for national records is that the ISSF rule book has a similar rule for world records, and USA Shooting pretty much copied their technical rules from the ISSF. The ISSF rule actually states 15 shooters for individual records, and certain number of teams for team records.
: Last Fall, Sandra, my wife, shattered the Sport Pistol record at the fall selection match (not Bubba's basement). Alas...there were less then 15 (the rule at the time) ladies shooting that event...no record. When I called USA Shooting to check on the status of Sandra's record request, I was informed that it didn't count. When I stated that the previous record was set at a match with only 14 participants, the former record was also removed.
: It appears that USA Shooting is actually trying to be kinder and more reasonable by lowering this threshold from 15 to 10. I agree that there needs to be some kind of controls to keep those less than honest people out there from "helping" their kid to a record they didn't earn. Not that this is an epidemic, but it is a problem. There are just enough people out there setting up a one or two person shooting match in their basement and Shazam!, a shooter nobody has ever heard of sets a record with a score they've never approached before, and amazingly, never approach again.
: Personally, I think records should only be set at certian named matches (nationals, regionals and such), or at least with a USA Shooting referee present (not Jim-Bob's dad). If records are restricted to these matches, the minimum number of participants restriction could be removed.
: To address another person's comment about NRA vs USA Shooting. Part of the reason for this record problem is NRA actually drains the talent and participant pool from Olympic style shooting events. In most of the rest of the world, there is only Olympic style shooting. There isn't some other body diluting the talent pool. Just imagine if all the NRA shooters dedicated their talents and enthusiasm toward getting an Olympic medal! There is so much more than Camp Perry! Oh well, I guess some of these NRA guys just can't get over the fact that the targets are a little harder. The center is still in the center...regardless of what the final score ends up like. Try it, you might like it!
: If you want to label me as an International Snob, then go ahead. I've been quite successful in both types of shooting, and I prefer international. No amount of NRA award points can beat standing on the top of the awards stand and hearing your national anthem played FOR YOU!
: Eric
.43316.43280
: All,
: The reason there is a minimum number of participants rule in USA Shooting's rule book for national records is that the ISSF rule book has a similar rule for world records, and USA Shooting pretty much copied their technical rules from the ISSF. The ISSF rule actually states 15 shooters for individual records, and certain number of teams for team records.
: Last Fall, Sandra, my wife, shattered the Sport Pistol record at the fall selection match (not Bubba's basement). Alas...there were less then 15 (the rule at the time) ladies shooting that event...no record. When I called USA Shooting to check on the status of Sandra's record request, I was informed that it didn't count. When I stated that the previous record was set at a match with only 14 participants, the former record was also removed.
: It appears that USA Shooting is actually trying to be kinder and more reasonable by lowering this threshold from 15 to 10. I agree that there needs to be some kind of controls to keep those less than honest people out there from "helping" their kid to a record they didn't earn. Not that this is an epidemic, but it is a problem. There are just enough people out there setting up a one or two person shooting match in their basement and Shazam!, a shooter nobody has ever heard of sets a record with a score they've never approached before, and amazingly, never approach again.
: Personally, I think records should only be set at certian named matches (nationals, regionals and such), or at least with a USA Shooting referee present (not Jim-Bob's dad). If records are restricted to these matches, the minimum number of participants restriction could be removed.
: To address another person's comment about NRA vs USA Shooting. Part of the reason for this record problem is NRA actually drains the talent and participant pool from Olympic style shooting events. In most of the rest of the world, there is only Olympic style shooting. There isn't some other body diluting the talent pool. Just imagine if all the NRA shooters dedicated their talents and enthusiasm toward getting an Olympic medal! There is so much more than Camp Perry! Oh well, I guess some of these NRA guys just can't get over the fact that the targets are a little harder. The center is still in the center...regardless of what the final score ends up like. Try it, you might like it!
: If you want to label me as an International Snob, then go ahead. I've been quite successful in both types of shooting, and I prefer international. No amount of NRA award points can beat standing on the top of the awards stand and hearing your national anthem played FOR YOU!
: Eric
.43316.43280
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anon 2
Re: Hogwash back at you
No, eric is right on target with the drain issue, not that is necessarily bad thing, I would rather have the firearms freedoms that we have in the USA than to have a strong Olympic shooting program. And you obviously are totally unaware of what USAS and CMP do for junior development, something the NRA has serioulsy tried to catch up to... But the NRA has far more money to throw at the kiddie programs, so their growth seems faster
: Eric has the right to his opinion. But he's dead wrong on the "drain" issue. USAS has minimal jr. development, with the exception of the jr. olympics. NRA coaches do 99.99% of the work, with their coach development program.
:
: : All,
: : The reason there is a minimum number of participants rule in USA Shooting's rule book for national records is that the ISSF rule book has a similar rule for world records, and USA Shooting pretty much copied their technical rules from the ISSF. The ISSF rule actually states 15 shooters for individual records, and certain number of teams for team records.
: : Last Fall, Sandra, my wife, shattered the Sport Pistol record at the fall selection match (not Bubba's basement). Alas...there were less then 15 (the rule at the time) ladies shooting that event...no record. When I called USA Shooting to check on the status of Sandra's record request, I was informed that it didn't count. When I stated that the previous record was set at a match with only 14 participants, the former record was also removed.
: : It appears that USA Shooting is actually trying to be kinder and more reasonable by lowering this threshold from 15 to 10. I agree that there needs to be some kind of controls to keep those less than honest people out there from "helping" their kid to a record they didn't earn. Not that this is an epidemic, but it is a problem. There are just enough people out there setting up a one or two person shooting match in their basement and Shazam!, a shooter nobody has ever heard of sets a record with a score they've never approached before, and amazingly, never approach again.
: : Personally, I think records should only be set at certian named matches (nationals, regionals and such), or at least with a USA Shooting referee present (not Jim-Bob's dad). If records are restricted to these matches, the minimum number of participants restriction could be removed.
: : To address another person's comment about NRA vs USA Shooting. Part of the reason for this record problem is NRA actually drains the talent and participant pool from Olympic style shooting events. In most of the rest of the world, there is only Olympic style shooting. There isn't some other body diluting the talent pool. Just imagine if all the NRA shooters dedicated their talents and enthusiasm toward getting an Olympic medal! There is so much more than Camp Perry! Oh well, I guess some of these NRA guys just can't get over the fact that the targets are a little harder. The center is still in the center...regardless of what the final score ends up like. Try it, you might like it!
: : If you want to label me as an International Snob, then go ahead. I've been quite successful in both types of shooting, and I prefer international. No amount of NRA award points can beat standing on the top of the awards stand and hearing your national anthem played FOR YOU!
: : Eric
.43323.43316
: Eric has the right to his opinion. But he's dead wrong on the "drain" issue. USAS has minimal jr. development, with the exception of the jr. olympics. NRA coaches do 99.99% of the work, with their coach development program.
:
: : All,
: : The reason there is a minimum number of participants rule in USA Shooting's rule book for national records is that the ISSF rule book has a similar rule for world records, and USA Shooting pretty much copied their technical rules from the ISSF. The ISSF rule actually states 15 shooters for individual records, and certain number of teams for team records.
: : Last Fall, Sandra, my wife, shattered the Sport Pistol record at the fall selection match (not Bubba's basement). Alas...there were less then 15 (the rule at the time) ladies shooting that event...no record. When I called USA Shooting to check on the status of Sandra's record request, I was informed that it didn't count. When I stated that the previous record was set at a match with only 14 participants, the former record was also removed.
: : It appears that USA Shooting is actually trying to be kinder and more reasonable by lowering this threshold from 15 to 10. I agree that there needs to be some kind of controls to keep those less than honest people out there from "helping" their kid to a record they didn't earn. Not that this is an epidemic, but it is a problem. There are just enough people out there setting up a one or two person shooting match in their basement and Shazam!, a shooter nobody has ever heard of sets a record with a score they've never approached before, and amazingly, never approach again.
: : Personally, I think records should only be set at certian named matches (nationals, regionals and such), or at least with a USA Shooting referee present (not Jim-Bob's dad). If records are restricted to these matches, the minimum number of participants restriction could be removed.
: : To address another person's comment about NRA vs USA Shooting. Part of the reason for this record problem is NRA actually drains the talent and participant pool from Olympic style shooting events. In most of the rest of the world, there is only Olympic style shooting. There isn't some other body diluting the talent pool. Just imagine if all the NRA shooters dedicated their talents and enthusiasm toward getting an Olympic medal! There is so much more than Camp Perry! Oh well, I guess some of these NRA guys just can't get over the fact that the targets are a little harder. The center is still in the center...regardless of what the final score ends up like. Try it, you might like it!
: : If you want to label me as an International Snob, then go ahead. I've been quite successful in both types of shooting, and I prefer international. No amount of NRA award points can beat standing on the top of the awards stand and hearing your national anthem played FOR YOU!
: : Eric
.43323.43316