That sounds like a newsheadline. But it's true. I am sharing this USAS decision to TT readers because it was in this forum that my son's (Sean Ragay) record breaking shots came out first. Some of you were so kind by sending congratulatory messages to my son and you deserve to know what came out of the certification process. We would have preferred to keep this matter private. We received today an email from USAS Mary Smith that because there were not enough shooters at the PTO, Sean's record breaking shots cannot be certified by USAS. USAS Rules required at least 10 shooters; and Ms. Smith noted that there were only "7 males and 2 females" competitors during the match. Apparently, we were short of 1 shooter. There used to be no requirement for minimum number of shooters for a new record to be set; but the rule was amended in April 2002. I am surprised that the host club was not aware of this new requirement when it certified the form it sent to USAS.
I broke this decision to Sean today who was a bit surprised but took the news with humility. The new USAS Rules may have broken his heart, but not his spirit to compete and excel in this olympic shooting sports. We graciously accepted this USAS decision. Thank you all for your kind words.
Herein below are my and USAS' emails.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
I did received the national record application from Eddie Abalo. The
problem is that a minimum of 10 competitors is required in an event in order for a national record to be set. This competition only had 7 men and 2 women. There were not enough competitors to allow a national record to be set. I'm sorry for the circumstances. I look forward to seeing another national record application for Sean where he has been able to shoot in a match with enough competitors to break the record.
Mary S. Smith
Competitions Manager
USA Shooting
-----Original Message-----
From: Efren Ragay [mailto:ratherbe@adelphia.net]
Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2003 9:06 AM
To: Competitions@usashooting.org; Robert.Mitchell@usashooting.org
Cc: abalo; laura Tyler
Subject: J2 National Record Status
During the U.S. International AP & AR PTO hosted by the Los Angeles
Rifle & Revolver Club (LARRC) in June 12, 2003 at the Phoenix Club,
Anaheim, California, my son, Sean Ragay, shot what appeared to be a new
J2 AP national record. The targets were rechecked and verified a couple of times immediately after the match and an application form for a new national record completed. Mr. Eddie Abalo of the LARRC sent the form to USAS after he verified the targets. As of last week, Mr. Abalo had not received any communication regarding your decision on this matter.
I noticed that your website was recently updated with new records set at the 2003 USASNC. I am not familiar with USAS' certification process of a new record. Although Sean has never asked me about the status of his J2 record, I hope that you can inform us if his record setting shots deserves official recognition from USAS.
Thank you.
Efren Ragay
cc: Laura Tyler
Sean's OTC-USAS Pistol Camp Coach
ratherbe-at-adelphia.net.43148.0
Junior Shooter Broke J2 National Record; USAS Rules Broke J
Moderators: rexifelis, pilkguns
-
Gaines Blackwell
Re: Junior Shooter Broke J2 National Record; USAS Rules Bro
Sean not only seems ro be an excellent marksmans but very well mannered and mature young man as well. His high degree of self disipline will serve him well in life as a competitor and contributing member of society. Congratulations, Sean , on your accomplishments and best of luck in setting the record again...You seem to have a fune dad as well!......gtb
: That sounds like a newsheadline. But it's true. I am sharing this USAS decision to TT readers because it was in this forum that my son's (Sean Ragay) record breaking shots came out first. Some of you were so kind by sending congratulatory messages to my son and you deserve to know what came out of the certification process. We would have preferred to keep this matter private. We received today an email from USAS Mary Smith that because there were not enough shooters at the PTO, Sean's record breaking shots cannot be certified by USAS. USAS Rules required at least 10 shooters; and Ms. Smith noted that there were only "7 males and 2 females" competitors during the match. Apparently, we were short of 1 shooter. There used to be no requirement for minimum number of shooters for a new record to be set; but the rule was amended in April 2002. I am surprised that the host club was not aware of this new requirement when it certified the form it sent to USAS.
: I broke this decision to Sean today who was a bit surprised but took the news with humility. The new USAS Rules may have broken his heart, but not his spirit to compete and excel in this olympic shooting sports. We graciously accepted this USAS decision. Thank you all for your kind words.
: Herein below are my and USAS' emails.
: -------------------------------------------------------------------------
: I did received the national record application from Eddie Abalo. The
: problem is that a minimum of 10 competitors is required in an event in order for a national record to be set. This competition only had 7 men and 2 women. There were not enough competitors to allow a national record to be set. I'm sorry for the circumstances. I look forward to seeing another national record application for Sean where he has been able to shoot in a match with enough competitors to break the record.
: Mary S. Smith
: Competitions Manager
: USA Shooting
: -----Original Message-----
: From: Efren Ragay [mailto:ratherbe@adelphia.net]
: Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2003 9:06 AM
: To: Competitions@usashooting.org; Robert.Mitchell@usashooting.org
: Cc: abalo; laura Tyler
: Subject: J2 National Record Status
:
: During the U.S. International AP & AR PTO hosted by the Los Angeles
: Rifle & Revolver Club (LARRC) in June 12, 2003 at the Phoenix Club,
: Anaheim, California, my son, Sean Ragay, shot what appeared to be a new
: J2 AP national record. The targets were rechecked and verified a couple of times immediately after the match and an application form for a new national record completed. Mr. Eddie Abalo of the LARRC sent the form to USAS after he verified the targets. As of last week, Mr. Abalo had not received any communication regarding your decision on this matter.
: I noticed that your website was recently updated with new records set at the 2003 USASNC. I am not familiar with USAS' certification process of a new record. Although Sean has never asked me about the status of his J2 record, I hope that you can inform us if his record setting shots deserves official recognition from USAS.
: Thank you.
: Efren Ragay
: cc: Laura Tyler
: Sean's OTC-USAS Pistol Camp Coach
gtblackwell-at-charter.net.43162.43148
: That sounds like a newsheadline. But it's true. I am sharing this USAS decision to TT readers because it was in this forum that my son's (Sean Ragay) record breaking shots came out first. Some of you were so kind by sending congratulatory messages to my son and you deserve to know what came out of the certification process. We would have preferred to keep this matter private. We received today an email from USAS Mary Smith that because there were not enough shooters at the PTO, Sean's record breaking shots cannot be certified by USAS. USAS Rules required at least 10 shooters; and Ms. Smith noted that there were only "7 males and 2 females" competitors during the match. Apparently, we were short of 1 shooter. There used to be no requirement for minimum number of shooters for a new record to be set; but the rule was amended in April 2002. I am surprised that the host club was not aware of this new requirement when it certified the form it sent to USAS.
: I broke this decision to Sean today who was a bit surprised but took the news with humility. The new USAS Rules may have broken his heart, but not his spirit to compete and excel in this olympic shooting sports. We graciously accepted this USAS decision. Thank you all for your kind words.
: Herein below are my and USAS' emails.
: -------------------------------------------------------------------------
: I did received the national record application from Eddie Abalo. The
: problem is that a minimum of 10 competitors is required in an event in order for a national record to be set. This competition only had 7 men and 2 women. There were not enough competitors to allow a national record to be set. I'm sorry for the circumstances. I look forward to seeing another national record application for Sean where he has been able to shoot in a match with enough competitors to break the record.
: Mary S. Smith
: Competitions Manager
: USA Shooting
: -----Original Message-----
: From: Efren Ragay [mailto:ratherbe@adelphia.net]
: Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2003 9:06 AM
: To: Competitions@usashooting.org; Robert.Mitchell@usashooting.org
: Cc: abalo; laura Tyler
: Subject: J2 National Record Status
:
: During the U.S. International AP & AR PTO hosted by the Los Angeles
: Rifle & Revolver Club (LARRC) in June 12, 2003 at the Phoenix Club,
: Anaheim, California, my son, Sean Ragay, shot what appeared to be a new
: J2 AP national record. The targets were rechecked and verified a couple of times immediately after the match and an application form for a new national record completed. Mr. Eddie Abalo of the LARRC sent the form to USAS after he verified the targets. As of last week, Mr. Abalo had not received any communication regarding your decision on this matter.
: I noticed that your website was recently updated with new records set at the 2003 USASNC. I am not familiar with USAS' certification process of a new record. Although Sean has never asked me about the status of his J2 record, I hope that you can inform us if his record setting shots deserves official recognition from USAS.
: Thank you.
: Efren Ragay
: cc: Laura Tyler
: Sean's OTC-USAS Pistol Camp Coach
gtblackwell-at-charter.net.43162.43148
-
Scott Engen
USAS' Policy May be What's Really Broken
All,
As an athlete, and at the risk of offending some of the 'powers that be' (...as if that's ever stopped me from speaking my mind when I think a basic moral issue is involved...)
An athlete of any age or ability works hard to excel in their event(s) through long hours of training. They pay their annual USAS dues, enter a USAS sanctioned match in good faith, pay their match entry fees to the local club and their sanctioning fees to USAS. They have a good day and push back an age group national record by a point or two.
Then USAS says, 'Oh, so sorry, but even though you just shot better than anyone else in your age group has ever shot in that event, anywhere in this vast country of 280 million people, and even though we at USAS gladly take your money in the form of annual membership dues, sanctioning fees and match fees, and even thought you as an athlete followed all the USAS rules, and shot in our USAS sanctioned event, and had that match result certified and submitted by the USAS affiliated match organizers, ...uhhhh... because of circumstances totally beyond the control of either you as the athlete and/or the event organizers, a certain randomly determined minimum number of athletes were not on the firing line, and so we simply refuse to acknowledge your outstanding performance. Have a nice day, and keep sending us your money.
In most club's PTO's locally, and even at many national level events, there aren't 10 athletes on the line in any number of the events. There often aren't 10 athletes overall in both men's and women's RT, or in most of the 25m pistol events at USASNC in some years.
Why 10 athletes minimum? Why not 1 or 5 or 50 or 500? If you showed up and played by all the rules and pushed back a national record, why does USAS choose to penalize you, the shooter who showed up and performed for the laziness and inactivity on the part of those shooters who just stayed home?
Here's another case in point. Where's the 50ft RFP records at USAS? They have approved 50 ft reduced range targets for every pistol and rifle event, and they have adopted full rules and requirements for the reduced range events. People pay their USAS sanctioning fees to shoot 50ft events all over the country. You can shoot a 'cut score' for invitation to USASNC at 50ft.
Many dedicated USAS clubs only have 50ft to work with. In my home state thare are NO USAS sanctioned matches, in either rifle or pistol beyond 50ft anywhere in the state. I'd have to drive or fly 600 to 1000 miles each way just to shoot a full distance USAS sanctioned rifle or pistol match.(Heck, the NRA even has an annual national indoor championship at 50ft for Free and Standard pistol, along with conventional pistol and smallbore rifle.) So why no national USAS records at 50 ft for RFP? If USAS won't recognize a 50ft national record, why should we as athletes pay them a sanctioning fee to shoot in that event?
Excellence in performance is excellence, pure and simple, and it should be recognized as such. If USAS takes your money to enter a sanctioned event, and it's run by the current USAS rules, you should be able to set a national record there, regardless of the turnout. If you can't set a national record in that match, USAS has no business taking your money to sanction it.
IMHO, the current policy is another example of USAS being out of touch with the needs and desires of the shooting sports rank and file. The competitive shooting world will not come to an crashing end, and the sport will not suffer from diminished status if USAS opened up their national record process to reflect the reality of age-group athlete performance and the small fields of competitors rather than imposing their overly-strict guidelines from the ivory towers of USOTC.
In addition, I also think it is an important part of both the athlete's and match organizer's moral obligation to speak out on the subject to both USAS and to their fellow athletes when their exceptional performances are not being recognized by the NGB, and their good faith efforts at participation are being abused.
USAS is made up of their entire membership, it's not just some small cadre of elite shooters in Colorado. You, as USAS members pay their staff's salary, and fund their operations. USAS needs to be run for the benefit of their entire membership.
Your silence implies consent...
Scott
: Sean not only seems ro be an excellent marksmans but very well mannered and mature young man as well. His high degree of self disipline will serve him well in life as a competitor and contributing member of society. Congratulations, Sean , on your accomplishments and best of luck in setting the record again...You seem to have a fune dad as well!......gtb
: : That sounds like a newsheadline. But it's true. I am sharing this USAS decision to TT readers because it was in this forum that my son's (Sean Ragay) record breaking shots came out first. Some of you were so kind by sending congratulatory messages to my son and you deserve to know what came out of the certification process. We would have preferred to keep this matter private. We received today an email from USAS Mary Smith that because there were not enough shooters at the PTO, Sean's record breaking shots cannot be certified by USAS. USAS Rules required at least 10 shooters; and Ms. Smith noted that there were only "7 males and 2 females" competitors during the match. Apparently, we were short of 1 shooter. There used to be no requirement for minimum number of shooters for a new record to be set; but the rule was amended in April 2002. I am surprised that the host club was not aware of this new requirement when it certified the form it sent to USAS.
: : I broke this decision to Sean today who was a bit surprised but took the news with humility. The new USAS Rules may have broken his heart, but not his spirit to compete and excel in this olympic shooting sports. We graciously accepted this USAS decision. Thank you all for your kind words.
: : Herein below are my and USAS' emails.
: : -------------------------------------------------------------------------
: : I did received the national record application from Eddie Abalo. The
: : problem is that a minimum of 10 competitors is required in an event in order for a national record to be set. This competition only had 7 men and 2 women. There were not enough competitors to allow a national record to be set. I'm sorry for the circumstances. I look forward to seeing another national record application for Sean where he has been able to shoot in a match with enough competitors to break the record.
: : Mary S. Smith
: : Competitions Manager
: : USA Shooting
: : -----Original Message-----
: : From: Efren Ragay [mailto:ratherbe@adelphia.net]
: : Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2003 9:06 AM
: : To: Competitions@usashooting.org; Robert.Mitchell@usashooting.org
: : Cc: abalo; laura Tyler
: : Subject: J2 National Record Status
: :
: : During the U.S. International AP & AR PTO hosted by the Los Angeles
: : Rifle & Revolver Club (LARRC) in June 12, 2003 at the Phoenix Club,
: : Anaheim, California, my son, Sean Ragay, shot what appeared to be a new
: : J2 AP national record. The targets were rechecked and verified a couple of times immediately after the match and an application form for a new national record completed. Mr. Eddie Abalo of the LARRC sent the form to USAS after he verified the targets. As of last week, Mr. Abalo had not received any communication regarding your decision on this matter.
: : I noticed that your website was recently updated with new records set at the 2003 USASNC. I am not familiar with USAS' certification process of a new record. Although Sean has never asked me about the status of his J2 record, I hope that you can inform us if his record setting shots deserves official recognition from USAS.
: : Thank you.
: : Efren Ragay
: : cc: Laura Tyler
: : Sean's OTC-USAS Pistol Camp Coach
submoa-at-aol.com.43164.43162
As an athlete, and at the risk of offending some of the 'powers that be' (...as if that's ever stopped me from speaking my mind when I think a basic moral issue is involved...)
An athlete of any age or ability works hard to excel in their event(s) through long hours of training. They pay their annual USAS dues, enter a USAS sanctioned match in good faith, pay their match entry fees to the local club and their sanctioning fees to USAS. They have a good day and push back an age group national record by a point or two.
Then USAS says, 'Oh, so sorry, but even though you just shot better than anyone else in your age group has ever shot in that event, anywhere in this vast country of 280 million people, and even though we at USAS gladly take your money in the form of annual membership dues, sanctioning fees and match fees, and even thought you as an athlete followed all the USAS rules, and shot in our USAS sanctioned event, and had that match result certified and submitted by the USAS affiliated match organizers, ...uhhhh... because of circumstances totally beyond the control of either you as the athlete and/or the event organizers, a certain randomly determined minimum number of athletes were not on the firing line, and so we simply refuse to acknowledge your outstanding performance. Have a nice day, and keep sending us your money.
In most club's PTO's locally, and even at many national level events, there aren't 10 athletes on the line in any number of the events. There often aren't 10 athletes overall in both men's and women's RT, or in most of the 25m pistol events at USASNC in some years.
Why 10 athletes minimum? Why not 1 or 5 or 50 or 500? If you showed up and played by all the rules and pushed back a national record, why does USAS choose to penalize you, the shooter who showed up and performed for the laziness and inactivity on the part of those shooters who just stayed home?
Here's another case in point. Where's the 50ft RFP records at USAS? They have approved 50 ft reduced range targets for every pistol and rifle event, and they have adopted full rules and requirements for the reduced range events. People pay their USAS sanctioning fees to shoot 50ft events all over the country. You can shoot a 'cut score' for invitation to USASNC at 50ft.
Many dedicated USAS clubs only have 50ft to work with. In my home state thare are NO USAS sanctioned matches, in either rifle or pistol beyond 50ft anywhere in the state. I'd have to drive or fly 600 to 1000 miles each way just to shoot a full distance USAS sanctioned rifle or pistol match.(Heck, the NRA even has an annual national indoor championship at 50ft for Free and Standard pistol, along with conventional pistol and smallbore rifle.) So why no national USAS records at 50 ft for RFP? If USAS won't recognize a 50ft national record, why should we as athletes pay them a sanctioning fee to shoot in that event?
Excellence in performance is excellence, pure and simple, and it should be recognized as such. If USAS takes your money to enter a sanctioned event, and it's run by the current USAS rules, you should be able to set a national record there, regardless of the turnout. If you can't set a national record in that match, USAS has no business taking your money to sanction it.
IMHO, the current policy is another example of USAS being out of touch with the needs and desires of the shooting sports rank and file. The competitive shooting world will not come to an crashing end, and the sport will not suffer from diminished status if USAS opened up their national record process to reflect the reality of age-group athlete performance and the small fields of competitors rather than imposing their overly-strict guidelines from the ivory towers of USOTC.
In addition, I also think it is an important part of both the athlete's and match organizer's moral obligation to speak out on the subject to both USAS and to their fellow athletes when their exceptional performances are not being recognized by the NGB, and their good faith efforts at participation are being abused.
USAS is made up of their entire membership, it's not just some small cadre of elite shooters in Colorado. You, as USAS members pay their staff's salary, and fund their operations. USAS needs to be run for the benefit of their entire membership.
Your silence implies consent...
Scott
: Sean not only seems ro be an excellent marksmans but very well mannered and mature young man as well. His high degree of self disipline will serve him well in life as a competitor and contributing member of society. Congratulations, Sean , on your accomplishments and best of luck in setting the record again...You seem to have a fune dad as well!......gtb
: : That sounds like a newsheadline. But it's true. I am sharing this USAS decision to TT readers because it was in this forum that my son's (Sean Ragay) record breaking shots came out first. Some of you were so kind by sending congratulatory messages to my son and you deserve to know what came out of the certification process. We would have preferred to keep this matter private. We received today an email from USAS Mary Smith that because there were not enough shooters at the PTO, Sean's record breaking shots cannot be certified by USAS. USAS Rules required at least 10 shooters; and Ms. Smith noted that there were only "7 males and 2 females" competitors during the match. Apparently, we were short of 1 shooter. There used to be no requirement for minimum number of shooters for a new record to be set; but the rule was amended in April 2002. I am surprised that the host club was not aware of this new requirement when it certified the form it sent to USAS.
: : I broke this decision to Sean today who was a bit surprised but took the news with humility. The new USAS Rules may have broken his heart, but not his spirit to compete and excel in this olympic shooting sports. We graciously accepted this USAS decision. Thank you all for your kind words.
: : Herein below are my and USAS' emails.
: : -------------------------------------------------------------------------
: : I did received the national record application from Eddie Abalo. The
: : problem is that a minimum of 10 competitors is required in an event in order for a national record to be set. This competition only had 7 men and 2 women. There were not enough competitors to allow a national record to be set. I'm sorry for the circumstances. I look forward to seeing another national record application for Sean where he has been able to shoot in a match with enough competitors to break the record.
: : Mary S. Smith
: : Competitions Manager
: : USA Shooting
: : -----Original Message-----
: : From: Efren Ragay [mailto:ratherbe@adelphia.net]
: : Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2003 9:06 AM
: : To: Competitions@usashooting.org; Robert.Mitchell@usashooting.org
: : Cc: abalo; laura Tyler
: : Subject: J2 National Record Status
: :
: : During the U.S. International AP & AR PTO hosted by the Los Angeles
: : Rifle & Revolver Club (LARRC) in June 12, 2003 at the Phoenix Club,
: : Anaheim, California, my son, Sean Ragay, shot what appeared to be a new
: : J2 AP national record. The targets were rechecked and verified a couple of times immediately after the match and an application form for a new national record completed. Mr. Eddie Abalo of the LARRC sent the form to USAS after he verified the targets. As of last week, Mr. Abalo had not received any communication regarding your decision on this matter.
: : I noticed that your website was recently updated with new records set at the 2003 USASNC. I am not familiar with USAS' certification process of a new record. Although Sean has never asked me about the status of his J2 record, I hope that you can inform us if his record setting shots deserves official recognition from USAS.
: : Thank you.
: : Efren Ragay
: : cc: Laura Tyler
: : Sean's OTC-USAS Pistol Camp Coach
submoa-at-aol.com.43164.43162
-
Greg Derr
Re: USAS' Policy May be What's Really Broken
Very well said Scott- Greg Derr
.43166.43164
.43166.43164
-
W.B.
Re: USAS' Policy May be What's Really Broken
As a member of USA Shooting we have responsibility to learn rules. Buy rule book, read it and learn. If you have problem, raise the problem with USA Shooting then.
Don't complaint, that you don't like something after the fact, because you were to lazy to learn rules.
Sean Ragay is very good shooter and will have chances to brake record in accordance with rules and than the record is going to be that much more valuable.
Let this be a lesson to all of us- read and learn rules.
.43169.43164
Don't complaint, that you don't like something after the fact, because you were to lazy to learn rules.
Sean Ragay is very good shooter and will have chances to brake record in accordance with rules and than the record is going to be that much more valuable.
Let this be a lesson to all of us- read and learn rules.
.43169.43164
-
Mark Dennehy
Re: USAS' Policy May be What's Really Broken
: As a member of USA Shooting we have responsibility to learn rules. Buy rule book, read it and learn. If you have problem, raise the problem with USA Shooting then.
: Don't complaint, that you don't like something after the fact, because you were to lazy to learn rules.
: Sean Ragay is very good shooter and will have chances to brake record in accordance with rules and than the record is going to be that much more valuable.
: Let this be a lesson to all of us- read and learn rules.
Indeed. And let this be a lesson to all of those of you who organise shoots - by enforcing this decision, USAS is promoting the practise of showing up to a shoot without announcing your entry, checking to see if the minimum attendance level has been reached and leaving if it hasn't.
This practise is to be added to that of abandoning a match half-way through if you can see that your standard of shooting will lead to a poor score that could endanger your average and thus your funding (as seen rather too often already on this side of the pond), and various other practises that have nothing to do with shooting well and everything to do with looking like you're shooting well.
Pah, I say.
mark.dennehy-at-cs.tcd.ie.43170.43169
: Don't complaint, that you don't like something after the fact, because you were to lazy to learn rules.
: Sean Ragay is very good shooter and will have chances to brake record in accordance with rules and than the record is going to be that much more valuable.
: Let this be a lesson to all of us- read and learn rules.
Indeed. And let this be a lesson to all of those of you who organise shoots - by enforcing this decision, USAS is promoting the practise of showing up to a shoot without announcing your entry, checking to see if the minimum attendance level has been reached and leaving if it hasn't.
This practise is to be added to that of abandoning a match half-way through if you can see that your standard of shooting will lead to a poor score that could endanger your average and thus your funding (as seen rather too often already on this side of the pond), and various other practises that have nothing to do with shooting well and everything to do with looking like you're shooting well.
Pah, I say.
mark.dennehy-at-cs.tcd.ie.43170.43169
-
Rodm
Re: USAS' Policy May be What's Really Broken
I think you missed the point. The point is what is the difference between a match with 9 competitors and one with 10. What difference does it make is there are only 5 competitors if one of the 5 has the ability to set a new record and all the requirements to have the new record accepted have been met. The record score has been shot. It should be acnowledged. I think that the least that USAS could do would be to anounce that the score which would have been a new record except in the news letter. It would also be nice if they would justify the new rule. I do not see any validation in it.
Again a stupid rule is a stupid rule.
Rodm
: As a member of USA Shooting we have responsibility to learn rules. Buy rule book, read it and learn. If you have problem, raise the problem with USA Shooting then.
: Don't complaint, that you don't like something after the fact, because you were to lazy to learn rules.
: Sean Ragay is very good shooter and will have chances to brake record in accordance with rules and than the record is going to be that much more valuable.
: Let this be a lesson to all of us- read and learn rules.
ramadsen-at-iname.com.43181.43169
Again a stupid rule is a stupid rule.
Rodm
: As a member of USA Shooting we have responsibility to learn rules. Buy rule book, read it and learn. If you have problem, raise the problem with USA Shooting then.
: Don't complaint, that you don't like something after the fact, because you were to lazy to learn rules.
: Sean Ragay is very good shooter and will have chances to brake record in accordance with rules and than the record is going to be that much more valuable.
: Let this be a lesson to all of us- read and learn rules.
ramadsen-at-iname.com.43181.43169
-
W.B.
Re: USAS' Policy May be What's Really Broken
I think, that you missed the point, which is if you know rules and think it is stupid, do something about it by complaining to USA Shooting and try to get explanation for it. Maybe you will get good explanation for it or you will be one of voices that will change that rule.
Do you expect USA Shooting to bend the rule and open can of warms for future rulings?
.43183.43181
Do you expect USA Shooting to bend the rule and open can of warms for future rulings?
.43183.43181
-
Mark Dennehy
Re: USAS' Policy May be What's Really Broken
: I think, that you missed the point, which is if you know rules and think it is stupid, do something about it by complaining to USA Shooting and try to get explanation for it. Maybe you will get good explanation for it or you will be one of voices that will change that rule.
: Do you expect USA Shooting to bend the rule and open can of warms for future rulings?
Better to expect that the USAS will not make the rules based on anything but the furtherance of target shooting. As opposed to this rule which does not promote target shooting. It's only possible purpose would be if you could not trust shooters and judges and organisers and witnesses to report true scores, and frankly I've only ever heard of one instance of that occouring, ever, worldwide. Now maybe I don't listen to gossip enough, but frankly, I've not seen any reason sufficent to introduce such a rule, nor evidence to support it's remaining on the books.
mark.dennehy-at-cs.tcd.ie.43184.43183
: Do you expect USA Shooting to bend the rule and open can of warms for future rulings?
Better to expect that the USAS will not make the rules based on anything but the furtherance of target shooting. As opposed to this rule which does not promote target shooting. It's only possible purpose would be if you could not trust shooters and judges and organisers and witnesses to report true scores, and frankly I've only ever heard of one instance of that occouring, ever, worldwide. Now maybe I don't listen to gossip enough, but frankly, I've not seen any reason sufficent to introduce such a rule, nor evidence to support it's remaining on the books.
mark.dennehy-at-cs.tcd.ie.43184.43183
-
Slo cat
How does one go about changing a USAS rule?
: All,
: As an athlete, and at the risk of offending some of the 'powers that be' (...as if that's ever stopped me from speaking my mind when I think a basic moral issue is involved...)
: An athlete of any age or ability works hard to excel in their event(s) through long hours of training. They pay their annual USAS dues, enter a USAS sanctioned match in good faith, pay their match entry fees to the local club and their sanctioning fees to USAS. They have a good day and push back an age group national record by a point or two.
: Then USAS says, 'Oh, so sorry, but even though you just shot better than anyone else in your age group has ever shot in that event, anywhere in this vast country of 280 million people, and even though we at USAS gladly take your money in the form of annual membership dues, sanctioning fees and match fees, and even thought you as an athlete followed all the USAS rules, and shot in our USAS sanctioned event, and had that match result certified and submitted by the USAS affiliated match organizers, ...uhhhh... because of circumstances totally beyond the control of either you as the athlete and/or the event organizers, a certain randomly determined minimum number of athletes were not on the firing line, and so we simply refuse to acknowledge your outstanding performance. Have a nice day, and keep sending us your money.
: In most club's PTO's locally, and even at many national level events, there aren't 10 athletes on the line in any number of the events. There often aren't 10 athletes overall in both men's and women's RT, or in most of the 25m pistol events at USASNC in some years.
: Why 10 athletes minimum? Why not 1 or 5 or 50 or 500? If you showed up and played by all the rules and pushed back a national record, why does USAS choose to penalize you, the shooter who showed up and performed for the laziness and inactivity on the part of those shooters who just stayed home?
: Here's another case in point. Where's the 50ft RFP records at USAS? They have approved 50 ft reduced range targets for every pistol and rifle event, and they have adopted full rules and requirements for the reduced range events. People pay their USAS sanctioning fees to shoot 50ft events all over the country. You can shoot a 'cut score' for invitation to USASNC at 50ft.
: Many dedicated USAS clubs only have 50ft to work with. In my home state thare are NO USAS sanctioned matches, in either rifle or pistol beyond 50ft anywhere in the state. I'd have to drive or fly 600 to 1000 miles each way just to shoot a full distance USAS sanctioned rifle or pistol match.(Heck, the NRA even has an annual national indoor championship at 50ft for Free and Standard pistol, along with conventional pistol and smallbore rifle.) So why no national USAS records at 50 ft for RFP? If USAS won't recognize a 50ft national record, why should we as athletes pay them a sanctioning fee to shoot in that event?
: Excellence in performance is excellence, pure and simple, and it should be recognized as such. If USAS takes your money to enter a sanctioned event, and it's run by the current USAS rules, you should be able to set a national record there, regardless of the turnout. If you can't set a national record in that match, USAS has no business taking your money to sanction it.
: IMHO, the current policy is another example of USAS being out of touch with the needs and desires of the shooting sports rank and file. The competitive shooting world will not come to an crashing end, and the sport will not suffer from diminished status if USAS opened up their national record process to reflect the reality of age-group athlete performance and the small fields of competitors rather than imposing their overly-strict guidelines from the ivory towers of USOTC.
: In addition, I also think it is an important part of both the athlete's and match organizer's moral obligation to speak out on the subject to both USAS and to their fellow athletes when their exceptional performances are not being recognized by the NGB, and their good faith efforts at participation are being abused.
: USAS is made up of their entire membership, it's not just some small cadre of elite shooters in Colorado. You, as USAS members pay their staff's salary, and fund their operations. USAS needs to be run for the benefit of their entire membership.
: Your silence implies consent...
: Scott
:
: : Sean not only seems ro be an excellent marksmans but very well mannered and mature young man as well. His high degree of self disipline will serve him well in life as a competitor and contributing member of society. Congratulations, Sean , on your accomplishments and best of luck in setting the record again...You seem to have a fune dad as well!......gtb
: : : That sounds like a newsheadline. But it's true. I am sharing this USAS decision to TT readers because it was in this forum that my son's (Sean Ragay) record breaking shots came out first. Some of you were so kind by sending congratulatory messages to my son and you deserve to know what came out of the certification process. We would have preferred to keep this matter private. We received today an email from USAS Mary Smith that because there were not enough shooters at the PTO, Sean's record breaking shots cannot be certified by USAS. USAS Rules required at least 10 shooters; and Ms. Smith noted that there were only "7 males and 2 females" competitors during the match. Apparently, we were short of 1 shooter. There used to be no requirement for minimum number of shooters for a new record to be set; but the rule was amended in April 2002. I am surprised that the host club was not aware of this new requirement when it certified the form it sent to USAS.
: : : I broke this decision to Sean today who was a bit surprised but took the news with humility. The new USAS Rules may have broken his heart, but not his spirit to compete and excel in this olympic shooting sports. We graciously accepted this USAS decision. Thank you all for your kind words.
: : : Herein below are my and USAS' emails.
: : : -------------------------------------------------------------------------
: : : I did received the national record application from Eddie Abalo. The
: : : problem is that a minimum of 10 competitors is required in an event in order for a national record to be set. This competition only had 7 men and 2 women. There were not enough competitors to allow a national record to be set. I'm sorry for the circumstances. I look forward to seeing another national record application for Sean where he has been able to shoot in a match with enough competitors to break the record.
: : : Mary S. Smith
: : : Competitions Manager
: : : USA Shooting
: : : -----Original Message-----
: : : From: Efren Ragay [mailto:ratherbe@adelphia.net]
: : : Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2003 9:06 AM
: : : To: Competitions@usashooting.org; Robert.Mitchell@usashooting.org
: : : Cc: abalo; laura Tyler
: : : Subject: J2 National Record Status
: : :
: : : During the U.S. International AP & AR PTO hosted by the Los Angeles
: : : Rifle & Revolver Club (LARRC) in June 12, 2003 at the Phoenix Club,
: : : Anaheim, California, my son, Sean Ragay, shot what appeared to be a new
: : : J2 AP national record. The targets were rechecked and verified a couple of times immediately after the match and an application form for a new national record completed. Mr. Eddie Abalo of the LARRC sent the form to USAS after he verified the targets. As of last week, Mr. Abalo had not received any communication regarding your decision on this matter.
: : : I noticed that your website was recently updated with new records set at the 2003 USASNC. I am not familiar with USAS' certification process of a new record. Although Sean has never asked me about the status of his J2 record, I hope that you can inform us if his record setting shots deserves official recognition from USAS.
: : : Thank you.
: : : Efren Ragay
: : : cc: Laura Tyler
: : : Sean's OTC-USAS Pistol Camp Coach
slocat-at-aol.,com.43186.43164
: As an athlete, and at the risk of offending some of the 'powers that be' (...as if that's ever stopped me from speaking my mind when I think a basic moral issue is involved...)
: An athlete of any age or ability works hard to excel in their event(s) through long hours of training. They pay their annual USAS dues, enter a USAS sanctioned match in good faith, pay their match entry fees to the local club and their sanctioning fees to USAS. They have a good day and push back an age group national record by a point or two.
: Then USAS says, 'Oh, so sorry, but even though you just shot better than anyone else in your age group has ever shot in that event, anywhere in this vast country of 280 million people, and even though we at USAS gladly take your money in the form of annual membership dues, sanctioning fees and match fees, and even thought you as an athlete followed all the USAS rules, and shot in our USAS sanctioned event, and had that match result certified and submitted by the USAS affiliated match organizers, ...uhhhh... because of circumstances totally beyond the control of either you as the athlete and/or the event organizers, a certain randomly determined minimum number of athletes were not on the firing line, and so we simply refuse to acknowledge your outstanding performance. Have a nice day, and keep sending us your money.
: In most club's PTO's locally, and even at many national level events, there aren't 10 athletes on the line in any number of the events. There often aren't 10 athletes overall in both men's and women's RT, or in most of the 25m pistol events at USASNC in some years.
: Why 10 athletes minimum? Why not 1 or 5 or 50 or 500? If you showed up and played by all the rules and pushed back a national record, why does USAS choose to penalize you, the shooter who showed up and performed for the laziness and inactivity on the part of those shooters who just stayed home?
: Here's another case in point. Where's the 50ft RFP records at USAS? They have approved 50 ft reduced range targets for every pistol and rifle event, and they have adopted full rules and requirements for the reduced range events. People pay their USAS sanctioning fees to shoot 50ft events all over the country. You can shoot a 'cut score' for invitation to USASNC at 50ft.
: Many dedicated USAS clubs only have 50ft to work with. In my home state thare are NO USAS sanctioned matches, in either rifle or pistol beyond 50ft anywhere in the state. I'd have to drive or fly 600 to 1000 miles each way just to shoot a full distance USAS sanctioned rifle or pistol match.(Heck, the NRA even has an annual national indoor championship at 50ft for Free and Standard pistol, along with conventional pistol and smallbore rifle.) So why no national USAS records at 50 ft for RFP? If USAS won't recognize a 50ft national record, why should we as athletes pay them a sanctioning fee to shoot in that event?
: Excellence in performance is excellence, pure and simple, and it should be recognized as such. If USAS takes your money to enter a sanctioned event, and it's run by the current USAS rules, you should be able to set a national record there, regardless of the turnout. If you can't set a national record in that match, USAS has no business taking your money to sanction it.
: IMHO, the current policy is another example of USAS being out of touch with the needs and desires of the shooting sports rank and file. The competitive shooting world will not come to an crashing end, and the sport will not suffer from diminished status if USAS opened up their national record process to reflect the reality of age-group athlete performance and the small fields of competitors rather than imposing their overly-strict guidelines from the ivory towers of USOTC.
: In addition, I also think it is an important part of both the athlete's and match organizer's moral obligation to speak out on the subject to both USAS and to their fellow athletes when their exceptional performances are not being recognized by the NGB, and their good faith efforts at participation are being abused.
: USAS is made up of their entire membership, it's not just some small cadre of elite shooters in Colorado. You, as USAS members pay their staff's salary, and fund their operations. USAS needs to be run for the benefit of their entire membership.
: Your silence implies consent...
: Scott
:
: : Sean not only seems ro be an excellent marksmans but very well mannered and mature young man as well. His high degree of self disipline will serve him well in life as a competitor and contributing member of society. Congratulations, Sean , on your accomplishments and best of luck in setting the record again...You seem to have a fune dad as well!......gtb
: : : That sounds like a newsheadline. But it's true. I am sharing this USAS decision to TT readers because it was in this forum that my son's (Sean Ragay) record breaking shots came out first. Some of you were so kind by sending congratulatory messages to my son and you deserve to know what came out of the certification process. We would have preferred to keep this matter private. We received today an email from USAS Mary Smith that because there were not enough shooters at the PTO, Sean's record breaking shots cannot be certified by USAS. USAS Rules required at least 10 shooters; and Ms. Smith noted that there were only "7 males and 2 females" competitors during the match. Apparently, we were short of 1 shooter. There used to be no requirement for minimum number of shooters for a new record to be set; but the rule was amended in April 2002. I am surprised that the host club was not aware of this new requirement when it certified the form it sent to USAS.
: : : I broke this decision to Sean today who was a bit surprised but took the news with humility. The new USAS Rules may have broken his heart, but not his spirit to compete and excel in this olympic shooting sports. We graciously accepted this USAS decision. Thank you all for your kind words.
: : : Herein below are my and USAS' emails.
: : : -------------------------------------------------------------------------
: : : I did received the national record application from Eddie Abalo. The
: : : problem is that a minimum of 10 competitors is required in an event in order for a national record to be set. This competition only had 7 men and 2 women. There were not enough competitors to allow a national record to be set. I'm sorry for the circumstances. I look forward to seeing another national record application for Sean where he has been able to shoot in a match with enough competitors to break the record.
: : : Mary S. Smith
: : : Competitions Manager
: : : USA Shooting
: : : -----Original Message-----
: : : From: Efren Ragay [mailto:ratherbe@adelphia.net]
: : : Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2003 9:06 AM
: : : To: Competitions@usashooting.org; Robert.Mitchell@usashooting.org
: : : Cc: abalo; laura Tyler
: : : Subject: J2 National Record Status
: : :
: : : During the U.S. International AP & AR PTO hosted by the Los Angeles
: : : Rifle & Revolver Club (LARRC) in June 12, 2003 at the Phoenix Club,
: : : Anaheim, California, my son, Sean Ragay, shot what appeared to be a new
: : : J2 AP national record. The targets were rechecked and verified a couple of times immediately after the match and an application form for a new national record completed. Mr. Eddie Abalo of the LARRC sent the form to USAS after he verified the targets. As of last week, Mr. Abalo had not received any communication regarding your decision on this matter.
: : : I noticed that your website was recently updated with new records set at the 2003 USASNC. I am not familiar with USAS' certification process of a new record. Although Sean has never asked me about the status of his J2 record, I hope that you can inform us if his record setting shots deserves official recognition from USAS.
: : : Thank you.
: : : Efren Ragay
: : : cc: Laura Tyler
: : : Sean's OTC-USAS Pistol Camp Coach
slocat-at-aol.,com.43186.43164
-
Slo cat
How does one go about changing a USAS rule?
I was bitten by this particular rule. I shot a new senior record (S2) in free pistol, but after checking the USAS rules, saw that there were not enough competitors in the match for the record to qualify. So I let it drop.
NRA conventional pistol rules only allow new records in registered matches, but not in approved matches. In registered matches, there is an attempt to have a referee in attendance, who can fill out the forms, weigh the trigger, be a neutral witness, etc., when a new record is shot. There is no miminum number of competitors necessary to qualify a new record.
Does USAS have a Rules Committee? How does one contact an official representative with a suggested rule change?
slocat-at-aol.,com.43187.43164
NRA conventional pistol rules only allow new records in registered matches, but not in approved matches. In registered matches, there is an attempt to have a referee in attendance, who can fill out the forms, weigh the trigger, be a neutral witness, etc., when a new record is shot. There is no miminum number of competitors necessary to qualify a new record.
Does USAS have a Rules Committee? How does one contact an official representative with a suggested rule change?
slocat-at-aol.,com.43187.43164
-
EfrenR
Thank You All
Thank you Gaines, Scott, W.B., Rodm, Mark, Greg, and all those who sent us e-mails for your
encouraging and enlightening words of wisdom. I printed all your messages for Sean to read (he
didn't know beforehand that I posted this issue on TT). We are just fortunate and grateful that we
live in a democratic society where free speech is a valued right, where an open exchange of ideas strengthens rather than weakens our democratic values, where rules are debated, enforced and modified to promote our common goals - values that most of us responsible parents teach, directly or indirectly, our children. Until the rules are changed, we intend to observe them notwithstanding our personal reasons for disagreeing with them. Sean looks forward to future competitions and PTOs, regardless of whether there are a minimum number of shooters present for record setting shots. As long as he continues to compete, I will continue to support him, drive or fly him to competitions where he loves to be with fellow athletes with whom he shares common interest.
USAS, presumably, read and listen to our TT postings (they reacted positively to our TT postings on "Minimum Qualifying Scores for the Nationals" by saying that the Regionals needed to be "re-done" and the Nationals would be open.) This TT forum has done a lot of good things for our shooting sports. Keep the debate on all issues affecting us and our sports going. And let's hope, USAS will continue to listen.
ratherbe-at-adelphia.net.43196.43148
encouraging and enlightening words of wisdom. I printed all your messages for Sean to read (he
didn't know beforehand that I posted this issue on TT). We are just fortunate and grateful that we
live in a democratic society where free speech is a valued right, where an open exchange of ideas strengthens rather than weakens our democratic values, where rules are debated, enforced and modified to promote our common goals - values that most of us responsible parents teach, directly or indirectly, our children. Until the rules are changed, we intend to observe them notwithstanding our personal reasons for disagreeing with them. Sean looks forward to future competitions and PTOs, regardless of whether there are a minimum number of shooters present for record setting shots. As long as he continues to compete, I will continue to support him, drive or fly him to competitions where he loves to be with fellow athletes with whom he shares common interest.
USAS, presumably, read and listen to our TT postings (they reacted positively to our TT postings on "Minimum Qualifying Scores for the Nationals" by saying that the Regionals needed to be "re-done" and the Nationals would be open.) This TT forum has done a lot of good things for our shooting sports. Keep the debate on all issues affecting us and our sports going. And let's hope, USAS will continue to listen.
ratherbe-at-adelphia.net.43196.43148
-
PW
Re: USAS' Policy May be What's Really Broken
I imagine the reason they have a minimum number of competitors is to provide some kind of match atmosphere. It is easier to shoot when you are the only one on the line, as opposed to when you are in the midst of 20 or 30.
So a PTO doesn't necessarily have a Judge present?
.43198.43181
So a PTO doesn't necessarily have a Judge present?
.43198.43181
-
EfrenR
Re: How does one go about changing a USAS rule?
USAS Rules: The "Board of Director" of USAS approves its rules and regulations. The rules & regulations can only be amended by the Board, and any amendment, modification, and changes can only be effective upon its publication on USAS "Quickshots".
My Opinion: As a member of USAS, you may submit in writing proposed changes or additions to the rules & regulations and request that your proposal be considered (and voted) by the Board. Address your correspondence to the Board of Directors so it cannot be summuarily dismissed without submitting the issue to the Board. I suggest that you familiarize yourself with the ISSF Rules & Regulations before you submit your proposed amendments. USAS adopts ISSF Rules & Regulations and adds, in some instances, its own rules (a mix of ISSF-USAS rules). I think it will be difficult for the USAS Board of Directors to adopt any proposed rule/amendment that is contrary to ISSF rules, otherwise USAS' recognition by the "world governing body of shooting, the ISSF", and by the U.S. Olympic Committee, as the governing body of the olympic shooting sports in the U.S.A. will be adversely compromised.
ratherbe-at-adelphia.net.43200.43187
My Opinion: As a member of USAS, you may submit in writing proposed changes or additions to the rules & regulations and request that your proposal be considered (and voted) by the Board. Address your correspondence to the Board of Directors so it cannot be summuarily dismissed without submitting the issue to the Board. I suggest that you familiarize yourself with the ISSF Rules & Regulations before you submit your proposed amendments. USAS adopts ISSF Rules & Regulations and adds, in some instances, its own rules (a mix of ISSF-USAS rules). I think it will be difficult for the USAS Board of Directors to adopt any proposed rule/amendment that is contrary to ISSF rules, otherwise USAS' recognition by the "world governing body of shooting, the ISSF", and by the U.S. Olympic Committee, as the governing body of the olympic shooting sports in the U.S.A. will be adversely compromised.
ratherbe-at-adelphia.net.43200.43187
-
Hektor Dino
I WAS THERE
Mark Dennehy wrote: "...Better to expect that the USAS will not make the rules based on anything but the furtherance of target shooting. As opposed to this rule which does not promote target shooting..."
On my first visit to Phoenix Club in Anaheim (CA), I was glad to hear that one of the shooters had broken a record. He shot in the company of Chris Abalo(one of the top US shooters) and Jakkrit P.(former World Cup Silver Medalist). I believe J.P. shot nine points better. How's that for mental pressure? While some may have a point that a competitive atmosfere is an important element in setting a record, I don't think such standards are apropriate for the USA. Anaheim(CA) is in an extremely fast and dense urban area. Yet, you only get 7-9 shooters on a PTO and 4-5 on a regular day. Adhering to this stupid rule will only make things worse. By the way, Sean seams to be a very humble young man. In spite of his success, his attitude didn't change a bit, but he did have a smile on his face. Later he even stopped to talk to Jakkrit P. and to get advice from the bigger guy. How many youngsters are like that?
hsdino2-at-aol.com.43210.43184
On my first visit to Phoenix Club in Anaheim (CA), I was glad to hear that one of the shooters had broken a record. He shot in the company of Chris Abalo(one of the top US shooters) and Jakkrit P.(former World Cup Silver Medalist). I believe J.P. shot nine points better. How's that for mental pressure? While some may have a point that a competitive atmosfere is an important element in setting a record, I don't think such standards are apropriate for the USA. Anaheim(CA) is in an extremely fast and dense urban area. Yet, you only get 7-9 shooters on a PTO and 4-5 on a regular day. Adhering to this stupid rule will only make things worse. By the way, Sean seams to be a very humble young man. In spite of his success, his attitude didn't change a bit, but he did have a smile on his face. Later he even stopped to talk to Jakkrit P. and to get advice from the bigger guy. How many youngsters are like that?
hsdino2-at-aol.com.43210.43184
-
Anon
Shoot NRA Matches (ISSF Is an Option)- Just A Thought (nt)
: That sounds like a newsheadline. But it's true. I am sharing this USAS decision to TT readers because it was in this forum that my son's (Sean Ragay) record breaking shots came out first. Some of you were so kind by sending congratulatory messages to my son and you deserve to know what came out of the certification process. We would have preferred to keep this matter private. We received today an email from USAS Mary Smith that because there were not enough shooters at the PTO, Sean's record breaking shots cannot be certified by USAS. USAS Rules required at least 10 shooters; and Ms. Smith noted that there were only "7 males and 2 females" competitors during the match. Apparently, we were short of 1 shooter. There used to be no requirement for minimum number of shooters for a new record to be set; but the rule was amended in April 2002. I am surprised that the host club was not aware of this new requirement when it certified the form it sent to USAS.
: I broke this decision to Sean today who was a bit surprised but took the news with humility. The new USAS Rules may have broken his heart, but not his spirit to compete and excel in this olympic shooting sports. We graciously accepted this USAS decision. Thank you all for your kind words.
: Herein below are my and USAS' emails.
: -------------------------------------------------------------------------
: I did received the national record application from Eddie Abalo. The
: problem is that a minimum of 10 competitors is required in an event in order for a national record to be set. This competition only had 7 men and 2 women. There were not enough competitors to allow a national record to be set. I'm sorry for the circumstances. I look forward to seeing another national record application for Sean where he has been able to shoot in a match with enough competitors to break the record.
: Mary S. Smith
: Competitions Manager
: USA Shooting
: -----Original Message-----
: From: Efren Ragay [mailto:ratherbe@adelphia.net]
: Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2003 9:06 AM
: To: Competitions@usashooting.org; Robert.Mitchell@usashooting.org
: Cc: abalo; laura Tyler
: Subject: J2 National Record Status
:
: During the U.S. International AP & AR PTO hosted by the Los Angeles
: Rifle & Revolver Club (LARRC) in June 12, 2003 at the Phoenix Club,
: Anaheim, California, my son, Sean Ragay, shot what appeared to be a new
: J2 AP national record. The targets were rechecked and verified a couple of times immediately after the match and an application form for a new national record completed. Mr. Eddie Abalo of the LARRC sent the form to USAS after he verified the targets. As of last week, Mr. Abalo had not received any communication regarding your decision on this matter.
: I noticed that your website was recently updated with new records set at the 2003 USASNC. I am not familiar with USAS' certification process of a new record. Although Sean has never asked me about the status of his J2 record, I hope that you can inform us if his record setting shots deserves official recognition from USAS.
: Thank you.
: Efren Ragay
: cc: Laura Tyler
: Sean's OTC-USAS Pistol Camp Coach
.43218.43148
: I broke this decision to Sean today who was a bit surprised but took the news with humility. The new USAS Rules may have broken his heart, but not his spirit to compete and excel in this olympic shooting sports. We graciously accepted this USAS decision. Thank you all for your kind words.
: Herein below are my and USAS' emails.
: -------------------------------------------------------------------------
: I did received the national record application from Eddie Abalo. The
: problem is that a minimum of 10 competitors is required in an event in order for a national record to be set. This competition only had 7 men and 2 women. There were not enough competitors to allow a national record to be set. I'm sorry for the circumstances. I look forward to seeing another national record application for Sean where he has been able to shoot in a match with enough competitors to break the record.
: Mary S. Smith
: Competitions Manager
: USA Shooting
: -----Original Message-----
: From: Efren Ragay [mailto:ratherbe@adelphia.net]
: Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2003 9:06 AM
: To: Competitions@usashooting.org; Robert.Mitchell@usashooting.org
: Cc: abalo; laura Tyler
: Subject: J2 National Record Status
:
: During the U.S. International AP & AR PTO hosted by the Los Angeles
: Rifle & Revolver Club (LARRC) in June 12, 2003 at the Phoenix Club,
: Anaheim, California, my son, Sean Ragay, shot what appeared to be a new
: J2 AP national record. The targets were rechecked and verified a couple of times immediately after the match and an application form for a new national record completed. Mr. Eddie Abalo of the LARRC sent the form to USAS after he verified the targets. As of last week, Mr. Abalo had not received any communication regarding your decision on this matter.
: I noticed that your website was recently updated with new records set at the 2003 USASNC. I am not familiar with USAS' certification process of a new record. Although Sean has never asked me about the status of his J2 record, I hope that you can inform us if his record setting shots deserves official recognition from USAS.
: Thank you.
: Efren Ragay
: cc: Laura Tyler
: Sean's OTC-USAS Pistol Camp Coach
.43218.43148