Sweidish Sport letter on gender proposals! excellent read

[jmdavis]

I watch every single ISSF world cup, as much as possible live and the rest after the event.

I watched none of the Olympic shooting because it wasn't readily available. I will on occasion watch track and field but for the most part the popular events hold no interest for me.

Knowing some of the shooters, I would have very much liked to see and indeed would have paid to see a live stream of the shooting events.

I know women who compete on equal footing in the same matches with men and beat them. In NCAA competition this is true and Ginny Thrasher has beaten alot of men with her air rifle. I think that a freepistol NCAA record was held by a woman at one time. I also know women who compete in NRA long range and High Power who regularly beat the male competitors. When Sherri Gallagher shoots a 2396 of 2400 at 200, 300, and 600 yards, there is no doubt that women can compete. If gender equality were the goal we would make all of the events mixed. Then there would be no question about the equality. But some countries don't want their men to lose to women and won't compete. And some people think equal opportunity means equal medal count.

On the final issue, I have shot laser, air pistols and firearms. The easiest is the laser and I know no one who doesn't shoot better scores with it than with a firearm. Air pistols at 10m are difficult, but one has only to look at the difference in scores between the AP at 10m and the Free Pistol to realize what is more difficult.

I will soon be 53 and my Olympic hopes were over before I even began competing in precision events at the age of 47. But in running pistol matches for a club this year I will offer free pistol as an additional match so that my competitors who are interested in shooting it have the opportunity. I will also shoot those events, and shooting 60 shot match following 90 shots of rimfire, 90 of Centerfire and 90 of .45 will make for a LONG day.

[jhmartin]

I think the gender thing is just a white elephant. the reason the ISSF and IOC want to get rid of 50m events is cost.

Then why are they supporting the 3-Positional Rifle events.

David ... my opinion on your question: For Now.

When they start (within 4-6 years, my guess) a 3-P Air exhibition event, then you'll know that 50m is done.

[Trooperjake]

Letter makes sense to me.....

[97nick]

I think the gender thing is just a white elephant. the reason the ISSF and IOC want to get rid of 50m events is cost.

Then why are they supporting the 3-Positional Rifle events.

David ... my opinion on your question: For Now.

When they start (within 4-6 years, my guess) a 3-P Air exhibition event, then you'll know that 50m is done.

I agree.

[Xman]

If a country does not want or allow women to compete with men as a written OR unwritten rule in WC or other elite shooting events or be awarded slots or whatever, then dont let the counties compete at all in the shooting events. IOC banned South Africa or its segregation policies. Why not ban countries that "ban" ladies from certain events when when they can compete equally.

IOC should dictate to the countries governing bodies than screw up the entire shooting program world wide.

Make all events mixed. Ladies WILL catch up with medals where they need to by competing and training against the best. It may take a cycle or 2. but it will happen. Shooting against the bet raises all scores.

[jhmartin]

If a country does not want or allow women to compete with men as a written OR unwritten rule in WC or other elite shooting events or be awarded slots or whatever, then dont let the counties compete at all in the shooting events. IOC banned South Africa or its segregation policies. Why not ban countries that "ban" ladies from certain events when when they can compete equally.

IOC should dictate to the countries governing bodies than screw up the entire shooting program world wide.

Make all events mixed. Ladies WILL catch up with medals where they need to by competing and training against the best. It may take a cycle or 2. but it will happen. Shooting against the bet raises all scores.

Very good & simple post.
If a nation does not want their men to compete against women ... then they don't have to compete.
(Oh, to be totally PC, vice-versa too!)

[David Levene]

If a country does not want or allow women to compete with men as a written OR unwritten rule in WC or other elite shooting events or be awarded slots or whatever, then dont let the counties compete at all in the shooting events. IOC banned South Africa or its segregation policies. Why not ban countries that "ban" ladies from certain events when when they can compete equally.

IOC should dictate to the countries governing bodies than screw up the entire shooting program world wide.

Make all events mixed. Ladies WILL catch up with medals where they need to by competing and training against the best. It may take a cycle or 2. but it will happen. Shooting against the bet raises all scores.

Very good & simple post.

How would you guarantee a 50/50 gender split at the Olympics, which is the requirement.

[jhmartin]

Since it is a stupid requirement .... just as setting a required medal count for each country would be, push it down to the federations.

Whenever you set a mandatory quota like that, it will ALWAYS be unfair to some and an advantage to others.

Bring the best

[David Levene]

Since it is a stupid requirement .... just as setting a required medal count for each country would be, push it down to the federations.

Whether you think it's a stupid requirement or not isn't the point.

The point is that it's what the IOC want and, as I've said before, they own the Olympics and will get what they want.

[SlartyBartFast]

Since it is a stupid requirement .... just as setting a required medal count for each country would be, push it down to the federations.

Whenever you set a mandatory quota like that, it will ALWAYS be unfair to some and an advantage to others.

Bring the best

So easy for a man to say. Men have benifitted from a sexist advantage for decades with men's only free pistol and prone events.

Should the winter Olympics get rid of women's hockey and hockey be made mixed? If it's only about a genderless "Bring the best", why treat different sports differently?

The "stupid requirement" is that the best men and the best women be recognised in each and every sport represented at the Olympics.

[Xman]

If a country does not want or allow women to compete with men as a written OR unwritten rule in WC or other elite shooting events or be awarded slots or whatever, then dont let the counties compete at all in the shooting events. IOC banned South Africa or its segregation policies. Why not ban countries that "ban" ladies from certain events when when they can compete equally.

IOC should dictate to the countries governing bodies than screw up the entire shooting program world wide.

Make all events mixed. Ladies WILL catch up with medals where they need to by competing and training against the best. It may take a cycle or 2. but it will happen. Shooting against the bet raises all scores.

Very good & simple post.

How would you guarantee a 50/50 gender split at the Olympics, which is the requirement.

Those countries that let women and men shoot equally against each other get more slots to make up for the loss of the anti women competing countries. It could be lottery based, WC performance based, national governing body selection based. A nation get extra slot/s from a lottery, use WC/other performance and then selection by their NGB. The 50/50 split may never be achieved, it can get close based on the total number of ladies at elite level ratios. The lottery would dictate the selection must be male or female based on the loss of competing countries due to their selection inequalities.

The c**p about equality of out come, ie medals is outright ludicrous. It reminds me the inane everyone gets a award/trophy for participating mindset that has infected sport at childrens level team sports in the US. Women will have to EARN medals just like the men do .. via performance..either in an event of their own or shoulder to shoulder with the men.

[SlartyBartFast]

/Women will have to EARN medals just like the men do .. via performance..either in an event of their own or shoulder to shoulder with the men.

Disgusting. Fact is that women have had fewer disciplines for decades. And men have exclusively had prone and fp at the Olympics.
Now that something is being done to even things up, here are all the men whining about how unfair it is.

The ship has sailed. The Olympics is divided between men and women. That line must now be redrawn down the middle.

Those countries that have enough women competing and have them compete at the same level as the men will Dominate gender differentiated competition. And perhaps one day the majority of the world will be at that point.

But if your club isn't! 50/50 men ando women, the way to increase participation isn't to tell any women interested to suck it up and compete with the men. No more so than you'd attract new shooters by telling the juniors to suck it up and compete with the seniors.

[Marc Orvin]

But if your club isn't! 50/50 men ando women, the way to increase participation isn't to tell any women interested to suck it up and compete with the men. No more so than you'd attract new shooters by telling the juniors to suck it up and compete with the seniors.

At my club the seniors have to suck it up to compete with the juniors!

[Xman]

/Women will have to EARN medals just like the men do .. via performance..either in an event of their own or shoulder to shoulder with the men.

Disgusting. Fact is that women have had fewer disciplines for decades. And men have exclusively had prone and fp at the Olympics.
Now that something is being done to even things up, here are all the men whining about how unfair it is.

The ship has sailed. The Olympics is divided between men and women. That line must now be redrawn down the middle.

Those countries that have enough women competing and have them compete at the same level as the men will Dominate gender differentiated competition. And perhaps one day the majority of the world will be at that point.

But if your club isn't! 50/50 men ando women, the way to increase participation isn't to tell any women interested to suck it up and compete with the men. No more so than you'd attract new shooters by telling the juniors to suck it up and compete with the seniors.

So lets ...


1. let women have their own events, 3P, P, etc, etc or
2. Let the women shoot WITH the men, against the men, with the insane 50/50 rule and equal outcome provision and see how that goes. NGBs are going to vomit or are vomiting to make "workable". or
3. To make it "FAIR" due to the domination of men (ie, higher scores, more participants, weightier guns due to more testosterone, hairy knuckles dragging on the ground, lets give the women a edge with extra points..how about 10, no make it 25 points, Even in WC events. that will give better than 50/50 slots and more than make up the equal outcomes that the IOC wants at SOG. (#3 tongue in cheek)

Better yet make the medals smaller and give one to everybody. Spectators too..Especially the ladies to use as a bangle on a bracelet. Or belly button dangle

Shooting is the maybe the least gender differentiated sport the SOG can have if it is done RIGHT.( See # 1 above) That is if the IOC ie The Continentals had any guts/balls at all. They want "their" change and they want it NOW. NO! NO! NO! it cant wait, have to be ASAP. The women just cant develop skill wise and shoot like the men, they need to be equal in numbers to the men. lets artificially create it, Firing line in OG must have equal estrogen no matter what! Has to be before 2020! We have to put our jack boot heel on the necks of the ISSF so as not to offend the fairer sex..ie women spectators, way overly "sensitive" sponsors, and the usual suspects in the PC/EU populations and be so blatantly overloaded with..OMG men!! Gotta be 50/50 WITH equal outcomes!!! No sir. cant wait, Have to do this now this way..nothing else can work.

I just wonder where and when the "balls and the brains" left the IOC.

Oh and yes. 3P Air and PAir will replace 50m in 2024 in Los Angeles. Other than AP all other pistol events (if any remain by then) will be Laser then too.

ALL of the above are deeply rooted in THE MONEY!!

Break up the Olympics as another poster suggested. Too big too bloated for a city to handle. It would mean more participants. MORE events....(Drone racing anyone..oops thats a demo sport for LA.)

2028 Transgender events...Mixed team events. 33/33/33/ with equal outcomes.

[renzo]

But if your club isn't! 50/50 men ando women, the way to increase participation isn't to tell any women interested to suck it up and compete with the men. No more so than you'd attract new shooters by telling the juniors to suck it up and compete with the seniors.

I think you`re so engaged in your own argument that you`re turning a blind eye on reality.

I`m a long time competitor, and I participate at the highest levels of office at the club I belong to, the local Federation and the National one. At grasroots levels, I`ve seen NOT ONE club which can boast of a 20 % women membership, let alone competition.

For a lot of reasons (mostly cultural and/or behavioral) a lot more men were attracted to shooting sports (especially Olympic specialities) than women for the most part of the 20 th. century. Efforts are made to balance this disproportion......... and you think that an overnight axe chopping will achieve this balance?

Mark my words, with the momentarily exception of air disciplines, shooting is a lame duck regarding Olympic participation. Now I´ve received news that it`s been under consideration to exclude all 50 meter events, and this will be followed by all the cartridge events.

Then we could all be thanful to the Joao Havelange of the IOC (Mr. Samaranch) who let the drug crazed NBA Dream Team slip thru the doping tests just to enhance his native Barcelona Games, and to Mr. Vazquez Raña, who at 80 evidently hasn`t had enough ass-kissing and 5-stars suites.....................................

[David Levene]

1. let women have their own events, 3P, P, etc, etc or
2. Let the women shoot WITH the men, against the men, with the insane 50/50 rule and equal outcome provision and see how that goes. NGBs are going to vomit or are vomiting to make "workable". or
3. To make it "FAIR" due to the domination of men (ie, higher scores, more participants, weightier guns due to more testosterone, hairy knuckles dragging on the ground, lets give the women a edge with extra points..how about 10, no make it 25 points, Even in WC events. that will give better than 50/50 slots and more than make up the equal outcomes that the IOC wants at SOG. (#3 tongue in cheek)

As an alternative, why not have mixed gender team events?

Oh, hang on, that's what the IOC like and the ISSF have suggested.

[mbradley]

I think the gender thing is just a white elephant. the reason the ISSF and IOC want to get rid of 50m events is cost.

The cost of a 50m range would not be even a fraction of the wine bill for Olympic officials meals.

[renzo]

As an alternative, why not have mixed gender team events?

Oh, hang on, that's what the IOC like and the ISSF have suggested.

Apart from the irony, team events in shooting sports were barred from the OG back in 1928 under the argument that there is not team interacting during the event, but a mere addition of scores.

You think this ruling is going to be reversed?

And what about the countries that don't get both genders qualified for the same event?

I'll say that this idea is mostly eurocentric.

[David Levene]

Apart from the irony, team events in shooting sports were barred from the OG back in 1928 under the argument that there is not team interacting during the event, but a mere addition of scores.

You think this ruling is going to be reversed?

I have seen one suggestion that is definitely not just the addition of scores. We will have to see whether it is taken up by the ISSF.

And what about the countries that don't get both genders qualified for the same event?

If they run the new team events at World Cups, which is what the IOC want, then QPs could be allocated in the same way as for individual events. It is extremely unlikely that those QPs would result in a requirement for twice the number of village bed spaces as it's a fair bet that most of the countries will already have at least one QP in the individual events. I can't think of any reason why a country wouldn't want an athlete they select for the individual events to also compete in the pairs.

[renzo]

If they run the new team events at World Cups, which is what the IOC want, then QPs could be allocated in the same way as for individual events. It is extremely unlikely that those QPs would result in a requirement for twice the number of village bed spaces as it's a fair bet that most of the countries will already have at least one QP in the individual events. I can't think of any reason why a country wouldn't want an athlete they select for the individual events to also compete in the pairs.

As I understand your position, you`re probable referring (corect me if I`m wrong) to the "lottery" system used in the mixed international team events at the YOG.

If it is so, my position is that the athletes must represent a country, that´s the spirit of the OG from ancient times (they represented city-states then) and modern. I see no value in winning a medal with a shooter paired up with me by lot.