walther kkm with anschutz match sights problem

[williamphillips]

http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/sh ... p?t=601855

At rimfirecentral.com, a suggestion was to come here. I have a problem with
getting my anschutz match set sights fitting on a rifle from Heritage Arms/ Naples Florida.
Walther has so many different models...not sure if KKM is proper designation.
On the receiver it says CarlWalther. Sportwaffenfabrik
Serial number: 008,818
Came without any sights...rear or front.
For an array of pictures:
https://picasaweb.google.com/1178714495 ... OneFromJoe

The front sight is too high for the rear sight. I could get a riser block..will this work? If so, will it fit properly on the rear
and it will be the correct height? Only so much play in the anschutz rear sight. I want it to be able to sight up to 100 yards.
Currently, the front sight does fit snugly. The seller asked me to send the anschutz set to them to determine if it will work...Hard for
me to comprehend as to how they said "no problem." Rear is wedged on and really too long. Front needed some polishing. My guess is that a 4mm high riser
block would work...but only a guess and not sure who sells this for a reasonable price...though I just did see an ebay source from UK.
Any feedback on the rifle, in general, and in particular about what to do with having an aperture sight work.

Been to the range once.
Shot Standard K and Aquilla rounds at 25 yards...not very impressed. Suspect that I need much more expensive ammo. Craning my neck
to get the rear and front to line up discouraged me from shooting very much. No doubt, bore needs seasoning as the first step.
Ultimately, I want to shoot this prone and mostly off hand. Not gonna bench rest as long as my body can handle it. Eyes on the cusp.
Hence, need for aperture. Rx glasses don't help. If this rifle ends up shooting well...may go to a low power scope.

Well, that's my story
and always like to hear feedback from the more experienced walther small bore owners.

The seller keeps telling me that they expect to get
a shipment in of walther sights...which for some unknown reason got separated from a large shipment of walther rifles. So far, my cost including
shipping and misc is about 350. 00. This is my second one from them. The first one had a great trigger...hated sending it back but the rifle should
never have been sold since the chamber had too much head space resulting in a slight bubble in the cartridge. Seller makes it sound like they are
anxious to please and MAYBE(?) doing me a favor by replacing it with this one. My sense is that the Walther rifles are getting dumped here with much
more demand for the vintage anschutz rifles where parts are still available. What I like about the walther vintage rifles is that they seem to have
better balance for off hand shooting.

[williamphillips]

I have added a picture of the rear annie sight that the seller mounted.
The bolt is short and does not interfere with aperture...though helps me
to understand why the walther original aperture rear sights has left to right
adjustment knob is on the left side rather than right. Also, the rail screw fittings
of the annie aperture sights have to be removed before placing on the rail of the
walther receiver...the tab for the bolt release interferes.
All doable...IF the rear and front sights lined up properly.

[dc.fireman]

William:

Anschutz sights, may or may not readily fit on Walther rifles. They don't readily fit on Feinwerkbau rifles either. Generally, you need some type of adapter made, because the dovetails are either wider, or have a slightly different angle. Use your favorite internet search engine to look up Bill Earnest, or Earnest Shooting Products. He may have several adapters already made. He had some for a rifle specific sight combination I was looking to use.

You can also look up Road Thing here, and see if he can make something for you - I know he does some fairly fancy machining work from time to time.

One thing you could try, is to find a two step base for the rear sight. Tec-Hro makes them, as does MEC/Centra, but they are rather expensive. You will still need to find some form of two-step front sight base, to switch readily from 50 --> 100 yds. One option, is to remove the existing front dovetail, and have the barrel drilled & tapped to accept the standard front two-step sight base.

Good luck! Can't wait to see what you come up with!

[Tim S]

Would it be possible to lower the foresight by filing the muzzle collar. Looking at the photo Walther cut a shallower dovetail than Anschutz. This would not address the fit of the rearsight on the receiver, but might free up some elevation adjustment.

[williamphillips]

[urlhttp://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/REAR-SIGHT-RISER-BLO ... 1505356399][/url]

This seller kindly replied...first retail response that has the ring of knowing more than the seller of the rifle. Sound workable? Not sure of the final price. Any guess as to height? As an aside, sure would like to find a reasonably priced palm rest for,shooting offhand. Original seller made the claim that the forward screw on the stock was added to accommodate one...but this seems erroneous.??? I did check out the pdf file on earnest products. Interesting.

Code: Select all

[quote]
The standard Walther rear dovetail is 0.2mm wider than the standard Anschutz models, which is why Anschutz sights need a small fettle to get them on the Walther.

I can make a 4mm riser, or an other height, to the Walther dovetail specification, once you have decided what you need, let me know and I will get one ready.[/quote]

[williamphillips]

Any suggestions on how to measure to determine height of riser for the rear annie sight
to make a good fit for the annie front sight?

[jhmartin]

Any suggestions on how to measure to determine height of riser for the rear annie sight
to make a good fit for the annie front sight?

For 50ft/50m try to get them close to the same .... above the center of the bore.
As long as you have about 4 full turns up on the sight after that, you can zero at 100 too

[williamphillips]

Any suggestions on how to measure to determine height of riser for the rear annie sight
to make a good fit for the annie front sight?

For 50ft/50m try to get them close to the same .... above the center of the bore.
As long as you have about 4 full turns up on the sight after that, you can zero at 100 too

But...which riser block if rear only for anschutz match set? 4,6,8 mm?

[jhmartin]

You'll need to measure.
measure the front sight to center of bore and then measure the rear sight with the elevation centered , again, mounted and center to bore.
The difference is what you should order on the side that is lower.

[yana]

Very common problem if yr using non-original sights. Been there done that..
Best and easiest fix is get original walther sights

[williamphillips]

Very common problem if yr using non-original sights. Been there done that..
Best and easiest fix is get original walther sights

Yes....that's the little voice in my head. Otherwise, any chance that someone will post that they have the same Walther and that a riser block of x mm,s worked fine...or that it was better to get a matching set of rising blocks for front and back?

Or, a Walther set to trade for the Annie sights?

[Scott J]

Any suggestions on how to measure to determine height of riser for the rear annie sight
to make a good fit for the annie front sight?

Yes a riser would work to "even" out the height difference. Might not be pretty , but if it works, who cares? I have done 2 different size risers on my Anschutz 1813 with a bloop tube. (17mm rear and 14mm front.)
I would try a 4mm riser in the back, just a hunch. Also you might try Earnest Shooting Products(ESP) , he is a small shop and might be able to help you out i.e. cut a riser with a Walther dovetail on the bottom and an Anschutz dove tail on the top. I know he does some FWB to Ans. risers.

ESP
Earnest Shooting Products
345 E. Coal St.
Trevorton, PA
17881
Ph. # (570) 797-4872
It's best to call him, and talk about what your after.


Hope you get it figured out,
Scott

[DWood]

I believe I have a walther KKM front sight in my spare parts bin. It may or may not be what you are looking for but It might be worth a try. Email me if you are interested. DanielJWood47 at yahoo.com

[williamphillips]

Bill Earnest and I talked...he's on the case, so to speak. He did express a caution that most
of the Walther rifles of which he is familiar are no further back than the '80's. With interest
I await to hear back from him. Thanks for the contact info. Meanwhile....

Any one able to say more as to the model of this Walther and approximate year manufactured? Bill said that it is not a "match rifle" since the barre; is under one inch.
My measurements using a caliper in mm's. I was surprised that dovetail is tapered. Explains why the annie rear sight goes on and then wedges.
Caliper is sensitive and I did have trouble getting a reliable measurement. The slightest pressure throws it off.
Barrel diameter
At bore: 18.72
In front of forestock: 20.36
In front of receiver: 21.98

Bolt: (not sure if this is considered short version or not...sometimes helps to id a rifle): 53mm

Rail:
The section forward of the breech from front to rear: 11.26 to 11.41
The section behind the breech from front to rear: 11.45 to 11.49

[williamphillips]

Earnest is not familiar enough with this rifle...wrong vintage for him and he's off the case.
Earl Sheehan...good guy...looked at the pictures. He confirmed.."match rifle", KKM,
older model probably from the 60's. A dovetail as measured by me...is about right.

Will take it to the range and see if I can approximate optimum height for a riser block.

[regi]

Had exactly the same problem when I wanted to use a diopter on my Walther from 1964.
Ordered a original sight, together with a shooting mate who had the same problem. Didn't arrive even after months and numerous mails and calls.
Got a "reworked" rear sight Anschütz diopter from a mate: rail was cut in half and filed at the back and legs spread open. Good gracious. but it worked. ( just replaced it with a proper one, and the first screw just passes over the bolt release knob )
Front sight was another story: didn't fit. Club instructor made one for me. He turned a part to pass over the barrel, and brazed a dove tail bridge on the flattened top. Costed me 50 $.
Than came instructions:
first remove the old front sight. But no screws? Mount the unstocked rifle in the workbench protecked by leather ( cut some old shoes apart ) Heat it a bit at the front sight. Use a wrench and wriggle it off. It worked!
Inner Ø of new front sight holder was by purpose too small because - hold on - the barrel is tapered ! I needed to remove material by applying grinding paper around a wooden mandrell ( read: chopstick ) and turn and turn and turn untill it fitted completely over the barrel. Yes, you are right when you say that at the back side it is than a bit too wide. Doesn't matter. Because I applied glue, which fills up the gap. ( and in case it needs to be removed again, just heat and the glue will cristalize )
Most tricky thing was to line it as horizontal as possible. There is a little decant which appears when I come from 100 to 50m, POI moves +- 5 clicks. ( vertically 46 clicks as usual)
Result:
at 100 m I placed 5 shots center 10 ctc 13 mm with SK Standard+, bipod front, bagg supported back.
At club competition level, I usually place +- 15 in 10 and +- 5 at the edge or just in the 9. So +- 195/200. Depends a bit if I am tired after a hole day behind the pc screen at work.
The Walther can hold its ground against Vostok, FWB, Unique, BSA, Haenel, Schultz & Larsen and standard Annie 54 match rifles. It only see its master in Annie 54 Super Match.

POI: without spacers/ risers, I am just +- 10 clicks away from the maximum. With standard ammo such as CCI, SK, RWS Rifle match. I don't use subsonic on 100 m. With High Velocity it hits +- 100 mm higher ( but looses precision )
Oh yes, I still have the old undamaged Walther bridge. It stays with the rifle.
Extra detail about the UIT rail at the bottom: you can use the standard Anschütz UIT slider with square corners. File it off at both sides to fit in the dove tail of the Walther rail. But you will see that you need to remove the stock first to be able to slide it in because the rail is embedded in the stock.