Dear All,
Hello! I have used your forum as a reference for a while now, but on this occasion I've had to resort to a post for assistance:
I shoot a Steyr LP10 with a factory grip in large. Unfortunately I find it ill-fitting, and I can't attain close contact around my thumb and trigger finger.
I'm wondering what I should do.
Firstly I'm struggling to find someone locally in the UK to adapt my grip, and I can't justify a trip to Germany where this service seems more widely available.
Secondly, I contacted Rink with an outline of my hand, who suggested I buy one of their grips in a medium.
This has made me think perhaps I ought to buy this new grip outright, as perhaps the origin of my problems stem from trying to use a large grip when I ought to have a medium? Or is there no equivalence between the sizes of the Steyr factory grips and Rink?
I appreciate any help you can give me!
All the best,
Peter
Grip Concerns
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Silvershooter
- Posts: 201
- Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2012 9:22 am
- Location: North of England
Re: Grip Concerns
There is a useful reference here:
file:///C:/Users/Zoo/Downloads/Essentials%20of%20the%20pistol%20grip%20(6).pdf
file:///C:/Users/Zoo/Downloads/Essentials%20of%20the%20pistol%20grip%20(6).pdf
Re: Grip Concerns
1st question: Why do you want close contact around your thumb & trigger finger?
The trigger finger is the only part of the hand that moves during the execution of the shot. If you don't want to affect the stability of your aim, you don't want ANY contact between the trigger finger and the grip.
As for the thumb, it is applying pressure sideways on the pistol. Any variation in that pressure will move your shots sideways. The most consistent pressure you can apply is ZERO. Again, no contact will produce tighter groups.
As for sizing, here's the best info I have been able to find on the various size designations used by different vendors:
Steyr does size things a bit different from Rink, but the threshold between L & M is the same. Rink has been in the business a long time, and if they think you would be better off with a M, I'd go for it. Adjustable grips may "fit" a range of hand sizes, but the details of what happens if you are near the break between sizes can make a big difference.
The trigger finger is the only part of the hand that moves during the execution of the shot. If you don't want to affect the stability of your aim, you don't want ANY contact between the trigger finger and the grip.
As for the thumb, it is applying pressure sideways on the pistol. Any variation in that pressure will move your shots sideways. The most consistent pressure you can apply is ZERO. Again, no contact will produce tighter groups.
As for sizing, here's the best info I have been able to find on the various size designations used by different vendors:
Steyr does size things a bit different from Rink, but the threshold between L & M is the same. Rink has been in the business a long time, and if they think you would be better off with a M, I'd go for it. Adjustable grips may "fit" a range of hand sizes, but the details of what happens if you are near the break between sizes can make a big difference.
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peterchopnitz
- Posts: 3
- Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2016 7:51 am
Re: Grip Concerns
Dear Gwhite,
Yes all good points. It's more the thenar space, as in between the index finger and thumb, I was looking for contact with, as at the moment I'm straining to stop the gun from slightly pivoting towards the ground? Is that an issue and effect you might expect?
Thank you for the resource though - very helpful.
Best
Peter
Yes all good points. It's more the thenar space, as in between the index finger and thumb, I was looking for contact with, as at the moment I'm straining to stop the gun from slightly pivoting towards the ground? Is that an issue and effect you might expect?
Thank you for the resource though - very helpful.
Best
Peter
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Silvershooter
- Posts: 201
- Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2012 9:22 am
- Location: North of England
Re: Grip Concerns
The link I posted is no good:
Go here
https://www.tenrings.co.uk/tips-and-tricks/
then scroll down to the 2nd pdf " Gripping the Pistol"
Go here
https://www.tenrings.co.uk/tips-and-tricks/
then scroll down to the 2nd pdf " Gripping the Pistol"
Re: Grip Concerns
The info posted by silvershooter is excellent.
The contact & pressure between the grip and the thumb & forefinger should be forward into the grip, along the line of the barrel. Contact above that area (under the sight) is unimportant. The vertical angle of the barrel should be determined by grip angle and wrist tension, with the pistol pivoting on the top of the 2nd finger, and being supported in the rear by the heel of the hand.
All significant contact & pressure needs to be in-line with the bore, not off-axis. A lot of the fancy fitted features of the grip are there to provide consistency by making sure the hand grips the pistol in the same location every time. Think of them as indexing/locating features. This does NOT mean that you want uniform pressure all over the place, especially on the sides. It may feel great, but if you have solid contact on the sides and you vary your grip pressure, the pistol will swing horizontally.
The contact & pressure between the grip and the thumb & forefinger should be forward into the grip, along the line of the barrel. Contact above that area (under the sight) is unimportant. The vertical angle of the barrel should be determined by grip angle and wrist tension, with the pistol pivoting on the top of the 2nd finger, and being supported in the rear by the heel of the hand.
All significant contact & pressure needs to be in-line with the bore, not off-axis. A lot of the fancy fitted features of the grip are there to provide consistency by making sure the hand grips the pistol in the same location every time. Think of them as indexing/locating features. This does NOT mean that you want uniform pressure all over the place, especially on the sides. It may feel great, but if you have solid contact on the sides and you vary your grip pressure, the pistol will swing horizontally.
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nick marshall
- Posts: 164
- Joined: Sun Jun 09, 2013 7:59 am
- Location: Shropshire. ENGLAND.
Re: Grip Concerns
Can I ask where in the UK do you live?
Re: Grip Concerns
Peter,
I have seen and/or tried grips made by all makers and so have most of my friends here in Germany. The conclusion is that there is just one man who is really capable of the job: Cesare Morini in Parma, Italy.
I have seen and/or tried grips made by all makers and so have most of my friends here in Germany. The conclusion is that there is just one man who is really capable of the job: Cesare Morini in Parma, Italy.
Re: Grip Concerns
Rink M is much smaller than Steyr M. I have a Rink MRB7 right in front of me. Had it for like 3 days and it's way too small. (bought it used just to see what a Rink is like). A typical Steyr M from current production on the other hand is too big for me. Huge difference.
You modify the grip yourself, every shooter does, don't let anyone but yourself do that. Rink won't help you.
Can you make a picture of you holding the pistol in your hand from several sides?
Measure the hand across, and then in length from the middle finger towards the first skin wrinkle on your wrist and post the numbers here
What year is your grip from? Steyr had different grips.
You modify the grip yourself, every shooter does, don't let anyone but yourself do that. Rink won't help you.
Can you make a picture of you holding the pistol in your hand from several sides?
Measure the hand across, and then in length from the middle finger towards the first skin wrinkle on your wrist and post the numbers here
What year is your grip from? Steyr had different grips.
Re: Grip Concerns
A while ago, Morini made grips for Steyr, and I think their sizing followed Morini's designations. I have a dim recollection that someone else may be making Steyr's grips now, so that could be part of the problem. My hand is 90mm across, and a medium Steyr from 6 or 7 years ago fits just as well as a medium Morini grip.
Re: Grip Concerns
Why to Germany?SamEEE wrote:A day trip to Germany (an expert) would be time and money well spent.
Re: Grip Concerns
Steyr grips are made by Pablo Alonso in Spain. He is a young shooter too.Gwhite wrote:A while ago, Morini made grips for Steyr, and I think their sizing followed Morini's designations. I have a dim recollection that someone else may be making Steyr's grips now, so that could be part of the problem. My hand is 90mm across, and a medium Steyr from 6 or 7 years ago fits just as well as a medium Morini grip.
Re: Grip Concerns
Peter,
I have had the "perfect" grip made by Cesare Morini a few weeks after I had taken for the first time a gun in my hand ( see one of my first post here with pictures). It was the only one who was really strongly recommended by experienced people here in Germany.
I didn't know the man at that time. As a result, I would rise the pistol and front and rear sights would be perfectly aligned, always!
I starten shooting better and better. It was January. Then summer came and I started having problems and the front sight would not be centred anymore. I had no bloody clue at the
At time (may be now too!) and a friend and an international shooter offered to correct it with a "tiny" adjustment (I had no opportunity to go back to Cesare in that period)....and he ruined my grip. At that time I did not know that one needs a winter and a summer grip! So I did not dare to go back to Cesare and tell him that I had trusted somebody else and get his grip ruined.
I have personally made over 60 grips, following the "book" rules, and I became quite good. Cesare once saw on one of my grips and said that it was the best non-professional grip he had ever seen.
For me the grip has become a kind of mania....either is good and I shoot mistly tens, or it isn't and there is no way I manage to get even a 9.
However making the grip by oneself is a crazily time consuming job and I now hate it and don't do it anymore.
And personally, of all the shooters I know who shoot regularly over 380/400 and compete at international level and/ or in the German Bundesliga, only one of them makes the grip by himself! ... and I know many of them as they are my fellow shooters in the club.
As I said I have seen and tried all the grip makers, also some of those who are often referred to in this chat. All the experienced shooter I know, over here in Germany, told me not to waste my money with other grip makers other than Cesare, but I did it (I am stubborn) and I regretted it!
All I can say is that there is nobody else other than Cesare for a custom grip! Don't wast your money.
He has "invented" the anatomic grips when he was a professional shooter in Italy, and he knows the technique. Everybody who tries him remains impressed. You close your eyes and rise the pistol. He stands in front of the muzzle,sees everything. He files and had material in the right place, and next time you rise the pistol with closed eyes it is perfectly centred! Also some of the things he does are not according to the book....but they are simply better than the book! (Any way, the book should have been written by Cesare himself, as he was the first to build the anatomical grip).
Sorry, nobody else can do that!
I have had the "perfect" grip made by Cesare Morini a few weeks after I had taken for the first time a gun in my hand ( see one of my first post here with pictures). It was the only one who was really strongly recommended by experienced people here in Germany.
I didn't know the man at that time. As a result, I would rise the pistol and front and rear sights would be perfectly aligned, always!
I starten shooting better and better. It was January. Then summer came and I started having problems and the front sight would not be centred anymore. I had no bloody clue at the
At time (may be now too!) and a friend and an international shooter offered to correct it with a "tiny" adjustment (I had no opportunity to go back to Cesare in that period)....and he ruined my grip. At that time I did not know that one needs a winter and a summer grip! So I did not dare to go back to Cesare and tell him that I had trusted somebody else and get his grip ruined.
I have personally made over 60 grips, following the "book" rules, and I became quite good. Cesare once saw on one of my grips and said that it was the best non-professional grip he had ever seen.
For me the grip has become a kind of mania....either is good and I shoot mistly tens, or it isn't and there is no way I manage to get even a 9.
However making the grip by oneself is a crazily time consuming job and I now hate it and don't do it anymore.
And personally, of all the shooters I know who shoot regularly over 380/400 and compete at international level and/ or in the German Bundesliga, only one of them makes the grip by himself! ... and I know many of them as they are my fellow shooters in the club.
As I said I have seen and tried all the grip makers, also some of those who are often referred to in this chat. All the experienced shooter I know, over here in Germany, told me not to waste my money with other grip makers other than Cesare, but I did it (I am stubborn) and I regretted it!
All I can say is that there is nobody else other than Cesare for a custom grip! Don't wast your money.
He has "invented" the anatomic grips when he was a professional shooter in Italy, and he knows the technique. Everybody who tries him remains impressed. You close your eyes and rise the pistol. He stands in front of the muzzle,sees everything. He files and had material in the right place, and next time you rise the pistol with closed eyes it is perfectly centred! Also some of the things he does are not according to the book....but they are simply better than the book! (Any way, the book should have been written by Cesare himself, as he was the first to build the anatomical grip).
Sorry, nobody else can do that!
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peterchopnitz
- Posts: 3
- Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2016 7:51 am
Re: Grip Concerns
Nick, I split my time between London and Edinburgh.nick marshall wrote:Can I ask where in the UK do you live?
With regards to the other questions raised, my pistol is 2014 manufacture, so on the recent side.
This Cesare Morini option is particularly appealing, as I am in Bologna near Parma in February. However I have noticed posts suggesting he only makes new custom grips for his own Match Guns pistols? If that's not the case, time and money wise what are the expectations here? A customisation of my oversized grip seems out the window...
I'll try and get some measurements on here ASAP.
Thanks for all the replies. This is invaluable for someone just progressing with their shooting.
Re: Grip Concerns
Can you give some examples of those things?therider wrote:Also some of the things he does are not according to the book....but they are simply better than the book!
Re: Grip Concerns
Peter,peterchopnitz wrote:Nick, I split my time between London and Edinburgh.nick marshall wrote:Can I ask where in the UK do you live?
With regards to the other questions raised, my pistol is 2014 manufacture, so on the recent side.
This Cesare Morini option is particularly appealing, as I am in Bologna near Parma in February. However I have noticed posts suggesting he only makes new custom grips for his own Match Guns pistols? If that's not the case, time and money wise what are the expectations here? A customisation of my oversized grip seems out the window...
I'll try and get some measurements on here ASAP.
Thanks for all the replies. This is invaluable for someone just progressing with their shooting.
Cesare makes any pistol grip. For what I have recently seen, he simply makes a discount if you shoot Matchguns.
For example I think that Pablo Carrera shoots steyr lp10 with a grip made by Cesare and Matchguns free pistol with grip made by Cesare.
Friends of mine just got Pardini k12 done by Cesare.
Certainly in Parma he takes more time than at the international venues. I would consider about 4 hours work, because the wood plaster needs to cure. Although, as I said, you'll get a perfect alignment within a few minutes, he then takes a lot of time for fine details which I mention in the reply to RMCA.
From Bologna to Parma you need one hour on the motorway. Matchguns is close to the university of Parma, close to the outer ring of the city, again 30 minutes from the motorway exit.
If you decide to have a go, arrange an appointment in due time.
Re: Grip Concerns
One of the details which I believe is different from what people usually say (and indeed other manufacturers) is related to the finger phalanges.rmca wrote:Can you give some examples of those things?therider wrote:Also some of the things he does are not according to the book....but they are simply better than the book!
If you carefully inspect a Matchguns grip, the middle phalanx is not exactly centred on the barrel axis. You can see this also in the pictures I posted of my lp 10 grip.
I think that he does this so that the wrinkle between the distal and middle phalanxes hooks in a sharp edge on the left side of the grip. So, for example the finger rests on the front of a Morini 162 grip are nearly simmetric with respect to the barrel and so is the inclination of the rests of the distal and proximal phalanges. However the rest of the distal phalange made by Cesare is nearl parallel to the barrel. That phalange is simply a kind of "hook".
I remember that when he did my lp10 grip he made that part 3 times, until he was satisfied that I had a "sharp" edge exactly in the wrinkle between the last 2 phalanxes.
I have to say that it really works, and it gives 100% repetitivity in the grip position.
This is my understanding....may be there are other reasons.