Pardini HP 32, ammo talk

[Dipnet]

I just buy my 62gr LSWCs from Travis Bullets (tbullets@peak.org); he sizes them at 0.314. When I first ordered from him, I naively asked if I could get the bullets sized at 0.3145, but that level of specialization is beyond the business Travis gets from casting and selling Oldcaster's bullet design for Pardini 32 ACP shooters. I helped my main hunting/fishing buddy cast lead fishing weights once and quickly figured out that I'd rather be fishing. Travis' LSWC bullets are less than half the price of the Hornady JHP bullet and based on load testing by many, more accurate.

Maybe Travis would send you a sampler or just buy a 100; you can use one of the bullets to mic your barrel. However, I suspect the 0.314 diameter will produce credible results for most Pardini shooters. Besides, bullet, case, and charge weight, I think OAL and crimp are important variables.

When loading bullets where powder charges vary from about 1.2 to 1.8 grains, small differences in bullet weight can have significant effects in accuracy. The only loading chore I do in front of the TV is sorting bullets into 0.30-gr lots, e.g., 61.7-62.0, 62.1-62.4, etc. Usually three weight lots covers about 85% of the bullets I buy.

The most important thing to doing well in the bullseye game is self confidence. Knowing that I've done all the work to make sure I have an accurate firearm, that the gun is properly sighted-in, and that my loads are accurate and consistent is the foundation upon which I endeavor to do my part. When I do that correctly, there is usually a hole in the 10-ring. Simple, but definitely hard to do consistently. Keeps me off the streets. Cheers our overseas colleagues, dipnet

[oldcaster]

Dave Wilson might but bear in mind that the new barrels have to have the original shroud or another new one added. I personally don't know how they are attached but I think Dave wrote once that they were glued. Perhaps they could be heated and removed but that is a rather experimental thing to be involved in without knowing the possible outcome. If you get in contact with Pardini in south Florida he may know whether this is possible but maybe he just gets the barrel assemblies from Europe and has no idea how they can be modified.

[wes lorenz]

After reading a ton of threads here on this (my head is still spinning), that really seems like the ideal solution...a custom smaller diameter .32acp barrel would allow one to shoot jacketed and cheaper lead bullets without having to resort to custom expanders and having basically two entirely different sets of dies and brass (one for jacketed and one for lead). Unfortunately, no one is making such custom .32acp barrels. Does anyone know of a barrel maker who would be willing to make such barrels for Pardinis?[/quote]

Dave made a barrel for my Erma using a .311 barrel and 10" twist Kreiger barrel that I purchased. I do not have any of the loading problems that you Italian shooters have, so it does work.

[sparky]

After reading a ton of threads here on this (my head is still spinning), that really seems like the ideal solution...a custom smaller diameter .32acp barrel would allow one to shoot jacketed and cheaper lead bullets without having to resort to custom expanders and having basically two entirely different sets of dies and brass (one for jacketed and one for lead). Unfortunately, no one is making such custom .32acp barrels. Does anyone know of a barrel maker who would be willing to make such barrels for Pardinis?

Dave made a barrel for my Erma using a .311 barrel and 10" twist Kreiger barrel that I purchased. I do not have any of the loading problems that you Italian shooters have, so it does work.[/quote]
Dave won't make any .32acp barrels; I asked.

[oldcaster]

I don't have any reason to shoot jacketed ammo. If you have to buy your lead bullets they might not work as well as casting your own though. Commercial bullets are always cast hard, mostly because they don't want them dinged up when shipped and because people think they are better because of what they have heard. I always have problems if I cast them bullets from hard alloy and learned from my mentors in the Army when I casted for them in the 60's to not use it.

[shootaholic]

G'day FC60,
I'm a Pistol Smith and so have been building PPC revolvers for about 30 years. I build on a model 67 smith with an Aussie made Pulver SS barrel which are extremely high quality, hardened and available in most twists up to 24.
We shoot an Australian Service match as well as WA1500 PPC, similar to yours but no restriction on ammunition. Virtually all shooters are using a 100gn SWC very similar to the Lee 105gn. We use these in our revolvers and 9mms, mostly STI Target Masters or Sig 226 PPCs.
Virtually no dedicated competition shooters in Aus use a waxed lube projectile, all commercial casters are coating their projectiles with a polymer type of coating that is baked on. I rarely need to clean my barrel and if I do I need to shoot off a mag full before a match.
The loading method will maybe surprise you, I use Federal 38 brass and seat the 100swcs almost halfway down the case which eliminates the excess air space which leads to more consistent powder burn and velocity.
Getting back on the 32acp thread, I have a Hammerli model 280 32S&W with a bulged barrel which will probably be my initial trial gun.
I've made contact with Dave a Corbins to order a set of ,314 swage dies including the nose punch to match Oldcasters 62gn swc as well as a hollow base punch and flat base punch. The main problem is getting 32 brass, it's just not available so far.
When all this comes together I'll post results
Cheers from Aus

[fc60]

G'Day Shootaholic,

Thanks for the update.

Do the polymer coated bullets shoot well at 50 yards? A lot of vendors offer them; but, I have not tested any. One reason is that most commercial casters offer bullets in bulk. When you cast your own, you control the quality.

On to the Haemmerli 280. Do you plan to redo the barrel in 32 ACP or 32 S&W Long? Early conversion of 32 S&W pistols to 32 ACP did not work out to well for me. One, you can still chamber a Long cartridge in an ACP chamber and operate the trigger. Two, the bolt recess for the case rims are different. Here, PardiniUSA, recognized this and had Pardini Italy machine special bolts for the 32 ACP only. These new bolts will not accept a 32 Long.

I did do a conversion to 32 ACP with my SP-20. All went well; but, I could not justify the expense of the jacketed bullets. Luckily, the magazines will accept and feed the 32 ACP.

Looking forward to your continued contribution on the Forum.

Cheers,

Dave

[oldcaster]

Dave, I shot some bullets that Tim on the website casted and had lubed with the spray on lube and then casted some of my own and had them spray lubed and when I tested them all for accuracy I could not tell the difference between any of them including those I lubed with alox 50/50 or Lars 2500.

[Dipnet]

Loading Savants,
What are your thoughts on crimp relative to accuracy? Besides holding bullets in place in semiautomatics, especially where magazines affect OAL, the most persuasive argument I've read is that a light crimp functions in creating more uniform starting pressures, offsetting variations in case thicknesses. In another thread discussing the 45 ACP Army Marksmanship Unit load, David Sams' recommended a very light crimp of 0.470-0.472 (versus often repeated 0.469) and showed a group less than an inch at 50 years (with a Ransom Rest). I realize he tests his barrels and returns those that aren't up to snuff.

I tried Dave's (fc60) variation of the 32 ACP load with OAL=0.885" and crimp=0.325" for the 62-gr LSWC bullets and found that formula to be so accurate that I've adopted as my standard load (R-P brass, Fed primers). In my pistol, I am unable to unload a chambered bullet with the 62 gr LSWC without pulling the bullet out of the casing. I don't know if that is true for the 0.325 crimp. If I chamber 'em, I have to shoot them, but I've never heard a RØ command shooters to unload). At the end of a string or the match, every gun is unloaded.

I would be interested in hear other's thoughts on crimp and it affects accuracy in lead and jacketed bullets. Thanks, dipnet

[oldcaster]

I think that a lot of "what to recommend" may be relevant to the individual gun. For one thing, when measuring the crimp on a bullet, normally someone will use a caliper. It won't jump to the next number until it is a full thousandths first off and second, even good calipers probably vary at least .0005 of an inch. In my Les Baer wad gun, (around 1990 vintage)I have to crimp my brass to .469 or it will catch on the edge of the crimp and peel it back enough to ruin the case. The rest of the 45's I have, (none are Bullseye guns) don't care and would probably feed if there were no crimp.

On my Benelli 32 long I have better results with a roll crimp while Dave has had good results with a taper. Probably if we spent enough time, both of us would be successful doing the opposite but there is no point unless you think you might improve results and or cause less stress to the brass. Whatever works the first time, we stick with, unless we think we can do better.

For the 32 ACP, I think a roll crimp would work but it would have to be pretty minimal because the bullet should headspace on the front edge of the brass. How much you can get away with is what you find while experimenting. Possibly you could get away with a smaller expander but of course this might cause inaccuracy and if it does, you need a whole new expander. Shooting small groups is possible with a lot of guns and loads unless you do it more than once and shoot 10 shots instead of 5. How many rifles have you seen where they guarantee minute of angle at 100 yards but it is only 3 shots.

[fc60]

Greetings,

When I was testing swaged bullets lubed with Lee Liquid Alox, the bullet was not staying in the case while seating. The Alox created an air seal such that the air in the case compressed and when I was not looking, the pressure pushed the bullet back out.

To stop this, I started using more taper crimp. I used 0.325" as measured at the case mouth and a smaller sizing die.

Results were encouraging as the groups actually were a bit smaller.

http://www.targettalk.org/viewtopic.php ... 60#p237252

http://www.targettalk.org/viewtopic.php ... 60#p237483

Bear in mind that the test groups were fired in a stock PardiniUSA barrel of 0.314" groove diameter and 1:450mm twist.

The secret is in loading quality ammunition.

Cheers,

Dave

Sent from my stone tablet using Tap A Rock

[Christopher Miceli]

when it comes to bullets and barrels, how tight or loose do you want it?

so the .311 groove barrel would i want a .311 or .314 bullet?

the hornady seems to work well with the factory pardini .314 barrel and its .311/.312

trying to learn stuffz that i could apply to my 45

thanks

[Rover]

Oversize works best in most barrels.

NRA recommends a roll crimp, even with a .45 which then headspaces on the bullet. It does that anyway, or on the extractor since the cases are usually too short to headspace on the front rim.

[fc60]

Greetings,

For my custom 32 S&W Long barrels with 0.311" groove diameter I test with the H&N 0.312" 100 grain bullet. I get 10-X groups at 50 yards via a machine fixture. The primary reason is that my chambers are "tight" and the 0.312" bullet fits the chamber well. I have shot 0.314" bullets; but, when the chamber gets dirty, the larger diameter of the loaded round increases the chance of a malfunction.

In the European factory barrels (0.313"-0.315" groove diameter), I use the H&N 0.314" 100 grain bullet and get similar results.

When I was an active shooter, I had a 0.309" barrel in my Haemmerli SP-20. I shot hand culled Speer bullets in it and my personal best was an 884. I think that was the day I broke 2600. Back then, Doc Young was still an active Bullseye shooter and we would exchange test data at the matches. I miss Doc as he inspired me to keep tinkering with the 32 WadCutter.

I would machine custom barrels with 0.308" groove diameter to use with the Speer HBWC bullet; but, I have to allow for folks wanting to shoot cast bullets and they are generally 0.312"+.

The Hornady bullet used to be 0.314". I never was able to get less than 10-ring accuracy with them at 50 yards. Hornady no longer catalog them and I suspect they have been discontinued. Speer are the only ones to offer a 32 HBWC bullet in the USA and they now label the box "Plinkers". Even Speer does not take us to seriously.

Rover's comment on the roll crimp for the 45ACP has merit. However, the 45ACP is a locked breech design and the headspace is controlled by the length of the chamber. The 32ACP is a straight blow-back design and the recent PardiniUSA barrels are chambered to ensure the mouth of the cartridge case is supported by the chamber ledge at the beginning of the leade. The 32ACP is actually a rimmed cartridge. I did machine a 32ACP barrel that head-spaced on the case mouth and it shot and functioned well. Then someone needed a barrel in a hurry so that experiment was rechambered to 32 S&W Long.

Cheers,

Dave

[Christopher Miceli]

Thanks Rover and Dave. I'm gonna slug my 45 barrel and find me some good 200lswc

[RMinUT]

Chris,
Dardas bullets in Michigan sells slugs to measure the barrel i.d. They also make quality bullets of several diameters. easy peezy

[oldcaster]

If you want to shoot hard bullets through your .45 buy 100 each of .451, 2, and 3 to see which is the best. Dardas has them in those sizes. For my Les Baer, the .451 was way better and the .453 was clearly the worse. If you are using swaged bullets, I think it is less important because they are softer but not as soft as the Star 185 swaged bullets that we all used years ago which seemed to give the best accuracy in just about everyone's gun. They measured between .450 and .451 and had a BHN of 5-6. For me, the softest bullets that I can still cast properly are definitely the most forgiving when it comes to getting accuracy even though they aren't exactly the right size and I think the smaller the bullet diameter the more important it is. The 32 ACP is probably as small as they are going to get. I would imagine that somebody here who is swaging bullets will hit on a really good 32 before too long. The only problem with this is the expense and difficulty of doing this but perhaps if it works well, someone will start to do it commercially.

[Bullseye26]

Who was that guy that won Perry using a .32? What year?

[hurt]

Our fine sponsor of Zero Bullets could surely make some good ones!!! I don't know if the demand would be high enough for their effort....but....I'm sure we would buy some for the 32ACP and some wadcutters for the 32 S&W long. I would LOVE to get some!

[fc60]

Greetings,

A while back, PardiniUSA was communicating with a vendor to produce swaged bullets for the 32 ACP.

Might give them a telephone call to see how things are progressing, or not.

Cheers,

Dave