Center fire 25m competition pistols

[Haleva]

Is it allowed to use standard 9mm semi auto pistol in this competition ? It does comply the caliber range (as far as i understand..) ?

I only saw .32 semi auto or .38 revolvers on the line and wonder under what rule the large shooter base of 9mm are not allowed on the line

[David Levene]

Providing they're using lead bullets and comply with the gun weight/dimension rules then they're are allowed.

[Gwhite]

There are a lot of reasons you don't see many 9mm pistols in use. Some of it is political/legal. It is apparently illegal for civilians to own military caliber pistols in some counties.

Many 9mm pistols also do not shoot as accurately as the .38 or .32. However, some of this is due to the standard 9mm bullet design. Even if you just make a lead version of the standard jacketed round, you won't shoot as well as the pistol is probably capable of. Years ago, the US Navy did a study and found that they could cut the group size of the 9mm service pistol almost in half by using a bullet with a slightly longer cylindrical bearing surface.

Although the 1911 .45 is still the preferred centerfire pistol for many shooters, there are plenty of people shooting the Beretta M9 in US "bullseye" competition. Presumably they have found out how to squeeze the maximum accuracy out of both the pistols and the ammo.

Another big issue is trigger pull. Because 9mm historically has been a defense/combat round, I'm not sure very many 9mm pistols have triggers that can be tuned down anywhere close to the 1000 gram ISSF centerfire limit. The M9 has a very heavy double action first-shot trigger pull, and then a lighter single action pull for subsequent rounds. I would think that would drive people nuts, although maybe you can cock it manually before the first shot.

[David M]

The 9mm just won't group well enough with lead projectiles.

[Gwhite]

There are bullseye shooters who claim the Beretta M9 can be tuned up to shoot even more accurately than a match 1911. I have no idea if that is true, or just how accurate that might be. If they shoot them for "service pistol", it would be with (presumably) the standard too-pointy 9mm metal jacketed bullet. Based on the Navy's research, I find it hard to believe that combination would be even close to what a good .38 revolver can do, right out of the box.

[David M]

You have to be careful when talking about "accuracy" as it varies greatly
from shooter to shooter and match to match.
After years of shooting and testing the best I have seen at both 25m and 50m
is a Manurhin Match revolver in .38 special shooting wadcutter's.
From a machine rest it punch's a 18mm hole (outside to outside), 6 shots at 25mm.

[Gwhite]

Exactly my point. There is also "inherent" accuracy vs "accessible" accuracy. Even if a 9mm could be made to shoot a one hole group from a rest, you'll never be able to shoot close to that with a creepy 5 pound trigger pull, an ill-fitting grip & poor sights.

[David M]

The closest I have to a competitive 9mm for Centrefire is a P210-5LS, 6" with a
aftermarket 1in18 twist lead barrel, 40mm group at 25m.
Not a common 9mm.....

[SamEEE]

The closest I have to a competitive 9mm for Centrefire is a P210-5LS, 6" with a
aftermarket 1in18 twist lead barrel, 40mm group at 25m.
Not a common 9mm.....

oh my

[cnnhead]

The gun qualifies (P210-6 9x19). Ammo unfortunately not (handload based on Hornady XTP 115gr, a jacketed projectile).
According to factory it can do even better. My control target shows 40mm group shot at the distance of 50m. Trigger pull is quite acceptable (3lbs), so the only issue is the right ammo.
Ah, and again - not a very common gun :-)

[David M]

The gun qualifies (P210-6 9x19). Ammo unfortunately not (handload based on Hornady XTP 115gr, a jacketed projectile).
According to factory it can do even better. My control target shows 40mm group shot at the distance of 50m. Trigger pull is quite acceptable (3lbs), so the only issue is the right ammo.
Ah, and again - not a very common gun :-)

The factory P210 will do that all day, but with jacketed ammo, its a different story with lead ammo.
Centrefire we cannot use jacketed ammo, must be soft lead or similar.
The factory did make a 6" lead barrel but it will only fit the 5" frame (barrel threaded for the old -5 model
not the LS).

[Tycho]

Any P210 will shoot well with copper plates H&N bullets, which count as "lead" under ISSF. And you can shoot them in the standard barrel, no problem as long as you're not loading to extensive speeds. The lead barrel is for the really soft stuff. We're even using the copper plated lead bullets in 7.65 Para, about 30 m/sec faster than the 9mm, at 50m, and no problems. The P210 doesn't like high speed ammo anyway, but will often shoot very well with slower or light-bullet loads. Back in the 60s, the Swiss national team was using P210s throughout even for CISM, and those guys knew what they were doing, they shot amazing results.

[j-team]

Any P210 will shoot well with copper plates H&N bullets, which count as "lead" under ISSF. And you can shoot them in the standard barrel, no problem as long as you're not loading to extensive speeds. The lead barrel is for the really soft stuff. We're even using the copper plated lead bullets in 7.65 Para, about 30 m/sec faster than the 9mm, at 50m, and no problems. The P210 doesn't like high speed ammo anyway, but will often shoot very well with slower or light-bullet loads. Back in the 60s, the Swiss national team was using P210s throughout even for CISM, and those guys knew what they were doing, they shot amazing results.

My standard P210-2 will shoot coated lead bullets just fine. Like you I've found lower velocity better, I'm using 145 or 150gr bullets and they are only doing about 850fps. At the moment, I'm using Topscore gold coated: http://www.topscore.com.au/

[David M]

Because I need 120 power factor for Service Pistol, I use a cast 125g SWC at 1050fps,
the light load is a cast lead 115g SWC at 850fps, recoil is less but the group is not as
good as the faster load.

[Rune Kanstad]

Back in the 60s, the Swiss national team was using P210s throughout even for CISM, and those guys knew what they were doing, they shot amazing results.

With anatomical grips, I assume?

[SamEEE]

I think this is a limited Swiss team run example. I can't recall where I found it these pictures.
Enjoy. Tycho, what does the Swiss German say?

Tycho, can you ship me one? A P49 will suffice. Plus an 1882 Ordinance revolver please!

[Tycho]

Yes, 60445 is one of the famous "Nationalmannschafts-SIG" (National Team SIG, called that since Doebeli's book in the early 80s). It's a HF, and the rear sight and the trigger are different from the normal production. Some of those guns have two screws securing the trigger, the one at the back, and one under the left hand grip. That factory group is actually not very good for a Heavy Frame P210 of that era, most of them shoot better than that, and it's not the barrel - my own 76*** 5" HF has a factory group around 1.5". Most "sport" shooters at the time used to long wooden grips (about 2cm longer than the ones mounted on 60445 here), or would modify them, but anatomical grips as we know them today were virtually unknown. I wonder if these wooden grips are the ones that were on the gun in 1967, most pics of the era show them with black plastic grips, or the long sport grip, these look like 70s production.

I know a guy who has a target framed on his wall, shot in 68 or 69 with such a P210 -> a 60 shot 50m match on the small target, same as free pistol, with 540 points ;-)

The first HF SIGs were made when the national team shooters started to complain about cracked frames, usually on the left rear side. We believe 54480 to be the first HF made, but that "HF" was actually the third frame with that number, after two cracked standard frames. Later guns were then built as HF from the beginning. I think Doebeli listed 46 or so guns as "Nationalmannschaft" with HF frames, but we've seen other pistols of that time with HF frames, so the list is probably not complete. One has to remember that you could get almost anything built in Neuhausen if you knew the right people.

Text says that the gun was delivered to H+R in Zurich on 29 July 1970, according to Mr. R. Freiermuth of SIG.

1882 revolvers are a dime a dozen nowadays ;-) P49 dito, but the early HF 210s are still very expensive.

[Leon]

Here are my two 210-5s.

Both have the factory lead barrel fitted ( "bleilauf").

Both were purchased NIB from Switzerland - The one on the right is still unfired and fitted with ortho grips directly from the factory - the one on the left has had nor more than 25 rounds through it...

BTW - the pictures of the 210-5 in preceding posts are from swissdagger.com - where it was listed for sale.

[j-team]

The one on the right is still unfired and fitted with ortho grips directly from the factory - the one on the left has had nor more than 25 rounds through it...

Why??? Are you keeping them in good condition for when the government confiscates them, so they look good going into the crusher? I'm kinda hoping that my P210 is worn out when I'm finished with it!

[Rover]

+1