Buy a tuner or not?

[Bryan996]

Looking for advice from people who use tuners.

I've attached two targets I shot yesterday at 100 yards, Lapua Midas +. Looking at the group size do you think I'd benefit from using a Starik tube?

thanks Bryan

[jhmartin]

I think a good first step is to get a manufactured lot of ammo that shoots better in your rifle.
THEN work on it with a tuner if you need one.

[Bryan996]

I already have, the Midas+ was selected from the best they had on the day, grouped at about 13mm at 50m. The groups in the photo's were shot at 100yds not 50m.

THEN work on it with a tuner if you need one.

Thats exactly the question do I need one? I can't decide if the group size could be improved with a tuner as its fairly round and im not sure if its showing any evidence of vertical stringing over normal distribution. Looking for advice from those who use a tuner and have experience of the results before and after.

thanks

[Anschutz]

Go back to jhmartin's post above.

Midas+ is only one type ammo, and I think (without looking it up) Lapua comes in one velocity per type.

Eley Match and Tenex shoots best in my rifle with many choices of velocities/lots. And I do have a bee sting tuner — but that came - later - - .

[Bryan996]

Please forget the ammo, I've done the batch testing and this batch of Lapua tested the best from about 12 different lots. Once it runs out I'll drive to Birmingham and test with Eley but the Lapua beat RWS in testing. I've also not had great results testing Eley from the shoulder.

What I'm trying to work out is can I gain improvements on this group with a tuner and if so what could I expect? ANSCHUTZ - if you use a bee sting, why? What did you gain? Was your rifle stringing shots vertically?

Thanks

[jhmartin]

Midas+ is only one type ammo, and I think (without looking it up) Lapua comes in one velocity per type.

Bryan .... please forgive the off topic note.

--> Anschutz - Each lot of Lapua will have different velocities, just like Eley .... Center-X and Midas+ lots I've tested run the gamut of (usually) 1068 to 1082 fps ... There is a calc based on the 1st 3 numbers of the lot number .... I cannot remember the formula right off the bat.
Polar Biathalon is much peppier ... about 1099fps as I recall.

BTW I think that w/o those 3 9's on your targets you are getting about what an untuned rifle will get with that Lapua you have. Rough estimate of what I've seen is take your "worst" group with that lot and multiply by 2 and add 1-2mm. I'm assuming you are testing out of the shoulder.

Here in the USA we test Lapua at a facility (Mesa) that has Meyton targets at both 50m and 100m, so with the same shots/groups we get data on both distances. That testing is out of a return-to-battery vise setup

[efoleyjr]

Looking for advice from people who use tuners.

I've attached two targets I shot yesterday at 100 yards, Lapua Midas +. Looking at the group size do you think I'd benefit from using a Starik tube?

thanks Bryan

Bryan,
YES, get a Guy Starik tuner. I shoot Lapua also and I have center X and Midas+ that will shoot vertical groups half the size of yours after tuning with a Starik tuner. You are showing vertical in your groups because of tune. Good ammo tuned correctly should shoot 10 shot vertical groups in the 14-17mm range at 100 yds.
Ed

[Anschutz]

Midas+ is only one type ammo, and I think (without looking it up) Lapua comes in one velocity per type.

Bryan .... please forgive the off topic note.

--> Anschutz - Each lot of Lapua will have different velocities, just like Eley .... Center-X and Midas+ lots I've tested run the gamut of (usually) 1068 to 1082 fps ... There is a calc based on the 1st 3 numbers of the lot number .... I cannot remember the formula right off the bat.
Polar Biathalon is much peppier ... about 1099fps as I recall.

BTW I think that w/o those 3 9's on your targets you are getting about what an untuned rifle will get with that Lapua you have. Rough estimate of what I've seen is take your "worst" group with that lot and multiply by 2 and add 1-2mm. I'm assuming you are testing out of the shoulder.

Here in the USA we test Lapua at a facility (Mesa) that has Meyton targets at both 50m and 100m, so with the same shots/groups we get data on both distances. That testing is out of a return-to-battery vise


Hey thanks. Just didn't know. setup

[patriot]

Bryan, maybe I missed it but what rifle are you shooting?

Ed is correct, with good ammo you should expect 10 shot groups inside one inch at 100 without a tuner. You could also try adjusting the receiver bolt torque before you buy a tuner.

Mark

[illinoisshooter12]

I am a new, true believer of tuning a rifle to fit your ammo. Stop wasting money. Here is a quick story. For our son, we bought a 1/2 case of 10X that was tested by the seller because it looked great from their test. But, when he shot it in competition the first time at a national championship - it shot terrible. Couldn't find the 10 for nothing.

A couple weeks after that, we attended a clinic in which George said: if you don't test your ammo, don't expect to win the match. He described how he tunes his rifle for new ammo. We took that to heart.

Then, using the steel bloop tube as the tuner, we tested multiple lots of ammo across two brands - increasing the torque on the tube for each round of test (recording the lot number, torque setting and diameter of the fired group). You could see the diameter of the shots for each lot coming closer and closer, until those boxes of Eley 10X and Match both formed a 10.6mm diameter. The other brand was doing well also, but interestingly enough dropped off the cliff near the end of the torquing exercise.

The end of the story - a couple of weeks after that, our son won a NRA Metric Prone Regional match, with very strong scores- better than he ever shot.

What I learned is maybe any brand ammo will work decently (some better than others), but the rifle just needs tuned to it. Now we have torque settings for at least two brands and four types of ammo (understanding specific lots will perform differently over time).

TUNE IT. - especially if it is expensive ammo - otherwise you are wasting very good money.

[patriot]

I am a new, true believer of tuning a rifle to fit your ammo.

I never did understand trying lots within a brand to tune the rifle. That approach seemed sub-optimal, particularly when the barrelled action is shot out of a machine rest or the rifle off a bench when it will be used in prone. Some rifles do seem to prefer one brand over another, may be the chamber design or bore dimensions, but after I find the best lot using the chronograph I then tune the rifle.

Mark

[Tim S]

Bryan,

For the benefit of of our US Friends, were you shooting irons or 'scope? Is that the new Truflite?

Everyone else,

For reference, that is the NSRA 100 yard target, which is proportional to the ISSF 50m (adjustment is made for greater dispersion at 100y). n The 10-ring is 1.04in (26.48mm), and the X-ring is a fraction under 0.5in. On US NRA targets with a 2in 10-ring, only the high shot on the second target would make a nine. I'd say the elevation for 19 of the 20 shots is about 1inch, ignoring that one high shot, which could be operator error if shot with irons.

[GeraldC]

20 yard with Starik tuner.10 shots in each hole.My rifle has never grouped like that before i fitted the tuner.

[Bryan996]

Thanks for the replies, let me fill in a few blanks.

This is an Anschutz 54 action thats been fitted with a truflite barrel (good memory Tim) and is fitted in a precise stock. The barrel has now had 2640 rounds through it. I bought Lapua as Eley didn't recommend batch testing with them until I'd reached 2000 rounds but I had competitions to do and needed ammo and Lapua were offering free batch testing local to me. I bought some Midas+ and centre X. I was visiting another club on sunday specifically to sight in at 100 yards for a comp I have next month and shot both the Midas and the centre X, the Midas was clearly the better performer as you'd expect. I'm also confident that the barrel has improved since around 1500 rds.

The targets were shot from the shoulder with iron aperature sights. I started reflecting on the targets when I got home as I dont often shoot at 100 yds (once a year) and I think the group pattern reveals more than 50 yards does. I recently came fifth in a comp with a score of 611.9, the winner scored 626.4 (UK's top .22 shooter Kenny Parr) but silver was 618.9. That score gave me an average of 10.2, if I could have scored an average of 10.32 I'd have taken silver! That leads me to thinking about all the possible options to improve and tighten up my groups. Hence the tuner.

I haven’t really considered testing torque settings like I did in my old wooden stock as I was under the impression that there was little to gain in an aluminium stock? I always torque the action to 5.5Nm but I’ve been told my torque wrench under reads by 0.5nM so it could be at 6Nm. But either way it is always consistent.

illinoisshooter12 - are you saying you increased the torque on the bloop tube clamp rather than the action? What torque setting did you settle on? The bolts in my grunig extension tube aren't big enough to start experimenting with an increased clamping force.

GeraldC- Thats exactly what I'm after, do you have photo's of the group pattern without the tuner fitted?

[casadehusker]

For what it's worth.

My rifle is an Annie 1913. I batch tested Center X here in Mesa at the Lapua center. Action was in the stock (wood) and clamped in their fixture. Best was 12.5 @50, which came out to 28.2 @ 100.

Put on a Starik tuner. Me shooting prone/sling with a scope I was able to get 10.8 mm @ 50. Did not measure the 100 target but I was using the NRA 100 yd target with the X ring is what 25 mm. The group was one ragged hole, none touching the lines, so under 25 mm. At shooting was at an outdoor range.

Certainly not scientific and not definitive.............I am an NRA Conventional Prone Expert...haven't made Master yet, so that gives a bit about my ability, or lack of........but I was very happy with the out come of putting the tuner on. Closed down vertical stringing to consistent ragged hole groups.

Once I achieved the above numbers I was happy and did not test any further.

Again for what it's worth, just what I experienced.

[Bryan996]

For what it's worth.

My rifle is an Annie 1913. I batch tested Center X here in Mesa at the Lapua center. Action was in the stock (wood) and clamped in their fixture. Best was 12.5 @50, which came out to 28.2 @ 100.

Put on a Starik tuner. Me shooting prone/sling with a scope I was able to get 10.8 mm @ 50. Did not measure the 100 target but I was using the NRA 100 yd target with the X ring is what 25 mm. The group was one ragged hole, none touching the lines, so under 25 mm. At shooting was at an outdoor range.

Certainly not scientific and not definitive.............I am an NRA Conventional Prone Expert...haven't made Master yet, so that gives a bit about my ability, or lack of........but I was very happy with the out come of putting the tuner on. Closed down vertical stringing to consistent ragged hole groups.

Once I achieved the above numbers I was happy and did not test any further.

Again for what it's worth, just what I experienced.

Thanks for the feedback. Did it take long to 'tune'?

[illinoisshooter12]

illinoisshooter12 - are you saying you increased the torque on the bloop tube clamp rather than the action? What torque setting did you settle on? The bolts in my grunig extension tube aren't big enough to start experimenting with an increased clamping force.

Definitely - we torqued the bloop tube to tune - in lieu of using a tuner. This tube is steel and could handle the torque. Torquing the tube made more difference than the action screws did. After we found a great setting for the tube, we adjusted the action screws to see the change. In this case, the 6N-M on the action we had it set at originally was perfect. Note, the rifle is a 2013 with ALU stock.

Speaking with others, my understanding is if you have a tube that can handle the torque (i.e. not an aluminum tube), you use it to tune rather than a tuner. If you don't have a tube or one strong enough to handle it, get a tuner.

[casadehusker]

Thanks for the feedback. Did it take long to 'tune'?




Guessing I was done in less than 1 hour.

I shot 5 shot groups and then had a buddy turn the tuner ring 1 turn and fired again, so I didn't have to get out of position. I also never tuned finer than whole revolutions. So I still have some room for testing. And maybe I just got luck, but again was very happy with the numbers and groups I achieved.

Whole process was easy and straight forward.

[groverdog1]

All,

I do not believe using a tuner will hurt you.

My preference is to test lots at 50 and 100 with the tuner in place and set to "zero". I most recently did this in Mesa AZ at the Lapua test center. After testing a dozen or so lots I purchased the lot that shot the best test groups at 100 yds which by the way was not the best lot at 50. Note the testing was done out of the stock but I did not see any dilution in grouping performance when shooting out of the sling. When I started playing with the tuner settings on my Upta tuner I was in position using a scope and I saw nice round 100 yard groups after only 3 revs on the tuner and stopped. ( I think the 3 revs extended the weights out appx 15 thousandths of an inch.) The tuner was cut to PRX length as well.

I believe that for $75 or so, the folks in Mesa will take the lot that tested best and then "tuner test" that lot ultimately searching for the best tune. As most of my matches are conventional prone style, so having solid 100 yard grouping feedback is important. I could only find these services at the Lapua facility. Eley (in the USA) does not currently test at 100, only at 50. Note too I cannot hit a barn using a bench to test.

I was told that to be competitive, you need a 3/4 inch gun so my standard is to find a lot that shoots as "round" as possible without exceeding .75".

Hope this helps...Good Luck and Good shooting

Mark DelCotto

[kevin nevius]

All:

This is just my very humble opinion on the subject.........

Any tuner, be it an adjustable mass device or overall length based extension tube (or combination of the two) is only a means to fine tune the system. The rifle (as a system) must be optimized or all you are accomplishing is turning big groups into slightly smaller big groups. No tuner or extension tube is a cure-all, and they certainly are not a remedy for all of the other accuracy robbing issues the rifle as a system might have (bedding issues, mechanical or machining errors, barrel quality or lack of adequate lot testing).

To complicate things, I have found that testing a barreled action "naked" and then adding a tuner mass or extension (or both) is also unreliable. Adding that much mass or length seems to be to great a change, and in my testing and rifle development has never worked out well.

So, what I do is similar to Mark's methodology........I set the rifle up with the exact same mass / weight (front sight on), and extension tube arrangement I intend to use in competition (with the tuner mass set to a mid-range position). I lot test, and do any other rifle based tuning (action screw torque etc..) and look for good accuracy - something in the 12mm range outside edge, over a 50 shot aggregate at 50 meters. Personally, if I don't see any potential at this point, I re-crown, set the rifle up again and re-test. I have found the position of the crown instrumental in the development of good baseline accuracy.

After the system shows potential, use the manipulation of the tuner to fine tune group size even smaller.

Regarding the original post (these comments are based on my own proficiency only), it would be really dicey to say a tuner would make any difference - especially considering the use of irons. Your rifles mechanical accuracy is only about 20% of the equation - the other 80% is your hold, your eyesight, and your ability to read conditions. These are good targets IMHO.........I would take them most days in pretty good conditions!! I have found that I gain more reduction in group size just working on hold and aperture size that I ever will trying to ring out another 1mm from an aggregate group size - but that's just me.

And I fully realize that to be competitive on the National or Olympic stage, mechanical accuracy must be as close to zero as we can obtain to be competitive (the margins are SO small) - so please don't flame me too badly.

Another consideration (now that I am rambling on and on) is weight. Some people - including me - can ill afford another few ounces out on the end of the barrel where the effects from a fatigue standpoint are maximized. Sometimes we add something like this, get some accuracy benefit, and lose it all at the end of the string due to increased movement from fatigue.

Sorry to ramble - thanks for starting the thread!

kev

PS - as I mentioned, I would take a 197 @ 100 yards on that target any day of the week (and twice on Sundays!! LOL)