Pardini HP 32, ammo talk

[oldcaster]

The reason people can have better results with Linotype is because fillout of a mold is easier. This is all well and good but when you have a hard bullet, exact sizing according to your individual barrel is way more critical. What works in one barrel may not work in another. When using a relatively soft alloy, size is quite a bit more forgiving and leading is less likely and easier to clean. The procedure for molding a bullet with a softer alloy is way more involved but when you get the hang of it, there aren't many problems.

When casting with a soft alloy, the amount of tin present is quite important because they just won't cast well no matter what if it is deficient. An alloy of wheel weights and any other kind of soft lead like 22 rimfire taken out of a range mixed half and half will be fine. You might even be able to go more soft lead to wheel weights and still get away with it. If you pick up the typical bullets out of the dirt left at a range, most likely your alloy will be fairly hard unless a lot of commercial swaged bullets are present. Even most of todays swaged bullets have a BHN of around 10 which is close to what is wanted. Those hard bullets though for the most part have a lot of tin and antimony in them so at least half soft lead should be added and there will still be enough tin. Another pure lead that is available is roof sheeting, x-ray sheeting and the lead on old houses that surrounds the plumbing pipes coming out of the roof or the plumbing pipes themselves.

When casting small bullets like we are talking about here, it is necessary to pressure pour if using soft lead. This procedure requires you to get your temperature to around 700 degrees and set your furnace so the stream coming out is not very fast. You do not want to see a solid stream 2 inches or more when you pull the handle but it should be solid for an inch to inch and a half before it turns to dribbles. The reason for this is because if lead slams into a mold too rapidly dirt will also go in and not have the chance to float to the top. If you are too fast, you sometimes will see the bubbles of dirt on the base possibly covered just slightly by a skim of lead and it will be obvious if you dig at it with a pin.When the lead goes in slowly, the dirt will float to the top and go into the sprue.

Place the mold onto the spout of the furnace and pull the handle while watching until it is obvious that the mold if full. You will see just a bit of lead almost squirt out around where the mold and furnace are connected. If it isn't obvious, just count to whatever time is necessary. Usually 2 seconds. When the 2 seconds are up, let the mold drop about 1/2 of an inch and move it forward slightly while still holding the handle to get a sprue and not have lead fall into the next cavity. Go to the next cavity and repeat. After the 2 seconds, drop the mold 1/2 inch and move the mold forward so the two sprue puddles connect. Finish up all the cavities and wait until the puddle has cooled to open the mold. Sometimes it is necessary to slow down and wait for the sprue to solidify although with such a small bullet, it may not be necessary. If when you cut the sprue, it shatters or crumbles, you need to slow down because if you don't, you will develop smears on the top of the mold and bottom of the sprue plate. If this happens, clean immediately and slow down. If you have to slow down too much, dropping your temperature will probably work also but there is a limit as to how far you can go.

When using this method, how deep the lead in the pot is matters because too deep or too fast will make lead squirt out of your connection. Personally I go with around 2 1/2 to 3 inches with the 32 mold but it will vary with others depending on the quality of the mold. If you let the level get too low, the flow will get too slow so I have a separate pot with lead already melted so I can add lead with a dipper every couple of hundred of these bullets which is around 2 pounds. You don't want your cadence to get interrupted. It is possible to go 4 or 5 pounds of lead at a time without adding but you will have to constantly adjust the flow as your pot gets lower and that is a pain.

One of the biggest problems with molding bullets like this is that when the spout is pouring slowly, it will clog easier and you have to constantly keep it clean. I often hit the spout sideways with a pliers about every 50 rounds or when I notice anything changing and once in a great while, I have to stick something up the spout to clean it. If it is pouring fast, you won't notice the accumulation in the spout but your bullets won't be as good.

[fc60]

Greetings All,

When casting with a 32 ACP four cavity mould, I noticed that some of my bullets were not round "as cast". Further investigation revealed that when using a soft alloy, the force needed to shear the sprue away was compressing the bullet base underneath making the bullet egg shaped only on the base driving band.

A future solution is to machine a new sprue plate with smaller holes, reducing the shear forces. (Old Saeco moulds have small sprue plate holes on some designs.)

The factory sprue plate appears to be a "one size" fits all.

LinoType, being harder, does not compress as much and the bullets exit the mould fairly round.

Isn't casting fun??? Makes you want to buy a swaging press.

Cheers,

Dave

[Trooperjake]

What Dave found is what T & G found.
He emailed me that he found his casts out of round and was suspending production
of the 32-60, till he works it out with Accurate Molds.

[oldcaster]

Two things cause this. One is not having the mold up to temperature and the other is opening the sprue plate too abruptly. A smaller hole will benefit but the average caster that doesn't pressure pour will have problems using them.

The temperature has to be between having problems with smearing lead on the sprue plate, (too hot) and the sprue plate needing excessive force to open it, ( too cold). Out of round bullets occur with all molds from this situation but a bullet as small as the 32 is more noticeable.

When it is possible I use a gloved hand or a pliers to open a mold because then it isn't so abrupt.

[jbzeus]

T&B had problems with his standard alloy and softer ones.

[fc60]

Greetings All,

More casting clues...

The four cavity Accurate Mold sprue plates are machined to accept the Lee six-cavity sprue plate handle. I find it very useful to attach a cammed handle to open the sprue plate.

My alternate method is to support the side of the mould on a block of wood and give the sprue plate a clean hit with a one pound Lead Hammer.

By the way, Lead Hammer moulds and handles are available from McMaster Carr.

http://www.mcmaster.com/#hammer-molds/=106nqsg

Cheers,

Dave

[gitkrunk]

Looking to buying the 32acp pardini but have no desire to load lead. What is the go to 50yards and 25 yard loads ?

Thanks
Chris

[Trooperjake]

Hornady XTP 60HP
VV N310. 1.8 gr
RP, Win, Starline Brass
CCI SPP
.330 taper crimp
.894 OAL.

[tomv]

I just got a 32 ACP conversion for my Pardini HP and started to handload for it. I've loaded the Hornady 60 gr JHP bullet with no issues and good results. Then I tried the TB SWC lead bullet and made 100 of those at 0.880 COAL based on data I've seen on this forum. The first round that I function tested chambered and locked the bolt solidly in place. Impossible for me to open the bolt by hand to eject that round. I had to take the barrel off the frame and then tap the round out with a wooden dowel to get things apart.

I then made some dummy rounds at different seating depths and found that 0.855 was the maximum OAL that my barrel will take without the bullet jamming in the rifling. At this length there is .010" or less of the bullet which projects past the case mouth.

My barrel slugs at 0.3138" - 0.3139", the bullets mic at .314" and I'm using new Starline brass crimped at .332.

Has anyone else run into this?

Tom

[gwpotte]

Yes, I have experienced the same thing. With T&B bullets, I load them such that the full diameter of the bullet portion sticks out past the mouth of the case about the thickness of my thumbnail (or about .010). Any more and the bullet jams into the rifling and it takes some force to reopen the bolt / action after chambering a bullet. The COAL for my T&B loads is .854 to .855.

It works well for me.

[oldcaster]

It may be because of the hardness of the T&B bullet. Others may have used a softer alloy and consequently it could engrave the rifling without sticking in them.

[tomv]

I'm at 1.6 gr of N310 for the .880 coal. Any recommendations for .855? I haven't had a chance to chrono these yet but I understand that 750 to 775 fps is the sweet spot for accuracy. Is that correct?

[oldcaster]

I'm at 1.6 gr of N310 for the .880 coal. Any recommendations for .855? I haven't had a chance to chrono these yet but I understand that 750 to 775 fps is the sweet spot for accuracy. Is that correct?

I doubt that much seating depth difference will matter enough to change the necessary amount of powder. That velocity is a good place to start from and is likely to give you good results but I wouldn't doubt that each gun may act differently in which load or powder it likes better because some peoples guns liked my loads and others didn't. One load that was mentioned was 1.15 of Tite Wad which gave exceptional accuracy for another but not for me. I finally gave up on Tite Wad though I didn't want to because I expected it to be cleaner in the long run and I had quite a bit of it. One pound would have lasted most people a lifetime.

[gwpotte]

Last summer I used 1.6gr of VV N310 for my COAL of .854 to .855 with T&B bullets with good results, plus I did not need to change my sights between 50 yards and 25 yards (with 1.7 gr or higher, I needed to lower my sights at 50 yards). However, as I got better with my 32 ACP I ended up adjusting the elevation 1 click between 50 and 25yards. This winter I went with 1.5gr of VV N310 for 50 foot indoor league with good results. I plan to try 1.5gr this summer for outdoor. If the results are good at 50 yards and no sight adjustment between 50 and 25 yards (like my 22) is needed, I will stay with 1.5gr VV N310. Otherwise, I will go back to 1.6gr VV N310 for outdoor.

By good results, I mean my loads will hold inside the 10 ring at 50 yards using a sandbag for a rest and a non magnified red dot sight.

Also note, I have a Dillon 550 reloader with an Arredondo extra small powder bar. I have been unable to get it to drop less than 1.5gr of VV N310 consistently.

One other thing I do when reloading that I think helps with accuracy is to use a Lyman M die type neck expander in .313 or .314. The Lyman M die type expander has two steps with the second step being .004 larger which allows you to set the bullet straight in the case mouth before inserting with your insertion die, unlike a bevel expansion which often has the bullet cocked slightly to one side when you set it on top of the case mouth. Unfortunately, Lyman no longer makes a 32P expander plug for their Lyman M die expander, which is .313 for the first step and .317 for the second. However NOE Bullet Moulds makes a 32P pistol expansion plug (.313 X .317) that goes in a Lee Universal Expander die. NOE Bullet Moulds also makes a .314 X .318 expansion plug but it is listed in their rifle expansion plugs. It is a little longer in the first step, but still works. To make the Lee Universal Expander die work well with the short 32 ACP case, you need to machine (bore out) the inside of the die to drop the expander plug about 1/4 of an inch further in the Lee Universal Expander die. A very easy thing for a machinist (or hobby machinist friend) to do. Plus if you go with the .314 X.318 rifle expander, you can have the machinist simply round off the nose on the expander plug so the first step is the same length as the first step on the .313 X .317 pistol expander plug from NOE.

[tomv]

oldcaster and gwpotte,
Thank you for your help. I appreciate it.

gwpotte,
I am also using a Dillon 550 b with the same Arendondo powder slide and micrometer adjustment that you are. I'm using the standard Dillon powder funnel to bevel the case for bullet insertion. Does the Lyman tool replace the Dillon powder funnel? I've used the Dillon long neck funnel / expander for 32 SWL with good results but I'm not familiar with any of the Lyman expanders.
Tom

[oldcaster]

I am using an expander that I made myself that is .3138 and is a length that expands .250 deep when I get the proper flare on the front of the case. The tapered expander doesn't do anything at all that is needed. The reason mine is .3138 and not .314 is because that is what it came out to when I was aiming at .314 and it worked well enough that I didn't make another. Anyone can make one with a lathe.

If you use a sizing die that doesn't size the cases so tightly it is easier to expand the cases and also it won't work the brass so much. Lee has one that is .002 oversize and if you use an FDC for case sizing it is even larger but I don't know how much because I don't have one and only know this information because I read somewhere on this site that Dave Wilson (FC60) has one.

Are you guys using the plastic Arendondo or the metal one. I use the plastic and while I don't use N310 I am surprised to hear that it won't go below 1.5 grains.

[tomv]

I'm using the plastic one. Its extremely accurate at 1.6 gr and above, about +- 2 milligrams which is about +- 0.03 grains. I haven't used it below that weight yet so I don't know how it behaves there.

[gwpotte]

Oldcaster;
I am using the plastic Arendondo powder bar. It will adjust to well below 1.5gr of VV N310, but below 1.5 the consistency between charges starts to vary about .05gr or more which is a lot with 1.5gr or less charges. I tried UniqueTek's powder baffle and that allowed me to go down to 1.4gr consistently. How do I determine that with a scale (Dillon electronic) that only has .1gr accuracy you may ask. I simply add a charge at a time to my scale and see how the weights progress for 5 to 10 charges. 1.5 then 3.0 then 4.5 then 6.0 then 7.5 then 9.0 then 10.5 then 12 then 13.5 then 15 for example is very good. After the first three charges, a variance of up to .1 from these numbers (and ending up between 14.9 and 15.1 after 10 charges) is acceptable to me. Anything more is not.

Tomv.
I also have a Dillon 550 B press. The Lyman M type expander die and the NOE Bullet Mould Expander plugs for the Lee Universal are solid and not powder through dies. They are in addition to (and before), not a replacement for the powder funnel die on the 550. Now you ask how do you get 5 stations on a Dillon 550 B which only has 5. The answer is buy a second toolhead. In you first tool head, put your sizing / decaying / priming die in the first position, and the Lee Universal Expander die in the second position. In the second toolhead, leave the first position empty, your powder assembly in the second, bullet insertion die in the third position, and taper crimp die in the fourth position. I then use the first toolhead to run a batch of brass through to size, prime, and expand. I then switch toolheads and load (at a later time too if I wish) load the batch of already primed and expanded brass.

Since the 32ACP case is so small, the tolerances are small too. Now for some more info on what works for me to tighten up the tolerances on the Dillon 550 B. For toolheads, I use UniqueTek's (http://www.uniquetek.com) CNC Machined 550 toolhead with clamp kit preinstalled. This toolhead is machined truer and the clamp kit holds the toolhead firmly in place (no slight up and down movement). I also use UniqueTek's turbo bearing which takes the flex out of the shell plate on the Dillon 550. Plus I use the Arendondo extra small powder bar from UniqueTek.

For dies, I agree with Oldcaster that you you want an oversized expander die so you do not overwork the brass. I have a .003 oversized Lee sizing die. A standard 32ACP sizing die is .329. My Remington brass sidewall thickness is about .01. So a .314 bullet plus 2 X .01 (a brass sidewall on each side) is .334. So a .332 (.329 + .003) seemed about right to me, as your brass likely springs back a little to .333 after sizing to 332. I use a Hornady insertion die with micrometer. I use a Redding taper crimp die.

If you are expanding new brass for the first time, I would do that in two or three steps. .311 on the first pass (32 AP plug from NOE Bullet Moulds), .313 on the second pass, and .314 on the third. After the rounds have been fired, there is no need to expand to .311 again as they are already larger than that size.

Hope this helps.

[tomv]

gwpotte,
I just measured some of my new Starline brass cases. They measure .3312 to .3315 OD and .3085 ID. I measured the OD with a Mic so that measurement is within a tenth or so. The ID measured .3085. I used a digital caliper for the ID which isn't the best method but I'd guess I'm pretty close on that. I have access to some precision plug gauges and will get better measurement on ID later today. Using these data I get .0114 as case wall thickness.

Since these cases drop right into my Pardini chamber is it really necessary to size them at all?
If I understand the process I would start with new brass, expand them using .311 and .313 NOE 32 AP plugs; then prime and use a modified Lee universal expander with NOE .314 X .318 expander plug with rounded nose. Then I would change the toolhead and finish loading as normal starting with the powder stattion. I assume that its not necessary to bevel the end of the case with the powder funnel.

For fired brass I would use the same process but start with an oversize Lee sizer / decapper die and skip the .311 expander step.

I've already added the Turbo Bearing, CNC toolhead and Hornady micrometer bullet seating die to my press. I like using them very much. As things turn out I'll only end up using the crimping die from my Redding die set.

How does this sound.

Thanks to all of you for all the help.
Tom

[tomv]

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