the problem with flyers....

[97nick]

Hi folks,

I am shooting well, better than I have before ever, but I have a problem with flyers. its pretty regular, one out of five, and they go all round the clock, but mostly at 2, 4, 8, and 10 o'clock.

it is sometimes my trigger pull, but mostly it is when my gun will stray off the bull and in the middle of my trigger pull. the gun goes off and presto, flyer!

it can be any shot out of the five, and with a scope to check my shots i can pinpoint the problem shot, but unfortunately there is no pattern to them.

anyway, my plan to rid myself of them is as follows:

1. my stance is very straight to the target, which I am able to hold very steady, but some times I feel "stretched" and I think this may be giving me a muscle twitch which is trowing the gun, so I will now get into my stance, then move my feet to very slightly angle myself so my arm is at a very small angle rather than dead straight.
this is less steady for me so will take a lot of work so I am not expecting results quickly. I have been training this for five days so far, and will shoot 8 targets tomorrow at the range.
I will keep this up for three weeks and see if there is any difference. even if my groups are bigger, if the flyers are less I will stick to it.

2. if after three weeks no improvement, I will try only firing two shots with maximum concentration, then put the gun down and start again after each two.

3. if still no improvement I will remove the weights (I have them at the muzzle) and see if that makes any difference.

4. if still no improvement I will again alter my stance, to a 45 degree one.

if anyone has any other suggestions please let me know!

[siordian1]

move over, I am in the same boat. I shoot strings of 10, I have gotten to the point of 1 maybe 2 out of the 9 ring. I find it's just concentration.

[dulcmr-man]

I guess it's all relative. I'd take any of those groups WITH the flyers. My flyers generally run into the 8, 7, and 6 rings with an occasional 5. Yuck!! I'm new to air pistol and still cruising around in the mid to high 80s, with an occasional foray into the low 90s. Looks like I have a lot of work to do. I'm watching with interest to see what the more skilled shooter's advice might be.

Dennis
Palmdale, CA

[Spencer]

Step 1 - eliminate the pistol/ammunition combination as a problem - your pistol/ammunition combiunation should hold the inner-10 ring.
Step 2 - get a coach

[97nick]

its not the pistol, I can call the shot I take as the flyer, and have tried different pistols etc.

looking forward to the range tonight, but not expecting anything great as I am knackered Lol. I will post the targets and an update if I am not too embarrassed...

[David Levene]

If you're calling the flyers and explaining them as being caused by the gun straying off the bull then it sounds like you need to improve your fitness (arm/shoulder and core muscles).

[Gwhite]

When do they occur during a string? Randomly, or always the first or last shot? I've seen a lot of people regularly screw up the last shot of a good group because they start thinking about the lovely group they have going instead of their shot process. Or, they are shooting too fast for their arm to recover fully from the first four shots.

The fact that they aren't in a uniform direction suggests it's not a grip or triggering problem.

[97nick]

I agree I do need to improve fitness, but I do train and have done for a long time, a 12 card shoot is not a problem. that said I have started a more intensive program and I do need to get fitter!

any hoo, hows that for pressure? shooting 8 cards and telling the world I am going to post them?! lol (well, there must be at last 10 people on here anyway!)
the new stance worked very well, my shoulder felt better and no clicking sounds now. I shot well in the main, but didn't shoot as well in the last two cards.

flyer count 3: 1 on the 2nd card, shot no 1, at 11 oclock.
1 on the 7th card, shot no 1, at 5 oclock,
1 on the 8th card, 5th shot, at 8 oclock.
this is a big improvement, but I also count in the psychological factor in that I was really concentrating! once I get used to the new stance then the bad habits can start to creep in.
but still I am very pleased! :)

[97nick]

rest of cards

[Wynne G Oldman]

I suffer from the same problem. I can shoot a good card (for me) and almost always ruin it with one or two really crap shots. Saying that, I'd be happy if I could shoot as well as you Nick.

[Trooperjake]

I think it is just a matter of knowing when to put the pistol down, and restart your shot plan.
I do the same thing and have found, I try to hold too long, or fail to stop my trigger pull when the hold starts to deteriate.
It's all part of concentration, when all other factors are eliminated.

[Dipnet]

I'm new to AP, but shooting slow fire in bullseye poses similar challenges and foibles. I suspect reoccurring flyers result from brief lapses in focus and concentration. The single thing that helps me in slow fire is to step out and resume shooting stance. This forces me to resume a new stance, body orientation, grip, and perform relaxing breathing. I think resets my focus. I need to do this about every three shots and when I do force a 4th shot, it is often not pretty. Hope this helps. Ciao bang, dipnet

[dulcmr-man]

In a previous post on this thread, Spencer suggested eliminating the ammo variable, and getting a coach. Ammo and gun work great from the bench, so my flyers are "me" and I probably need a coach. I'm in southern California and wondering how one locates a coach. What does such a service cost?

I've taken trap shooting lessons and my scores improved significantly. I'm willing to pony up for coaching if it's not TOO expensive and if I can find one not too far away. Does anyone have suggestions for locating a coach willing to work with an admitted beginner?

Dennis Clark
Palmdale, CA

[dulcmr-man]

Desert Marksmen Rifle & Pistol Club in Palmdale, CA hosts an 1800 match on the second Saturday of each month from April through October. I know that's too far to commute for folks near San Diego but if you are ever up this way, come on out. The match starts promptly at 0900 with a short break for lunch and BS. We typically finish about 1400. The match is 90 rounds of any gun and 90 rounds of any center fire. Cost is $10. This is a friendly, relaxed match and a good place for new shooters to begin.

Come on up to the high desert and have some fun with us. You can find us on the web at: http://www.desertmarksmen.org/

Regards,

Dennis Clark
Palmdale, CA

[97nick]

thanks for your advice guys, seems to be that finest/muscle (I.E core, shoulder etc) and resetting the shooting sequence are the main points.
I have included two nights a week to aerobic training, to help with this, and been doing that for the last three weeks and feel better for it. I have to also concentrate on stretching and warming up/down after the strength exercises, to make sure I dont injure myself.

been a bit frustrated this week, as home shooting training didnt go so well, but did not to bad at the range last night. I also shot two competition cards in addition to the ones pictured, a 47 and 46. felt I could have done better on them but I should stop being so hard on myself! (at least no flyers!)

the flyers are still improving, 2nd card 1st shot in the 8, 5th card, 1st shot in the 8, 6th card 5th shot in the 8. a bit less wild the the last lot
the group is slightly spread to left and right, probably because of the stance change, and I would hope to improve on that as I get used to it.



can anybody put forward some good exercises to do for shoulders?

[Curlyjim]

"this is a big improvement, but I also count in the psychological factor in that I was really concentrating! once I get used to the new stance then the bad habits can start to creep in. "


This is an interesting thread. I've got a similar 'flier' thing going on and it's becoming more and more apparent that, for me at least, it's a concentration thing.

First, let me comment about the quote above. As I recall, a number of people on TT have mentioned that trying something new often works for a while, then stops working. It's mentioned as a sort of fatalistic observation. But I think 97nick mentioned the real reason in his post when he said 'the bad habits can start to creep in'. To me (and to Dipnet in an earlier post) this boils down to 'my concentration has lapsed'. Something new is tried and works because of heightened concentration, then stops working so well because the new thing 'gets old' and concentration drops. So, the new thing is not necessarily flawed (nor maybe the old thing either), it's just that concentration drops out. This would indicate to me that 97nicks fliers (and my own) are mainly just blips in concentration. It's nice to think that a technique is at fault as that can be changed, and of course change is interesting. Fixing concentration is a lot harder. Dipnet has a workable solution which is to learn to recognize when concentration starts flagging and do something to 'break' the lapse and renew concentration.

Something else I've noticed in my own shooting is what I'll call a microflinch. Sometimes I'm all lined up and settled and the shot is about to go off and my concentration just evaporates for an instant right as the shot breaks and I have a flier. What's frustrating is that I'm good right up to that instant and have no reason to cancel, then blam. The muzzle can sure move a long ways in a tenth of a second. I have times too when an errant thought pops into my head when I'm trying to concentrate, but the flinch is different. It's not a thought at all. It's a flinch of some sort. Maybe it's just my old brain checking out once in a while. Anyone else out there have this experience?

Curlyjim

[97nick]

well, the third week is up now, stance is feeling good, less steady but that was expected and my flyers are less, by more than half. scores are down but that was expected too.
did not shoot very well last night, the groups were quite open but less flyers: one on first card, 3rd shot and on fourth card, fourth shot.
I shot two competition cards one really good, a 49, the other not so good......

so I will continue the stance, now to start putting the gun down every two shots, an see what that does. this won't be practical for long, also in competitions etc, but this is the next phase!

[97nick]

been putting the gun down every two shots, then re-starting.
its interesting, feels better and slows the process down, what I have noticed is that I have stopped and put the gun down if a shot doesn't feel right much more readily than I would otherwise.
its also easier to concentrate, I can let my mind go on about the usual crap then say ok, shot time! when I pick up the gun.

shooting went well, a flyer on the first card that I didnt call at all, my second shot which was in the 7 ring. wow no idea where that came from.
second flyer was on the 3rd card, 4th shot, I was thinking about work!
groups more vertical tonight, hopefully that is my body and muscle getting used to my new stance and not trying to pull back to the old stance.
its feeling good and that's flyers down to two out of 8 cards. four weeks ago it was 8 out of 8!

[thirdwheel]

Thanks for this insight into the way you are analysing your competitive shooting I find it fascinating and like you I guess are a zillion mile away from a decent coach.

Some super up a coming competitors at the National championships and the ESSU championships are to be seen putting their pistols down after every shot and taking the maximum allowable time to shoot. Keeps the whole process calm and slow and allows recovery, guess what I do. It has helped me so stop rushing my shots and to keep calm and get my hand dry of sweat.

Keep up the dialogue of what you are trying and the journey you are taking to perfect your technique.

George

[Rover]

I sympathize with you on this one since I am (lately) having the same problem. I was chatting with Steve Reiter (Google him) about this, since he is having the same problem. He didn't have a clue.

I think it's some kind of mental spasm connected with pulling the trigger. I know that doesn't help you, but at least makes you aware.

We shoot three shots per bull for our AP matches (twenty targets plus sighters). I take a new grip and stance when changing targets, but still get these damned score-killing flyers.

I'm working on it, but suspect it is some kind of age related thing (brain fart!).

Another thing you might want to look at is grip fit.