Is grip fitting as simple as...

[wasatch]

...applying some putty and gripping to mold it or is there shaping that would better support the hand for the task, for example, possibly reduce/prevent trigger finger tendon tension affecting the pistol?

I've searched TT and read the ISSF right hand position guidelines. Then with the guidelines in mind began applying temporary fixes in part to correct some left pointing (as the K12 doesn't have grip angle adjustment) and in general to better fit my hand. But while I'm doing that I'm wondering if there are grip shaping considerations that would position the hand better for the task than simply making a mold of my hand while holding the pistol.

I do like applying a bit of a wedge above my second finger on the wood under the trigger as the surface of my finger doesn't go straight across and there is a gap to fill. Then the weight of the pistol is more evenly applied to my second finger.

When molding the putty should I apply the same pressure as when shooting which would minimize the volume or apply less pressure so the shape has more volume to fill my hand (so long as I'm keeping my fingers lined up under the trigger)?

Thanks all!

[william]

Don Nygord wrote everything you'll need to know, and you can find it here:

http://www.australiancynic.com/NYGORD.htm

Read both entries before you take the pistol out of its case. Read them again while it's sitting on your work surface. Read them again after you've fetched the tools and materials you'll use. And read part I again just before you start work.

[wasatch]

Thanks. More good reading.
I'm going to get some Fimo clay and work on my grip this weekend.

[shaky hands]

Some of Nygord's notes are downright ridiculous. There is a guest psychiatrist's advice, where the guy traces the origin of "match stress" to cognitive dissonance. According to him, people are taught to share, and a match is a social event where being nice (sharing) is expected, but you are also expected to win. Hence the dissonance and the ensuing match pressure. I do not remember the last time I read such a baloney. Sharing is not universally taught to all people in the world. Yet, everyone experiences match pressure. The desire to be on top has evolutionary origins, stress is the way humans boost their chances to get on top. It has absolutely no relation to any cognitive dissonances with learned niceties. Then this guy claims that, contrary to matches, hunting does not induce stress, because "there is no absolute standard to meet or pressure to be perfect." I wonder if he ever went hunting.

[dronning]

Sorry in advance for being OT

Some of Nygord's notes are downright ridiculous. There is a guest psychiatrist's advice, where the guy traces the origin of "match stress" to cognitive dissonance. According to him, people are taught to share, and a match is a social event where being nice (sharing) is expected, but you are also expected to win. Hence the dissonance and the ensuing match pressure. I do not remember the last time I read such a baloney. Sharing is not universally taught to all people in the world. Yet, everyone experiences match pressure. The desire to be on top has evolutionary origins, stress is the way humans boost their chances to get on top. It has absolutely no relation to any cognitive dissonances with learned niceties. Then this guy claims that, contrary to matches, hunting does not induce stress, because "there is no absolute standard to meet or pressure to be perfect." I wonder if he ever went hunting.

To be fair they stated While the above explanation is somewhat theoretical, the EFFECTS of stress are well known and obvious..

Guest Tip by Dr. Mike Keyes, MD. (Dr. Keyes is a psychiatrist who has worked with the US Team and is a competitive shooter himself. This ‘tip’ is the first of a series on mental training.)

Today the mental side of shooting has become a familiar and vital part of the game in the United States. However, some of us can remember when even the best US shooters felt mental training was a waste of time until it became obvious we couldn't win at the International level without it. Since then there has been an effort to understand how match stress affects shooters and how to deal with the mental environment of a match. To shoot well in a match, a shooter will need to develop all three parts of the game: technical competence, physical fitness, and mental toughness. As the shooter progresses in ability and performance, the ratios of each change, but the triad has to be there or the shooter will not perform well and his improvement will stop. The worst obstacle to improvement and high performance is Match Stress. No matter who you are or at what level you shoot (novice, intermediate, master or elite), match pressure will affect you. If a shooter tells you that match pressure does not affect HIM, check his pulse (or in international matches his blood or urine!)

At all levels, a shooter must understand and learn to deal with this stress. So — first of all, what is match stress? We will start with the basics. Humans are not designed to be competitive in the way we are in shooting matches. This is ironic, because such competitions came out of warfare, which is actually fairly compatible with human psychology! Matches are different because man is a social animal and we are born, live and die in groups of people and spend much of our time dealing with others. We make friends, we live in groups, we do business, etc. And, we shoot in competition with OTHERS. Therein lies the source of match stress.

Man has the quirk of needing to establish hierarchies. This is a primate trait and in human society translates as the urge to be number one or dominate the group. However, society frowns on this ambition in many ways and children are taught to share, to ‘be nice’ to others, etc. And, when we behave in these ‘acceptable’ ways, we don't keep score. Yet, when we are in a shooting match, we do keep score and one shooter is the winner and the others are not. Worse, everybody knows exactly where you placed — both in this match and in the general sense of the shooting community. So — when you shoot, you are at a social event (so ‘be nice’), yet you are expected to dominate all the others and everyone else has the same mandate. Psychologists call this “cognitive dissonance” and one result is Match Stress. Match stress doesn't occur when you go hunting (also usually a social event) because there is no absolute standard to meet or pressure to be perfect. Your ego is safe while hunting and is not on the line the way it is in a match. There are dozens of well used reasons why “the big one got away” that can and do save one's ego! But even small shooting matches cause Match Pressure and high level matches cause an effect that even an elite level shooter may not be ready to deal with. All because you are laying your ego on the line in front of a crowd of peers while trying to meet a standard of perfection most people can't reach and you probably never will! And you thought shooting was supposed to be fun! While the above explanation is somewhat theoretical, the EFFECTS of stress are well known and obvious. For over 100 years scientists have described a “fight or flight” response to threat which is mediated by adrenaline (and a bunch of other hormones) and is predictable in its effects on humans. If allowed to escalate, the normal response to threat can lead to paralysis, but the usual response is an alerting effect that still can have troubling consequences for the match shooter. While the adrenaline response to stress makes vision better, makes you stronger and quicker, and puts a burst of energy in the form of glucose into your body, there is more — none of it good for a shooter. We have all felt the physical negative effects — sweaty palms, urinary frequency, rapid pulse, trembling limbs, etc. But the worst effects are mental.

The fight or flight reflex sets into motion a whole set of predictable mental conditions including anxiety, poor concentration, and automatic thoughts of possible failure. These intrusive and negative thoughts interfere with good performance. The final result can be a negative feedback loop in which the shooter has a few bad shots, develops anxiety and then has more bad shots as a result. This can continue until performance totally degrades. But — learning the basics of mental training such as relaxation, visualization and imagery can overcome these negative aspects.

[Spencer]

back to the original post...
...Bushnell's Law: easy to learn, difficult to master.

I take the easy path and use a grip maker of known ability.

[william]

Some of Nygord's notes are downright ridiculous. There is a guest psychiatrist's advice, where the guy traces the origin of "match stress" to cognitive dissonance. According to him, people are taught to share, and a match is a social event where being nice (sharing) is expected, but you are also expected to win. Hence the dissonance and the ensuing match pressure. I do not remember the last time I read such a baloney. Sharing is not universally taught to all people in the world. Yet, everyone experiences match pressure. The desire to be on top has evolutionary origins, stress is the way humans boost their chances to get on top. It has absolutely no relation to any cognitive dissonances with learned niceties. Then this guy claims that, contrary to matches, hunting does not induce stress, because "there is no absolute standard to meet or pressure to be perfect." I wonder if he ever went hunting.

What's your point? Did the OP ask about psychological factors? Do you have anything constructive to contribute on the subject of grip fitting?

[shaky hands]

What's your point? Did the OP ask about psychological factors? Do you have anything constructive to contribute on the subject of grip fitting?

The one thing you can do is to put aside that factory grips or the expensive custom grips you would be afraid to ruin, and to start with making your own grip. It is not as difficult as it might appear. Also, 1) it is a fun project, 2) it will make you feel that you learned something useful, and 3) you would be much less shy about experimenting with a self-made grip.

Here is a good description of the process, with pictures:

http://toz35.blogspot.co.at/2011/06/mak ... art-1.html

[shaky hands]

To be fair they stated While the above explanation is somewhat theoretical, the EFFECTS of stress are well known and obvious..

Indeed, I did not muster enough fortitude to read it that far, and rather unjustly. It would make for an even better laugh. Why waste the reader's attention developing a profound theory explaining something obvious? Besides, "theoretical" is no justification for any gibberish one might decide to come up with. I might want to argue that the planets orbit the Earth and put a sticker of "theoretical" on my drivel, but it will not make it so.

[dronning]

To be fair they stated While the above explanation is somewhat theoretical, the EFFECTS of stress are well known and obvious..

Indeed, I did not muster enough fortitude to read it that far, and rather unjustly. It would make for an even better laugh. Why waste the reader's attention developing a profound theory explaining something obvious? Besides, "theoretical" is no justification for any gibberish one might decide to come up with. I might want to argue that the planets orbit the Earth and put a sticker of "theoretical" on my drivel, but it will not make it so.

I guess if a 16 time National Champion and Olympian who held over 40 National records found it interesting enough to publish with all his other work I'd give it some consideration. Verses just someone's opinion.

- Dave

apologies to the OT I'm done with this.

[David Levene]

I might want to argue that the planets orbit the Earth and put a sticker of "theoretical" on my drivel, but it will not make it so.

Brian Cox.jpg

[shaky hands]

...I'd give it some consideration.

And in doing so you might think about why an obviously competent psychiatrist decided to state a clear absurdity. The answer is not difficult to figure and somewhat entertaining too.

[spektr]

Slathering epoxy, bondo or whatever onto a grip isnt the end all. Understanding why you are adding material is
is something else..... The cause and effects are hard to figure out. Also, your hand is a bit different depending on temp and hydration state... I fine tune with Dr Scholls moleskin tape....

[Pheyden]

On the subject of modifying grips, I just spent a ver interesting 4 hours with the master Cesare Morini in Italy. He was kind enough to do my grip (MGH1) and my wife's (LP1P). While it is interesting to see him apply filler, and shape it, it is even more interesting to see him analyze your stance and hand/gun position and then translate this into the changes he needs to make to the grip. The best $200 I have spent.

[GaryN]

Sometime you want to adjust how the hand controls the guns position. In that case you do NOT want to grab a soft material, because that would only duplicate your hand, not make the positional adjustments. Also your grip is affected by gravity (weight of the gun). I cannot figure out how to compensate for that when grabbing a soft material.

[JamesH]

...applying some putty and gripping to mold it or is there shaping that would better support the hand for the task, for example, possibly reduce/prevent trigger finger tendon tension affecting the pistol?!

It can be that simple, as long as you grip it correctly while its setting, remove the extraneous bits and add a bit here and there to give a bit of extra support.
I find it best to point the pistol straight down while the putty is setting, or rest the gun on a bench so the effect of weight doesn't compress the putty in the wrong places, also usually work from back to front in stages, since the rear of the grip largely determines how your hand sits, alignment etc.

[wasatch]

Thanks for those suggestions. If only I were visiting Italy I'd make an appointment to get my grip fitted (and get in some killer biking). That would be a great experience!

I am going to try using Fimo modeling clay to form my entire grip. It is fairly firm to work with and is set by baking in an oven. Previously I had used 2 part epoxy putty to make spot modifications. It sets really quickly and then I've shaped it further with knife and dremel. The Fimo will allow unlimited working time. I noticed that Rink incorporates a wedge above the second finger, below the trigger as well as the finger tapers. Most stock grips seem to be flat across the top of that finger. I seem to like what most mfg.s call large grips to fill my hand eventhough the 92mm across my knuckles suggests I should use a medium. But then I run out of adjustment of the shelf.

[rmca]

If two part epoxy sets to quickly, use less hardener. It should give you a good 5 to 10 minutes depending on the type used. Most people I know tend to over do it on the amount of hardener.

From your measurements I would say that your hand is in between the medium and the large. I would go with the large and cut it down where need be.
It's much easier to retract than to add... and you still end up with an all wood grip that looks better and doesn't slip as much as epoxy does.

Hope this helps

[wasatch]

The epoxy still sets in time. When I use the Fimo there isn't a deadline cause it doesn't set till baked. I can try different things to fix what I feel are deficiencies til I'm mostly satisfied then bake it.

[Rover]

I've read on the subject and played with it.

It seems I'm NEVER finished messing with grip fit. I keep a rasp in my gun case and will do a touch-up while I'm on the line.

I wish I could be as starry-eyed optimistic as the guys who order Rink (or some such) grips and think they will be the answer to their prayers.