45ACP, difference in 185 vs 200 gr SWC bullets

[Murph]

I have been only shooting JHP 185's so far. I would like to experiment with using lead at the short line. I am not sure what the pros and cons are between the 185 gr and the 200 grain SWC bullets.

Which one would offer the lowest (perceived) recoil?

[beeser]

I have been only shooting JHP 185's so far. I would like to experiment with using lead at the short line. I am not sure what the pros and cons are between the 185 gr and the 200 grain SWC bullets.

Which one would offer the lowest (perceived) recoil?

185

[shaky hands]

Did anyone else notice that 185 actually requires more powder to cycle the gun than 200?

[Murph]

Is one more accurate than the other ?

[gravely]

I cast and shoot both 185 and 200 Grain (H&G) bullelts in 2700 matches. Accuracy shouldn't be an issue for either at 25 yards, but the 185 bullet has slightly less recoil with the same powder charge than the 200 bullet. It makes a difference in 45 rapid fire strings to me. I shoot the 185 at 25 yards with 3.8 grains of Bullseye and the 200 grain with 4.0 grains at 50 yards. These are longstanding recommendations from shooters over the ages.

[GunRunner]

185 at 25 imo is better, less recoil quicker recovery, yes with a lswc a heavier bullet requires less powder but a heavier bullet gives more recoil. go with a 185 some even shoot a 160 at 25

[Trooperjake]

Murph
Get the Zero 185 SWCHP, you will never look back.
I use Bullseye 3.9,
Low recoil and very accurate.
Works great in my Pardini. Use medium recoil spring.

[paw080]

I have been only shooting JHP 185's so far. I would like to experiment with using lead at the short line. I am not sure what the pros and cons are between the 185 gr and the 200 grain SWC bullets.

Which one would offer the lowest (perceived) recoil?

Hi Murf, I cannot believe some of the load recommendations for Timed and Rapid fire.

25 yard accuracy is almost moot with a Bullseye pistol. I surmise that you want a

very low recoil, reliable but X-ring accurate load. Search no further. My short line

load is X-ring accurate, and it runs 100% of the time. It is also very low recoiling.

It uses Dardas H&G 68 200gr lSWC bullets, almost any decent case, Tula primers,

3.1gr Bullseye powder(that's right, 3.1gr) and .469" taper crimp. I have used .467"

which gives the same accuracy. My son has a Bullseye 1911 built by Greg Derr, and

it will group 10 shots in the X-ring at 25yds, but it needs 3.2gr Bullseye and a recoil

spring change to run reliably for Timed and Rapid fire. My son's pistol will group shots

into the X-ring at 50yds using an entirely different load(185gr jacketed HP or LHP).

My old pistol will shoot into the ten ring at 50yds using H&G 130 bullets from Dardas,

with 3.8-4.1 gr Bullseye,(if the Compass is pointing in the right direction).

Tony

[Murph]

Thank you all for the great feedback. I ordered some 185 gr bullets today.

[oldcaster]

All of this completely depends on whether a frame mount or slide mount scope is used. I never get accuracy with a lead 185 as good as a 200 but as it is said, at 25 it doesn't matter. The same amount of recoil is needed to operate the slide regardless of what weight bullet is used. The only thing I can say about perceived recoil is that slow powder seems to feel lighter even though the velocities are the same.

[Isabel1130]

Murph
Get the Zero 185 SWCHP, you will never look back.
I use Bullseye 3.9,
Low recoil and very accurate.
Works great in my Pardini. Use medium recoil spring.

I love these also, but shoot them at the long line with 4.0 of Bullseye.

OAL will make a difference also. Shorter bullets kick more. And it is really important once you work up a load to stay very precise about your OAL.


At the short line, I shoot the Valiant 160's with 3.6 of bullseye. They mess up paper targets a little but they are plenty accurate.

Have 14 pound springs in my guns, and a frame mounted dot.

Trooper Jake and I met for the first time and shot together in Columbia Tennessee last weekend.

[Murph]

When I worked up my settings for the JHP, I determined my OAL by dropping it into my barrel and checking the spacing, and landed at 1.205". Should I also do this same method for lead, where the base of the brass case is almost flush?
I am starting with a 185 grain SWC bullet.

[oldcaster]

I always put the front edge of the fat part of a SWC around .010 in front of the brass which I think causes less alibis. The 200 is seated in the same fashion but the nose of course sticks out farther. It might be something to experiment with as I never get good accuracy out of a lead 185 grain bullet at 50 yards. 25 yards they are fine and can be quite accurate possibly as good as a 200. Best to just try and see what happens.

[mr alexander]

Did anyone else notice that 185 actually requires more powder to cycle the gun than 200?

shaky hands,

Your observation is correct. Assuming that the same powder was being used, one would logically think that a lighter lead bullet would

require less powder while a heavier one would need more in order to cycle the same pistol. Why is the reverse true? Here's what an

engineer once told me. Because of it's heavier weight, the 200 grainer offers more resistance to moving than a 185 grain bullet

does. As a result, it remains in the case for a relatively longer period of time while the gunpowder is burning. A more thorough,

complete and efficient combustion then takes place. When the 200 grain bullet finally begins to move, the gas pressure inside the

case is at a higher level compared to what it would be when a lighter bullet starts to exit the case. Therefore, less powder's needed

for the heavier projectile. Is his explanation correct?

[dronning]

Did anyone else notice that 185 actually requires more powder to cycle the gun than 200?

shaky hands,

......... Is his explanation correct?

Yes

[shaky hands]

The explanation seems reasonable. The more slower-burning powder you use the more the pressure difference will develop between a heavier and a lighter bullets. However, even when the powder (hypothetically) burns instantaneously, there is another factor. With the same pressure behind it, the heavier bullet acquires less acceleration and, therefore, stays longer in the barrel. The total impulse (which is the force x duration of time, at least as long as the force does not change; it in fact does here, but this does not invalidate the concept) acquired by the heavier bullet is greater, given the same pressure. According to the 3rd Newton's law, equal and opposite impulse is transferred to the slide. So if the powder charge is just enough to cycle the slide for a heavier bullet, it won't be able to deliver the minimum amount of impulse needed to cycle the slide in case of a lighter bullet.

Yet another factor is the bullet length. 180 bullet is shorter and, to ensure that OAL is not too short for reliable feeding, one may need to not seat it as deep as one would a 200 bullet. The result is a larger volume of air left in the casing and, consequently, lower starting pressure, given the same amount of powder.

Which of the three factors is the most important in a given situation? Who knows.

[Rover]

A bit off topic, but you may want to try a magnum primer to boost the powder burn (pressure).

[mr alexander]

When I worked up my settings for the JHP, I determined my OAL by dropping it into my barrel and checking the spacing, and landed at 1.205". Should I also do this same method for lead, where the base of the brass case is almost flush?
I am starting with a 185 grain SWC bullet.

Murph,

Am not exactly sure of what you mean by "checking the spacing" when determining the O.A.L. of your reloaded ammo. I use 185 grain

cast LSWC bullets purchased from a local supplier. To find the correct seating depth, run a bullet into a case until it's front band is

about 1/32" above the case mouth. Remove the barrel from your pistol. With the muzzle of the barrel pointed at the floor, drop the

loaded round into the chamber. Now check the back surface of the case head. At MOST, it can be flush with the back end of the

barrel hood. However, slightly below it (around 0.010" or so) is even better as this offers a bit of extra "insurance". If the back of the

case head is above the back end of the barrel hood, the slide will not be able to close 100% into battery for firing. This is definitely

something that's to be avoided. With my particular bullets, the overall cartridge length comes to 1.150". You can use this dimension

for reference purposes. However, your final O.A.L. may differ a little from mine as the bullets we are using may be cast from molds

made by different manufacturers. I believe my supplier is using an H&G #130 mold or something similar to it. The bullets themselves

have an overall length of 0.540" and have a shape that some people refer to as a "button nose". There are some other 185 grain lead

bullets available that do have longer noses and thus are greater in length. Regardless, try seating whatever you have so that 1/32"

of the bullet's front band is above the case mouth and then test the cartridge in your pistol's barrel as previously suggested. Adjust

the seating depth if necessary.