WC Pistol setting bad examples

[David M]

I just watched the pistol finals at Fort Benning and the poor pistol handling by a
number of shooters stood out.
Pointing pistols at the roof whilst loading, arm lifts way above back stop, and the daddy of
them all the end of the Free final Damir Mikec turning to face the crowd with his Free
pistol in hand pointing toward the crowd then held over head.
For this he should have been red carded and Disqualified.

[Bob-Riegl]

I had the occasion to be calling the line for the Long Island International Pistol Intersectional Regional one merry March day, a few years back. We had a visiting shooter from New Jersey, who was a reasonably tall German specimen, who kept swigging on a bottle of Sprite, throughout the match. The word was out that he was a "wet shooter."And as the match rambled on (boring) he began after one firing session to clean his gun. Of course this was done while pointing this gun in the opposite direction than where the targets were posted ( in other words at the spectators and myself )......After he was warned by me not to do this again, he immediately began cleaning his pistol then----the same exact way he had done 10 minutes earlier. I quietly walked up to his side and told him to pack up his guns immediately and to leave the range, as he had been DQ'ed by me. He did this and as he left he came up very close to me and whispered his apologies....at that time I smelled his breath and boy was he soaked. I informed the Match Director of my doings....and I was told ....."was he shooting today???......( I answered why "yes."...I was then told by the Match Director...."he wasn't supposed to shoot as he had been thrown out of another NRA event" for the same exact reason-----"he drank too much", it appears that the bottle of Sprite was really a shim for his Vodka. That was a new reason for me...."Doc"

[Marc Orvin]

Had about a half dozen folks yellow carded at 25m for raising too high and pointing the loaded pistol at a steel structural beam about 10 feet up and about 3 feet ahead of them. One was warned and then green carded and was awarded a two point penalty for his lack of compliance with the issue.

I was at 10m for air pistol men event and noticed some pretty high lifts as well. Was told by a jury member that they had not been warned during the training day, so he was not going to start enforcing it during the match. That is one thing that happened frequently during training at 25. The rapid fire and sport shooters were warned during training to keep their muzzles down.

ISSF Rule 6.2.2.3 While athletes are on their firing points, their guns must always be
pointed in safe directions. The action or breech must not be closed
until the gun is pointing downrange in a safe direction toward the
target area.

[Andre]

What is the limit on lifting the pistol above the bull? I find if I don't lift it a foot or two above the target my arm just doesn't settle right and gets fatigued faster.

[rmca]

What is the limit on lifting the pistol above the bull? I find if I don't lift it a foot or two above the target my arm just doesn't settle right and gets fatigued faster.

You can lift as high as it is safe for the range you are shooting in.

ISSF Rule 6.2.2.3 While athletes are on their firing points, their guns must always be
pointed in safe directions.

Hope this helps

[j-team]

I just watched the pistol finals at Fort Benning and the poor pistol handling by a
number of shooters stood out.

I watched it and thought exactly the same thing.

That rule (6.2.2.3) is poorly written. The second sentence almost contradicts the first as it sort of suggests that you can point it in an unsafe direction if the breech is open. The rule would be better as just the first sentence.

And for what it's worth, the Fort Benning finals range has no roof or baffles, so "a safe direction" there is only just above the target!

[shaky hands]

ISSF Rule 6.2.2.3 While athletes are on their firing points, their guns must always be
pointed in safe directions.
Hope this helps

I do not think it helps much. So how would it be decided that a competitor, who raised an air gun well above the target, pointed it in an unsafe direction? There are no people there obviously, so for people it is pretty safe. For the walls it might not be, a pellet would probably do $5-10 worth of damage to the wall. Is it enough to earn you a warning?

[Gwhite]

It pretty much depends on the range. If the facility hosting the match doesn't want pellet holes in the walls, or people shooting out lights, they need to make the restrictions clear up front, and then enforce them uniformly.

I live in the Boston area, and at least one local outdoor range was closed when someone fired at shot at an elevated angle that hit a house. Many of the pistol ranges have safety baffles that eliminate (or at least serious reduce) that possibility, but there is always a risk. I haven't been able to shoot at 50 yards at my club for about 9 of the last 10 years because they are constantly trying to make the range idiot proof. The range is currently closed because people are shooting up the baffle system, and the maintenance costs have skyrocketed. Some of it is lousy marksmanship, but it is also a design problem. They didn't allow for the fact that shooters come in different heights, and the angles were wrong for short people.

[SamEEE]

Maybe. Perceived danger vs. actual danger? High lifts are a bit sketchy - turning around after a match for a photo - also sketchy but the photo of Mikec is a real cracker.



Isn't this all up to the range staff to enforce? Do the range staff do anything other than usher for photographs?

Marketing >> Perceived Safety? I would argue yes to a certain point.

[shaky hands]

I have seen John Zurek lifting his free pistol almost 45 degrees above horizon, and I generally like high lifts myself. (Apparently a high lift stretches Latissimus dorsi in a way that I find conductive to my shooting, though it might be my imagination.) On my local range there are overhang covers that prevent a .22 bullet from leaving the range. Admittedly, I risk damaging the overhangs, but that is the risk of a minuscule property damage that I am willing to accept (so far I have put a free pistol round into the dirt, but never into air after thousands of shots.)

[Spencer]

6.2.2.3 While athletes are on their firing points, their guns must always be pointed in safe directions...


...The action or breech must not be closed until the gun is pointing downrange in a safe direction toward the target area.

[rmca]

ISSF Rule 6.2.2.3 While athletes are on their firing points, their guns must always be
pointed in safe directions.
Hope this helps

I do not think it helps much. So how would it be decided that a competitor, who raised an air gun well above the target, pointed it in an unsafe direction? There are no people there obviously, so for people it is pretty safe. For the walls it might not be, a pellet would probably do $5-10 worth of damage to the wall. Is it enough to earn you a warning?

Well, yes!
$5 today, $5 tomorrow and so on leads to a hefty repair bill. And that's just pellets, if we start with .22s all the way to center fire, the values quite are different!
If you are lifting so high that you may hit something like a ceiling, lights or something else, then it's an unsafe direction (and a poorly designed range).
As it's been said, it depends on the range.

Although there are certain behaviors that are safe regardless of the range. And it's those that should be teached and enforced.

Turning the pistol (even with the breech open) to take a picture (a very nice one by the way!) doesn't seem to be one of those behaviours.

If that happened at a club match then I would be worried... ;)

[j-team]

Free Pistol final video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Vmad2GthVs

See firing point F at 9:36 (can someone cleverer than me can capture a still and post it here please).

[shaky hands]

Well, yes!
$5 today, $5 tomorrow and so on leads to a hefty repair bill.

But how is the wall above the target any different from the wall below it (where you undoubtedly point your gun when lifting it)? How many shooters have you seen who point their gun not at the wall/floor while loading? While visualizing the shot? While aborting it? Absolute safety is reasonable and possible to demand where people are concerned, but some risk to property is unavoidable. Of course at the club level some extra rules might be needed to avoid unnecessary range damage, but it is not reasonable to impose restrictions on world class athletes' lifts. Those exorbitant entry fees should cover an occasional pellet hole damage just fine.

[rmca]

The problem isn't the wall behind the targets... It's there to stop those pesky shots that defy reason... :)

It's everything else that could be hit by an "improper" behaviour...

[SamEEE]

Free Pistol final video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Vmad2GthVs

See firing point F at 9:36

He's gonna waste that roof! Also featured: Token MG-5.


============================================

Rough guide: Screen Capture.

• Fullscreen at highest definition.
  
  Press "Printscreen"
  
  Open MS Paint: CTRL + V.
  
  Crop accordingly. Cut (CTRL + X) the crop. New MS Paint window. Paste (CTRL + V), save to desktop.
  
  Upload to your favourite image uploading website: I like Imgur - but they seem to go in cycles (good, popular, bloated, abandoned). I digress.
  
  Paste direct link of image wrapped within:
  

  Code: Select all

  [img] [/img]

[shaky hands]

Free Pistol final video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Vmad2GthVs

See firing point F at 9:36

He's gonna waste that roof!

Not without a round in the chamber. By the way, a few seconds after the white-shirted guy does the same.

[Spencer]

1/ Interesting that this rise 'too high' habit has crept back in to ISSF international competitions. it was very common until about 15 years ago - but a few Jury members assiduously issued 'advice' during training/practice and (Hey Presto) it went away.
2/ Do not confuse 'guns must always be pointed in safe directions' that applies at all times with 'The action or breech must not be closed until the gun is pointing downrange in a safe direction toward the target area' that applies to a (loaded or not) gun with the action closed.

[JamesH]

the end of the Free final Damir Mikec turning to face the crowd with his Free
pistol in hand pointing toward the crowd then held over head.
For this he should have been red carded and Disqualified.

Yes, no question.

Safety is my major hobby-horse, you'd think it would be everyone's and yet whenever I raise concerns about serious safety infringements I only get abuse in return. Discussing it with other more serious shooters its a common feeling. 'Old Bob has been shooting for 30 years and his accidental discharges haven't killed anyone yet- leave him alone' is not really an acceptable argument in my view.

If there were one thing I'd change in Australia its allowing people to collect brass when there are people at the end of the range scoring. Picking up brass invariably drifts into fiddling around with live ammo, moving guns around, and at the recent Aus nationals starting to load a magazine.

It seems simple and effective enough just to have people 2m back from the bench until 'load' is called, I don't know why its not done.

[JamesH]

Breach almost closed, no safety flag, unsafe direction?