Grip Force vs Grip Angle

[pgmlml]

Hi!

I found myself firing my AP with my hand very relaxed! So relaxed that the muzzle is always pointing down, with my wrist locked. I adjust the grip and the problem seems even worst, because I relax my hand even more and the pistol stars falling from my hand.
If I grab the gun with a bit more force (with the wrist locked), the muzzle rises a bit, but then I'm afraid I'm applying too much force.
I'm trying to get a balance between the force needed for rising the muzzle enough for a good sight alignment, without compromising stabilization and trigger finger!
What's your personal experience?

[saktabor]

From a beginners perspective, I am having the same issues except when trying to control the muzzle by increasing the grip, I find myself moving away from trigger release "surprise". With the heavier grip, as soon as trigger pressure increases, so does muzzle movement.

Without your AP in your hand, if you close your hand and "lock" your wrist in the same position as if you were holding it, are your fingers supposed to be generally parallel to the length of the forearm or are they angled upward? I'll be very interested in a proper description of "locked" from the pros.

Cheers
Bob

[shaky hands]

Since you raised the bar too high for me, I humbly step aside. But the author of the article below is certainly one of them pros:
http://www.pilkguns.com/anatoli2.shtml

[pgmlml]

( I don't consider myself a begginer, lol! I've been shooting AP for almost 3 years, but just on the last 6 months i've been working harder! )
My fingers are angled down! I exposed my problem to my coach and we told me to relax and let the muzzle point down. We tried to compensate with the grip adjustment, but it's not enough (and believe me the Walther lp400 has enough adjustment), and then again I start to relax even more and the pistol almost falls of my hands...

the pilkguns article doesn't answer my "questions" :/

What I want to know is about your experiences ?!?! The question to my problem, I have it: I have to adapt myself to the gun and not wait for the gun to fully adapt to me! I have to find a balance. I haver to grip the gun, i cannot allow the gun to fall on the floor!

[Rover]

It's simple: You need a firm grip, but not squeezing the sap out of the wood. Take it from there.

[saktabor]

Shaky Hands, IMHO, "pro" is a relative term. When you are at the bottom of a steep hill, those above can look pretty impressive.... thanks for the link, the photos cleared up the locked wrist question for me.

Being from a Bullseye past, my previous vision of locked wrist was having the hand parallel to the forearm so it could help control and absorb recoil, not a problem with AP. Still very interested in the trigger pressure/grip pressure relationship.

Bob

[shaky hands]

Saktabor, I am glad that you found this article useful. It is less well-known than it is worth. Piddubniy is the the prophet of the locked wrist. All I can add from my personal experience is that focusing my attention on the wrist (as well as adding some tension in the outside forearm muscles) improves my groups (and I don't rely on the dropped wrist too much -- being rather nimble in the joints a fully dropped wrist for me would put a bullet/pellet into the ground 10 feet from me). The telltale sign of a not very well locked wrist is a "saber line" -- shots dispersed from 1 to 7 o'clock. Many think of 7 o'clock shots as caused by trigger jerks, but they are also a sign of a loose wrist. You have bullseye background, so use it. I have communicated with Piddubniy electronically a couple of times, and once he said that 20-second series in standard pistol (a lot like timed fire in BE sans the lift) is the "golden key to all pistol disciplines". Allegedly, the tension in the wrist created by the first shot reproduces the ideal wrist tension that one should also use in precision shooting.

[therider]

Until yesterday I have always been after grips and pistols with low rake angle.

However yesterday for the first time I finally let the pistol 'hang'.
The results were much much better. I shot 8 ten in a row, with a very nice grouping.

However, after shooting for one hour i could not see any more the front sight of my MGH1 as it was dropping too low. I believe that the MGH1 has a very high rake angle. However it seems that it is not high enough for my wrist.
I measured for my MGH1 something about 35-38 degrees.

Can somebody advice? Should I ask Cesare to increase the rake angle (i guess i need about 45-48 degrees)? Or should I use a bit of muscles to lift the muzzle up (if i really relax I need to lift about 3 front sight hight)?

I have to say that with completely hanging pistol I have the impression that trigger failure were completely non existent and that front and rear sights were really fixed.

Any advice please?

[pgmlml]

therider,

seems to me you have the exacly same problem as I do! I believe the answer is in a little more firm grip, but my best result are always when my hand is very relaxed! :/

[therider]

If i remember correctrly your fellow country man, RMCA, was advising me last June to just let the wrist relax under the weight of the gun till natural position.

So far I have only tried occasionally to loosen the grip force, but this has catastrophic results! Group widens till the edge of the 7 for me!
It was only 2 days ago that I eventually followed RMCA advice and the effect on trigger release and on grouping is amazing.

The problem is that if I really relax, the front sights sinks away! However if I lift the gun just a bit, applying little force on wrist muscle, the gain in grouping seems to disappear.

what about health? I felt that muscles had been strained....can this cause damages????

[pgmlml]

When I say applying force i dont mean rising the muzzle! Naturally when I apply a little more force the shape of my hand changes a bit and that makes the muzzle rise a bit. I still use my wrist locked!

[rmca]

It was only 2 days ago that I eventually followed RMCA advice and the effect on trigger release and on grouping is amazing.

I´m glad it helped!

This is my experience on the subject, once you find the "natural" angle that your arm and pulse stay when you hold your fist closed like you were going to punch someone, adjust the grip on the gun so that the sights are aligned when your arm is in that position. With a small to moderate force applied to the grip. There is very little recoil, so you don't need a death grip!
Then, if you drop the front sight you know you're relaxing too much, or applying too much force. Depends on how your grip is.

The more angle you put on your grip, the stadier it will seem (less muscle and more tendons stretched), but it will make pulling the trigger harder. Your groups may improve but your mistakes will worsen.
So it's just a balancing act, where you have to find what combination works best for you. More or less angle vs less or more grip pressure.

Remember that when you are in a match, the stress will usually make you grip harder, so have that in account when you set your grip angle.

Hope this helps