Use of palm block in kneeling

[PaulB]

Is the use of a palm block, on the accessory rail of a .22 free rifle or sport rifle, to rest your forward hand on, allowed in kneeling? I noticed a shooter at the NCAA championships using an adjustable height palm block in kneeling that appeared to be 1.5 to 2 inches in height. If it is not allowed, why not, since you are allowed a stock of almost any shape or size in .22 free rifle? If it is allowed is it subject to the same size limitations as a palm rest used in standing?

[David Levene]

ISSF rule 7.4.5 d)
Weights on the rifle fore-end may extend no lower than 90 mm below the centerline of the barrel and not further forward than 700 mm from the back (rear) end of the system.

ISSF rule 7.4.5.2
Palm Rests
A palm rest is any attachment or extension below the fore-end that aids the support of the rifle by the forward hand in the standing position only. Such extensions must not extend more than 200 mm below the centerline of the barrel.

[PaulB]

So, 7.4.5.2 says that one cannot use a palm block in kneeling, correct?

Thus, if NCAA is using ISSF rules, which I believe they do, the woman using it in the championships was breaking the rules and she was not challenged on it.

[Abi]

A few things....

- NCAA does not use ISSF rules, they use NCAA rules which are based off of USAS rules which are based off of ISSF rules. Yes it matters.

-it is no longer "free rifle".

[PaulB]

I just read the USA Shooting rule 7.4.5.2 that was linked to from the NCAA website and it reads exactly the same as the ISSF rule of the same number.

http://www.ncaa.org/championships/playi ... rules-game

[David Levene]

So, 7.4.5.2 says that one cannot use a palm block in kneeling, correct?

If it doesn't go lower than 90mm below the centreline of the barrel, is it classed as a weight?

[PaulB]

Good question.
Any ISSF rifle judges on here?

[Trooperjake]

Paul
See if you can contact Gary Anderson.
He is on Facebook, and the CMP may forward your request to him.
When he moved from Ohio, I lost his contact info.

[redschietti]

I think there is a difference between a foreend and a palm rest

[cmj]

7.4.5.2 Palm Rests
A palm rest is any attachment or extension below the fore-end that
aids the support of the rifle by the forward hand in the standing
position only. Such extensions must not extend more than 200 mm
below the centerline of the barrel.

Does not say can not use palm rest I think you are confusing rest with weight. Weight is not used to support the hand and generally at the front of the stock usually on adjustable rods than can be used to "tune " the stock a bit.
Weights can't extend below 90mm of center , Palm rest can be 200mm from center, A Kneeling rest generally has a rail to attach the sling swivel to and usually not very deep.

http://www.usashooting.org/library/Rule ... e_2014.pdf

[David Levene]

......in the standing position only.

Does not say can not use palm rest

That's exactly what it does say.

I think you are confusing rest with weight. Weight is not used to support the hand ......

But it can.

It doesn't say that a weight cannot, for example, be a solid block running under the forend (provided that it is no lower than 90mm below the CL of the barrel). The rules also do not say that the forend cannot be 90mm below the CL of the barrel.


My reading is that you can have any configuration within that 90mm. In standing you can go to 200mm with a palm rest.

[BigAl]

What is allowed is building up the depth of the fore end of the stock with a solid block. In AR/Std Rifle it required that this followed the "line of the stock" and IIRC had to remain in place throughout the match. Certainly looking at modern Aluminium AR stocks they now seem to allow the bottom of the stock to be a thin flat sheet along the length of the fore end mounted on changeable (rather than adjustable during match) standoffs.

Alan

[justadude]

This is an interesting question, perhaps an interesting can of worms.

In the past few years I have seen some world cup level prone shooters shooting with blocks under the foreend. Most specifically I recall Matt Emmons doing this. And it was, just a basic block that pretty much followed the lines of the stock. I know I have seen others do this but exactly who has faded.

Now, borrowing a bit from Air Rifle where palm rests are prohibited, the accessory (usually included from the factory as standard equipment) attached to the bottom of the foreend on an air rifle that is NOT A PALM REST is for most modern air rifles adjustable and is allowed to extend up to 90mm below the barrel centerline. For lack of a better description I call this feature that is not a palm rest a palm shelf.

Word smithing a bit here, if by Air Rifle standard 7.4.2.2 where palm rests are not allowed but stocks can be increased in depth up to 90mm below the barrel CL, then by extension the same buildup of any other rifle, so long as it is not anatomically formed to the hand would also not be defined as a palm rest.

So long as it is not anatomically formed and not more than 90mm below barrel CL, the young lady was probably OK, but that is just my opinion and... this was a great question.

Cheers,
'Dude

[jhmartin]

This is indeed interesting. And the way I've interpreted it:

I have juniors that I add this attachment for in the sling positions
We treat this as depth of for-end and can be no more than 90mm. Different rifles have different stock depths, allowed to go to 90mm max.

"In the standing position only", you are allowed to go to 200mm.

David & I are on the same page in the interpretation I guess. If I'm wrong I'd sure like to know.

[BigAl]

There is no maximum depth for the fore end of the stock on the 50m rifle. The 90mm depth only applies to AR and 300m Std Rifle. So there is technically no limit to how deep you can build the stock at the forend. Modern Aluminium stocks seem to have a variety of different forend blocks for this purpose. Invariably they have a length of accessory rail fitted in them to take the hand stop in the kneeling/prone positions. I used to use the block from my Palm Rest to build up the depth of the forend of my 1813 for kneeling. I used the metal part on it's own as a palm rest in the standing position. I also note that they have removed the section about building up the depth of the forend of the Std/AR following the form of the existing stock at some point in the past.

Alan

[gwsb]

A sure sign of the imminent apocalypse:

A rule that Paul has to ask for help understanding.

[PaulB]

Sort of glad that the collegiate club rifle championships where I will be an official this weekend is using the NRA conventional smallbore rulebook.

[jhmartin]

Sort of glad that the collegiate club rifle championships where I will be an official this weekend is using the NRA conventional smallbore rulebook.

There is indeed a difference in the NRA Smallbore Rifle (even the "Any Rifle") and the NRA International Rifle. But probably as it is such a royal PITA to get a rule change thru an NRA committee.

That said, the NRA Collegiate Club Championship is, I think, one of their greatest competition programs. It allows those collegians who are not part of an NCAA team the wonderful opportunity to continue shooting thru college.

One of my club's Jr-Coaches and collegiate student is competing this weekend. (Deep Tens Cory!)
Only wish Benning could put their targets online!