sight adjusments above 10.5?

[Albert T]

When I read the books of Heinz Reinkenmeier he states that when a shooter hits 10.5 or higher, the best thing to do is give at least 1 click with the rearsight. This was confirmed by a young shooter from The Netherlands who is shooting at top level at the moment.
Can someone please explane the reason and/or calculation behind this rule? Why gives a single click a higher score (in tenths) when the hit is within the minimum spread of shooter-rifle-ammo?

Thanks,
Albert T

[mmajora]

Hm, interesting. I do the same, but I didin't know there's some kind of rule behind. Maybe you'll try ask Reinkemeier @ fb?

[jhmartin]

As a junior coach, I teach my shooters to adjust their sights after every shot.

Some of this is mental, and I suspect that the 10.5 advice falls in here. You never want to get in the mode where you are afraid or stubborn enough to adjust the sights ...

My one goal for my juniors is of course the mental above, but more importantly to get the groups they are shooting centered.
Many times in practice (we practice on paper targets) we take a black marker and color in the center bull so no number reference is available ... they then shoot and adjust to move the shot to the center of the bull.

[Brian Girling]

10.5 I would be very happy ;-)

But I am a pistol shooter.

[Albert T]

I was talking to a Dutch junior, (name: Jelle Wind) who was shooting at the international air match Intershoot in The Haegue, The Netherlands in februari. (He finished 3rd, only 8 points less then Bindra and 3 points less then Peter Hellenbrand). He told me that reserch has been done in Germany (by Heinz?) that has proven that when you adjust the sights 1 or 2 clicks after every 10.5 or higher, the total score (in tenths) is always higher than when you do not click the sights. This is what is beeing tought to all national juniors in The Netherlands. Unfortunately nothing can be found on this subject on the internet.
Maybe part of it is a mental thing, but scores show the actual results.

If anyone can enlighten me on the why and how, I would be very greatfull.

Albert T, The Netherlands

[mtncwru]

I'm guessing here, but I suspect that a lot of it is the mental bit that jhmartin mentioned. By taking a click in the appropriate direction(s) when a shot is 10.5+, you force yourself to assess each shot and not get complacent with a 10.5. That happened to me in the final of our last club match: my last ten shots were a 103.0, beautifully centered on the X-ring line at 3 o'clock. Had I clicked over one or two, that 103 would have been more like a 105. By training to take the click each time, you incorporate it into your standard shot process, and are far less likely to forget to do it in a high stress situation, be that a final, a big match, etc.

[jhmartin]

A few years ago I was able to ask Gaby Buhlmann (co-author) about this when she was at the US OTC.
Hers was a typical Swiss response ... a shrug and a "if it's not a 10.9....."

I took it as a why not and it can't hurt....

[rmca]

Just guessing here, but if you shot a 10.5 or higher it means that you most likely done everything right (or very close to it...) and that still didn't get you the 10.9, because the point that your sights show is not exactly the same where the pellet impacts.
So, by adjusting in a shoot like that, you are moving the sights in the correct way towards the point of impact.
Next time you get a "good" shot, by simple reasoning you should score higher.

How does that sound?

[Thomas Monto]

Pellets tuned to the rifle should produce a single hole. (I like my shot group to hold the pellet after a 5 shot group) That being said a .1 increase in shot value over a 60 shot match would result in a 6.0 increase in total score which is a major improvement in score. In the finals some results are decided by a .1 point

[Albert T]

As far as I know a very good tuned airrifle with excellent ammo can produce a 40 shot group of 5.9mm or a 10 shot group of 5.4mm. See the Facebook page of Heinz Reinkenmeier.
According to H.R. a 10 shot group in a paper target that can hold a airrifle pellet says nothing about te accuracy of the rifle because te paper is flexible and the pellet cuts a smaller hole then the pellet diameter. (same FB page).

[jhmartin]

Albert ... maybe you misunderstood Toms post ... remember you started this discussion about clicking at 10.5.
Tom's point is that if you click and score an average of .1 point higher (not pellet/group diameter) that is a potential +6.0 score increase.

The comment about whether or not a one hole group says something about the accuracy of a rifle probably is one for a thread of it's own.
(Me, I'd say buy a lot of those pellets)

[Albert T]

I have send an email to HR, asking him to explain the situation with the klicks above 10.5. I hope he will find the time to answer. Otherwise I will try to speak to him at the European Championship Air in Arnhem, The Netherlands coming month (if I can get close enough in my wheelchair). After a lot of searching on the internet I think it has something to do with the change of hitting a higher/lower score related to the shape of the Gause equasion or bell-curve. When moving to the middle or centreline of the curve the change of hitting a higher score increases more than the reduction in change of hitting a lower score when moving away from the centreline.

[justadude]

From my vantage point, behind the sights, there are a few things going on here and in my opinion, several of you have made very correct points.

I am currently about a 585 integer, 610 decimal AR60 shooter. When I release a shot I usually have a pretty good idea of where that shot is going to land, without even looking at the monitor or in the scope. To rmca's point, by the time a shot is 10.5 or better I know I did everything pretty much right, sight alignment, trigger control and follow through. If that shot is not dead center I need to do something to move it in that direction.

Recall, now that we score in decimal there is no longer a "good enough", in the old days a 10.0 and 10.9 showed up the same at the end of the day, now days with decimal scoring if you are not constantly driving for 10.9 you are giving something up to someone who is.

The interesting thing, for a 10.3 to 10.6 I will most likely click the sights, (using 20 click Centra's a 10.3 will get 2 clicks, 10.6 1 click) Above 10.7, OK other top shooters might still be clicking, I will leave that alone. 9.8 to 10.2 I may click, it depends on how I felt about that shot. Mid 9s and below, I am most likely not touching the sights but more going though my mental checklist to get my shot process back in order.

I do like jhmartins point of teaching juniors that it is OK to turn those knobs, I see a large number of new shooters with "sight freeze", dropping points due to the "I think I should move the sights but what if I move them the wrong way?" With newer juniors it might take more than one shot to know where the sights should move but they should be moved and taught that it is OK to move them.

Several months back, someone counted sight adjustments as Nicco Campriani went through a 60 shot match. I do not recall the exact number but it was in the mid 40s for number of sight changes over 60 shots.

Getting to Albert's point about probabilities: This plays into it. Consider that if I shoot a 10.9, there is a 100% probability that any deviation from that location will result in a lower shot value. Due to the circular shape of the target the further you get from the center the closer the odds become to 50/50 that a deviation of the shot placement with either help or hurt the value. I paid good money for those knobs on the top of my rifle to help improve the odds that the direction of change will be to my advantage, I might as well use them.

Cheers,
'Dude

[rmarsh]

My daughter's coach calls them "safety clicks". So you shot a 10.5 at 3 O'clock. Was it you or the sights? I'm not sure even the best of the best can call a 10.5 or better, maybe so..... A single click is such a small adjustment that it should not move you out of the 10.5 ring the other direction, so go ahead and make that click to the center. In sighters, it is fine to shoot a few and move the group, but once the match has started every shot counts. For top level shooters, shooting 2 or 3 10.2s before moving the sights to the center can ruin an otherwise good string.

[jhmartin]

For top level shooters, shooting 2 or 3 10.2s before moving the sights to the center can ruin an otherwise good string.

Excellent points Dude & Rick ...
And in a final you just cannot afford to lose any tenths.

[Jordan1s]

I remember reading Heinz Reinkemeier's response to this question somewhere on his facebook page(link below) but his comment stated(and I paraphrase) "one click per shot will randomize the group toward the center"

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=15 ... =3&theater