never shot them. lots of shooting experience but all with irons and telescopic sights.
i'm going to shoot NRA prone some this upcoming year outdoors. I went a couple times last year and they let me shoot "F" class? with a scope. i like the precision involved. i would also like to try the three position sometime if i can find a venue semi locally. i have the rest of the equipment now to compete, but no sights.
help me with info on start up equipment and proper use of said equipment. i've tried to google search this and it's surprisingly hard to research online.
all help will be greatly appreciated. web links, contact info for used items, etc.
--James
help a noob with aperture sights please....
Moderators: pilkguns, Marcus, m1963, David Levene, Spencer
Re: help a noob with aperture sights please....
Ok,
Help us out here: You "have no sights" I interpret that to mean you have a rifle with a scope but no iron sights and you are looking to purchase sights and then get used to using them?
If so, what kind of rifle do you have, one of the Germans or something else?
'Dude
Help us out here: You "have no sights" I interpret that to mean you have a rifle with a scope but no iron sights and you are looking to purchase sights and then get used to using them?
If so, what kind of rifle do you have, one of the Germans or something else?
'Dude
Re: help a noob with aperture sights please....
As 'Dude said, it would help to know what make/model of rifle you have. Some sight sets can be fited onto several makes/models of rifle, but others are more specific.
With rearsights, there are two basic ways to fit an aperture rearsight onto the rifle. The traditional way is by a bracket on the Left Hand side of the receiver (assuming an RH bolt). This is the method used for Redfield sights on Winchester and Remington rifles, and for Parker-Hale sights on the BSA International rifles. The rearsight slides on the bracket and is bolted or clamped into place. Different makes of rearsight employ different size brackets. The other method is to cut grooves into the top of the rearsight; this is the method used by all modern German rifles (Anschutz, Feinwerkbau, and Walther) and also the Kimber 82G rifles. The rearsight has a dovetailed base that engages with the receiver grooves, and is clamped into place. All Anschutz rifles have the same spec receiver grooves, so any Anschutz rearsight will fit any Anschutz action (as will any after-market rearsight made for Anschutz actions), but Walther and Feinwerkbau grooves may differ slightly.
The Foresight invariably fits onto a dovetail on the barrel; the dovetail can be part of a collar soldered onto the muzzle, a bolt-on block, or simply grooves cut straight into the barrel steel. The dovetail will usually be sized for a specific model/make of foresight. Please note Anschutz rifles made between 1954 and 1986 (1400/1600/1800 models) have a different size dovetail and a different foresight to 1987+ rifles (1900 and 2000 models).
Does your rifle have the mounting brackets/dovetails/blocks to fit rearsight and foresight. If it does, and you know the rifle's make/model, it should be possible to identify what make/model of sights you should buy. If you don't have the mounting brackets/dovetails/blocks, you will need to acquire these as well.
With rearsights, there are two basic ways to fit an aperture rearsight onto the rifle. The traditional way is by a bracket on the Left Hand side of the receiver (assuming an RH bolt). This is the method used for Redfield sights on Winchester and Remington rifles, and for Parker-Hale sights on the BSA International rifles. The rearsight slides on the bracket and is bolted or clamped into place. Different makes of rearsight employ different size brackets. The other method is to cut grooves into the top of the rearsight; this is the method used by all modern German rifles (Anschutz, Feinwerkbau, and Walther) and also the Kimber 82G rifles. The rearsight has a dovetailed base that engages with the receiver grooves, and is clamped into place. All Anschutz rifles have the same spec receiver grooves, so any Anschutz rearsight will fit any Anschutz action (as will any after-market rearsight made for Anschutz actions), but Walther and Feinwerkbau grooves may differ slightly.
The Foresight invariably fits onto a dovetail on the barrel; the dovetail can be part of a collar soldered onto the muzzle, a bolt-on block, or simply grooves cut straight into the barrel steel. The dovetail will usually be sized for a specific model/make of foresight. Please note Anschutz rifles made between 1954 and 1986 (1400/1600/1800 models) have a different size dovetail and a different foresight to 1987+ rifles (1900 and 2000 models).
Does your rifle have the mounting brackets/dovetails/blocks to fit rearsight and foresight. If it does, and you know the rifle's make/model, it should be possible to identify what make/model of sights you should buy. If you don't have the mounting brackets/dovetails/blocks, you will need to acquire these as well.
Last edited by Tim S on Wed Feb 11, 2015 6:59 am, edited 2 times in total.
Re: help a noob with aperture sights please....
Fieldsj66,
here are a few tips on using aperture sights.
Firstly, you don't need perfect vision to use them, but good corrected vision helps. If you haven't visited an optician in a while, go see one. Serious Prone/Position shooters will often use glasses specifically prescribed for use with aperture sights, but at first good corrected distance vision will suffice.
Aperture sights work like a pinhole camera. Normally if you try to focus on two objects, one near the other far, one will be very blurry. But with aperture sights the foresight should be sharp and clear, and the target will be just a little fuzzy. This is acheieved by the rearsight aperture, which narrows and elongates your focal length. The foresight just helps to centre the target.
The position of the rearsight aperture to your eye is very important; too near and you lose the critical depth of focus, but too far away and the sight picture becomes too dark to see. For most folks an eye releif of 1-2in is about right, but shooters need to find the perfect spot for themselves; do this by moving the rearsight on the rifle, not your head on the stock.
To aim, you look through the centre of the rearsight aperture at the foresight. Don't focus on the target, only on the foresight. Once you have acheived the correct sight alignment you can worry about where the target is in relation to the foresight. The foresight is brought to bear on the target by moving the whole body, not by pushing the rifle. A good sight picture (with an aperture foresight) is made up on concentric circles: Rearsight aperture - foresight tunnel - foresight ring - target. Work on keeping the foresight dead centre in the rearsight; having the foresight off centre in the rearsight will produce a much worse shot than if the target is off-centre in the foresight.
Now I'll say a word about the foresight aperture. This is normally an interchangeable element (insert in the US) made of stamped metal or Perspex. Perspex elements have a hole in the centre; the hole has a bevelled edge that turns black in the tunnel. The choice between metal and Perspex is entirely personal; what ever gives the tightest groups for you is best. Elements also come with different size apertures; this lets you personalise the gap between target and aperture. Beginners are often tempted into an aperture (and gap) that is much too small. A very small aperture appears to make your aim much more stable, with little wobble. This is an illusion, and can lead to serious aiming errors, as it's possible to overlap the foresight ring and target without seeing; the inner edge of the aperture is fuzzy with refracted light, so this can be mistaken for a very thin gap. A decent gap of light between the target and rearsight will give better results; the less stable your hold, the bigger the gap. Here in the UK, an aperture of 3.6-4.0mm is recommended for Prone shooting (with an Anschutz rifle).
That should do for a start. Topics like adjustable rearsight apertures, use of coloured filters, and dealing with changing ambient light can wait for another day.
here are a few tips on using aperture sights.
Firstly, you don't need perfect vision to use them, but good corrected vision helps. If you haven't visited an optician in a while, go see one. Serious Prone/Position shooters will often use glasses specifically prescribed for use with aperture sights, but at first good corrected distance vision will suffice.
Aperture sights work like a pinhole camera. Normally if you try to focus on two objects, one near the other far, one will be very blurry. But with aperture sights the foresight should be sharp and clear, and the target will be just a little fuzzy. This is acheieved by the rearsight aperture, which narrows and elongates your focal length. The foresight just helps to centre the target.
The position of the rearsight aperture to your eye is very important; too near and you lose the critical depth of focus, but too far away and the sight picture becomes too dark to see. For most folks an eye releif of 1-2in is about right, but shooters need to find the perfect spot for themselves; do this by moving the rearsight on the rifle, not your head on the stock.
To aim, you look through the centre of the rearsight aperture at the foresight. Don't focus on the target, only on the foresight. Once you have acheived the correct sight alignment you can worry about where the target is in relation to the foresight. The foresight is brought to bear on the target by moving the whole body, not by pushing the rifle. A good sight picture (with an aperture foresight) is made up on concentric circles: Rearsight aperture - foresight tunnel - foresight ring - target. Work on keeping the foresight dead centre in the rearsight; having the foresight off centre in the rearsight will produce a much worse shot than if the target is off-centre in the foresight.
Now I'll say a word about the foresight aperture. This is normally an interchangeable element (insert in the US) made of stamped metal or Perspex. Perspex elements have a hole in the centre; the hole has a bevelled edge that turns black in the tunnel. The choice between metal and Perspex is entirely personal; what ever gives the tightest groups for you is best. Elements also come with different size apertures; this lets you personalise the gap between target and aperture. Beginners are often tempted into an aperture (and gap) that is much too small. A very small aperture appears to make your aim much more stable, with little wobble. This is an illusion, and can lead to serious aiming errors, as it's possible to overlap the foresight ring and target without seeing; the inner edge of the aperture is fuzzy with refracted light, so this can be mistaken for a very thin gap. A decent gap of light between the target and rearsight will give better results; the less stable your hold, the bigger the gap. Here in the UK, an aperture of 3.6-4.0mm is recommended for Prone shooting (with an Anschutz rifle).
That should do for a start. Topics like adjustable rearsight apertures, use of coloured filters, and dealing with changing ambient light can wait for another day.
Re: help a noob with aperture sights please....
James.
Tim did a good job of starting you down the correct path. You might want to attend a match to see what others are shooting if you plan to be competitive and want to avoid buying more than once. Eyesight varies greatly across shooters and it takes a good deal of experimentation to find a setup that will hold up for a long match in varying light conditions. You can't hit what you can't see. Where in TN are you located?
Mark
Tim did a good job of starting you down the correct path. You might want to attend a match to see what others are shooting if you plan to be competitive and want to avoid buying more than once. Eyesight varies greatly across shooters and it takes a good deal of experimentation to find a setup that will hold up for a long match in varying light conditions. You can't hit what you can't see. Where in TN are you located?
Mark
Re: help a noob with aperture sights please....
thanks for the help!
gun: Anschutz 2007 with factory matching wood stock, 660 barrel with dovetail grooves.
prescription glasses for nearsightedness.
Crossville.
gun: Anschutz 2007 with factory matching wood stock, 660 barrel with dovetail grooves.
prescription glasses for nearsightedness.
Crossville.
-
crankythunder
- Posts: 255
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- Location: The ugly side of Hell, Michigan
- Contact:
Re: help a noob with aperture sights please....
Dear Fields:
I see you are in Tennessee and you are very fortunate to have one of the premier shooting suppliers just a short drive away. At least I hope its not at the far end of the state!
Anyways, I do not know that much about the Anschutz but the guys down at Champions Choice do! They have steered me good over the years (along with their competitor in Ohio, Champion Shooters Supply) and they will get you started off correctly. Take your rifle and your checkbook and you will walk out of there with a set of sights that will work and an excellent supplier to back them up.
While I do not recommend purchasing them right now, take a look and write down the price of the adjustable rear aperture and the adjustable front sight insert. If you get really serious with the aperture sights, these items can easily be added later at the same cost if you purchased them now.
While you are at the store, see if they got a book called Way of the Rifle 2009. It is an expensive book and I cannot say that it is a excellent book, it is a good book and about the best that I have seen for a new shooter. where this book shines is that it offers excellent pictures and diagrams for position, sight alignment, equipment usage, and mental conditioning, it tends to concentrate on the very top shooters and the non standard positions that they use. The beginner reading this book will be lured away from the fundamentals of position shooting by this book if they do not force themselves to stay on track. Also there are some hiccups in the translation from German to English.
Anyways, Champions Choice should be able to get you set up with a quality set of sights that fit your rifle. They will have a non adjustable rear aperture that may be a little too small but can easily be drilled out to a larger size should you prefer. The front sight will have various size inserts that you change out to deliver the correct sight picture for the lighting conditions.
While I wasn't much help on the Anschutz sights, if you have any other questions where I could be of assistance, feel free to shoot me a pm or post another thread here online.
Regards,
Cranky
I see you are in Tennessee and you are very fortunate to have one of the premier shooting suppliers just a short drive away. At least I hope its not at the far end of the state!
Anyways, I do not know that much about the Anschutz but the guys down at Champions Choice do! They have steered me good over the years (along with their competitor in Ohio, Champion Shooters Supply) and they will get you started off correctly. Take your rifle and your checkbook and you will walk out of there with a set of sights that will work and an excellent supplier to back them up.
While I do not recommend purchasing them right now, take a look and write down the price of the adjustable rear aperture and the adjustable front sight insert. If you get really serious with the aperture sights, these items can easily be added later at the same cost if you purchased them now.
While you are at the store, see if they got a book called Way of the Rifle 2009. It is an expensive book and I cannot say that it is a excellent book, it is a good book and about the best that I have seen for a new shooter. where this book shines is that it offers excellent pictures and diagrams for position, sight alignment, equipment usage, and mental conditioning, it tends to concentrate on the very top shooters and the non standard positions that they use. The beginner reading this book will be lured away from the fundamentals of position shooting by this book if they do not force themselves to stay on track. Also there are some hiccups in the translation from German to English.
Anyways, Champions Choice should be able to get you set up with a quality set of sights that fit your rifle. They will have a non adjustable rear aperture that may be a little too small but can easily be drilled out to a larger size should you prefer. The front sight will have various size inserts that you change out to deliver the correct sight picture for the lighting conditions.
While I wasn't much help on the Anschutz sights, if you have any other questions where I could be of assistance, feel free to shoot me a pm or post another thread here online.
Regards,
Cranky
Re: help a noob with aperture sights please....
fieldsj66 wrote:thanks for the help!
gun: Anschutz 2007 with factory matching wood stock, 660 barrel with dovetail grooves.
prescription glasses for nearsightedness.
Crossville.
OK, that helps. Any Anschutz rearsight will fit your action. That covers the current 7002 "Universal" and 6805 "Match", as well as the older 6702 and 6802 "International" rearsights. Almost all european sights turn clockwise to move bullet impact down/left, and anti-clockwise for up/right; clicks are nominally 1/6 minute on older rearsights, but 1/12 Minute now seems to be the norm; handy hint, if the turrets are numbersed 1-10 it's a 1/6 minute, and 1-20 means 1/12 minute.
A new rearsight will come with a single interchangeable eyepiece, usually a 1.1mm aperture. This can be replaced with a variable aperture iris; Gehmann and Centra are the common brands.
When it comes to the foresight, anything labelled as fitting a 1907/1913, or 2013 rifle will be just fine for your 2007. Anschutz sell their sights as sets; no 7020 has the 7002 rearsight, and the 6834 has the 6805 rearsight. If you want additional elements Anschutz tunnels take 18mm dia elements (a nominal size) for metal and Perspex.
Re: help a noob with aperture sights please....
Fields,
Looks like Tim has you pretty well set in terms of the mechanics of the sights. Just a few things to add:
If you poke about on this site, gun broker, guns america and ebay it is not uncommon to find Anschutz sights, especially rear sights for sale. Expect to pay around $150 for an older used Anschutz rear sight in good condition. The front sight might be a little more problematic as I don't see anywhere near the number of front sights for sale as rear. You also need the one that mounts to the 19xx and 20xx front dovetail. For prone shooting you will also occasionally find a rear sight that has had the front 1.5 or so inches of rail clipped off so the sights can be moved further forward. (recognizable from the distance as there will be only one clamping screw) For prone shooting, this would be ideal.
Tim mentioned a 3.6 to 4.0 front aperture, this would be a decent starting point but as the aiming black for NRA targets is smaller than the international target used most places so going smaller on the aperture might be necessary. Also, if you add a bloop tube you will need a larger aperture. I think I am shooting a 3.2 for prone on a normal length barrel on the USAS 50m smallbore bull (international sized black) but I have been doing this for a while so my hold is pretty decent most days.
For NRA competition you are allowed vision correction built into the sights, for specialized shooting glasses a quick rule of thumb is your distance prescription with an additional +0.25 to +0.50 diopters but working with an optician, especially one who understands shooting is highly recommended.
Good Luck
'Dude
Looks like Tim has you pretty well set in terms of the mechanics of the sights. Just a few things to add:
If you poke about on this site, gun broker, guns america and ebay it is not uncommon to find Anschutz sights, especially rear sights for sale. Expect to pay around $150 for an older used Anschutz rear sight in good condition. The front sight might be a little more problematic as I don't see anywhere near the number of front sights for sale as rear. You also need the one that mounts to the 19xx and 20xx front dovetail. For prone shooting you will also occasionally find a rear sight that has had the front 1.5 or so inches of rail clipped off so the sights can be moved further forward. (recognizable from the distance as there will be only one clamping screw) For prone shooting, this would be ideal.
Tim mentioned a 3.6 to 4.0 front aperture, this would be a decent starting point but as the aiming black for NRA targets is smaller than the international target used most places so going smaller on the aperture might be necessary. Also, if you add a bloop tube you will need a larger aperture. I think I am shooting a 3.2 for prone on a normal length barrel on the USAS 50m smallbore bull (international sized black) but I have been doing this for a while so my hold is pretty decent most days.
For NRA competition you are allowed vision correction built into the sights, for specialized shooting glasses a quick rule of thumb is your distance prescription with an additional +0.25 to +0.50 diopters but working with an optician, especially one who understands shooting is highly recommended.
Good Luck
'Dude
Re: help a noob with aperture sights please....
If you want to make a day trip over to Memphis one weekend I'll put you behind an Annie with irons or set your rifle up to experiment with the bloop tube, front and rear apertures, filters plus I have a set of test lenses to determine the sight correction. If you aren't in a hurry to buy sights you are welcome to shoot the March prone 1600 match. Give some thought to your budget. A tuner / bloop tube, Right sight, Warner rear sight, risers, rear iris and shooting frames can add up to more than a rifle.
Have you shot at Chattanooga? ... another option with friendly folks that will help.
Mark
Have you shot at Chattanooga? ... another option with friendly folks that will help.
Mark
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Bob Smalser
- Posts: 113
- Joined: Sat Aug 24, 2013 11:26 pm
- Location: Seabeck, Washington
- Contact:
Re: help a noob with aperture sights please....
The best value today for US shooters in aperture sights are the surplus Kimber 82G sights that were manufactured in Australia, and discarded by the benchrest crowd after acquiring the rifle. These 10-click sights (10 clicks per revolution of the adjustment knobs, for a 1/4 or 1/5 minute change) are as good as any 10-click Anschutz in quality of construction and repeatablilty, are made to fit the 11mm European receiver rail, and are threaded for Anschutz and Gehmann adjustable irises. Do saved searches for them on eBay and Gunbroker. They usually can be had for around 75 bucks, but I've paid as little as 50 for them.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/301444515319?_t ... EBIDX%3AIT
For front sights, the best value are the aluminum Tompkins copies made for Creedmoor Sports. These are threaded for Gehmann and Annie adjustable apertures, and are relatively inexpensive.
http://www.creedmoorsports.com/shop/Front_Sights/
I prefer the 22mm with internal bubble level for outdoor shooting, because reading conditions such as wind flags and the bubble level can all be done looking through through the business end of the sight. Convenient, efficient and focused. To mount these, you'll need to buy an adapter, as the sight grooves on your barrel are wider than the standard 3/8" dovetail block these were designed for. You may also need a riser block on the rear sight to achieve the the sight heights necessary to allow a 40-50 click elevation adjustment to 100 yards. Or you can save all that trouble and buy the Anschutz front sight and level made for your rifle at greater cost.
http://www.champchoice.com/store/Main.a ... tem=004275
http://www.ebay.com/itm/301444515319?_t ... EBIDX%3AIT
For front sights, the best value are the aluminum Tompkins copies made for Creedmoor Sports. These are threaded for Gehmann and Annie adjustable apertures, and are relatively inexpensive.
http://www.creedmoorsports.com/shop/Front_Sights/
I prefer the 22mm with internal bubble level for outdoor shooting, because reading conditions such as wind flags and the bubble level can all be done looking through through the business end of the sight. Convenient, efficient and focused. To mount these, you'll need to buy an adapter, as the sight grooves on your barrel are wider than the standard 3/8" dovetail block these were designed for. You may also need a riser block on the rear sight to achieve the the sight heights necessary to allow a 40-50 click elevation adjustment to 100 yards. Or you can save all that trouble and buy the Anschutz front sight and level made for your rifle at greater cost.
http://www.champchoice.com/store/Main.a ... tem=004275
Bob
Re: help a noob with aperture sights please....
patriot wrote:If you want to make a day trip over to Memphis one weekend I'll put you behind an Annie with irons or set your rifle up to experiment with the bloop tube, front and rear apertures, filters plus I have a set of test lenses to determine the sight correction. If you aren't in a hurry to buy sights you are welcome to shoot the March prone 1600 match. Give some thought to your budget. A tuner / bloop tube, Right sight, Warner rear sight, risers, rear iris and shooting frames can add up to more than a rifle.
Have you shot at Chattanooga? ... another option with friendly folks that will help.
Mark
Thanks for the offer! I may take you up on it one of these days. Chattanooga was where I shot the couple of times that I have. A couple of guys and the range caller were very nice. First trip down I shot with my CMP sporter stuff just to watch and participate. Did okay I guess for the gear. Second time I took my annie and shot a lot better. Also got some good advice on my new sling and the distance for the sling stop. Since then I have gotten a shooting coat and pads. Almost all the guys there shoot apertures. I feel out of place with the scope. I also want to shoot the state championships later in the summer. Do such events have a scope classification? different equipment classification? or is it all the same?
Re: help a noob with aperture sights please....
BOB,
thanks! I'm going to see if i can find some of those. Thanks for posting. Very helpful.
thanks! I'm going to see if i can find some of those. Thanks for posting. Very helpful.
Re: help a noob with aperture sights please....
The state championship is a 1600 irons on Saturday then a 1600 any (scope or irons - your choice) Sunday. You can shoot scope Saturday but your score will be tossed (unless you are F-Class). If I remember correctly it was early May this year. Their monthly match is most likely an any sight match.
IMO you are better off shooting scope while you are building your position. Shooting irons makes it difficult to see what you are doing wrong plus it is more difficult to read the wind. But a few folks are naturals with irons. Once you are shooting 197-198 at 100 yards consistently its time to switch to irons (unless you lose your bearings).
Mark
IMO you are better off shooting scope while you are building your position. Shooting irons makes it difficult to see what you are doing wrong plus it is more difficult to read the wind. But a few folks are naturals with irons. Once you are shooting 197-198 at 100 yards consistently its time to switch to irons (unless you lose your bearings).
Mark
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Bob Smalser
- Posts: 113
- Joined: Sat Aug 24, 2013 11:26 pm
- Location: Seabeck, Washington
- Contact:
Re: help a noob with aperture sights please....
Actually, in training marksmen it's the scope that's the mistake. They don't train your eye, and unless you have a spendy one that can be adjusted for perfect parallax, even inexperienced competitors can score better with irons.
Minor nearsightedness is a non issue, providing no astigmatism or dominance issues, and often is even an advantage, as prescription lenses can be fine-tuned to improve eyesight over the 20-20 crowd not as used to wearing glasses. Just make sure you wear glasses configured to place the sweet spot of the lens behind the sight while in position. If you don't want to spend money on the specialized Knoblock-style lenses and frames, a good set of Post 4's will work just fine for both shooting and general use.
http://post4sportglasses.com/
Minor nearsightedness is a non issue, providing no astigmatism or dominance issues, and often is even an advantage, as prescription lenses can be fine-tuned to improve eyesight over the 20-20 crowd not as used to wearing glasses. Just make sure you wear glasses configured to place the sweet spot of the lens behind the sight while in position. If you don't want to spend money on the specialized Knoblock-style lenses and frames, a good set of Post 4's will work just fine for both shooting and general use.
http://post4sportglasses.com/
Bob
Re: help a noob with aperture sights please....
Bob,
For juniors or younger shooters, irons. But for older shooters scope. Have you coached smallbore?
A friend lost a year because he was pushed into irons before he had the position fundamentals down. He became very frustrated; couldn't see how critical all the pressures were (cheek, shoulder, sling...). I've been shooting irons since college varsity smallbore, but when I took six months last year to rebuild my position I went back to the scope in order to see exactly the hold and follow through. (trying to get that elusive 1600) Why would parallax be an issue with a target scope? I shoot 35X; not everyone's cup of tea. But those days when it locks up there is nothing more fun than being able to hold on a bullet hole at 100.
Mark
For juniors or younger shooters, irons. But for older shooters scope. Have you coached smallbore?
A friend lost a year because he was pushed into irons before he had the position fundamentals down. He became very frustrated; couldn't see how critical all the pressures were (cheek, shoulder, sling...). I've been shooting irons since college varsity smallbore, but when I took six months last year to rebuild my position I went back to the scope in order to see exactly the hold and follow through. (trying to get that elusive 1600) Why would parallax be an issue with a target scope? I shoot 35X; not everyone's cup of tea. But those days when it locks up there is nothing more fun than being able to hold on a bullet hole at 100.
Mark
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Bob Smalser
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- Joined: Sat Aug 24, 2013 11:26 pm
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- Contact:
Re: help a noob with aperture sights please....
Coaching and competition experience? Yes. Several disciplines, to include precision small-bore. ;)
I don't disagree at all that there are folks with vision problems who can't achieve the compromise focus between front sight and target and require a scope. But those situations aren't near as common as shooters not starting off in a discipline that trains the eyes as well as the body, and I cringe a bit every time I see a youngster at the bench with a scoped 10/22. Because that youngster is achieving nothing to train his eyes for eventual shotgun and pistol as well as rifle, in addition to not gaining any understanding of position shooting for even the most elemental field use of any firearm.
I don't disagree at all that there are folks with vision problems who can't achieve the compromise focus between front sight and target and require a scope. But those situations aren't near as common as shooters not starting off in a discipline that trains the eyes as well as the body, and I cringe a bit every time I see a youngster at the bench with a scoped 10/22. Because that youngster is achieving nothing to train his eyes for eventual shotgun and pistol as well as rifle, in addition to not gaining any understanding of position shooting for even the most elemental field use of any firearm.
Last edited by Bob Smalser on Sat Dec 27, 2014 6:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Bob
Re: help a noob with aperture sights please....
Patriot,
I am going to join Bob Smalser's camp on this. Except for rare occasions getting started with iron sights is usually for the best.
Yes, you are correct, once you have a handle on things, having a scope can help you diagnose subtle issues with NPA, hold, release, consistency of follow through, all of those things. Scopes for new shooters can encourage poor trigger control and follow though and if not set up properly can lead to openly depressing results.
While you dismiss the idea that parallax can be an issue, I have spent entire afternoons helping noobs set up a scope. Folks with zero idea of how to get the crosshairs focused, how to get the parallax out of the system and how to adjust for proper eye relief. Put this on top of trying to learn a position and keep it consistent and you can easily add to complexity and frustration. Iron sights have zero of the problems that optics can bring.
Now, Fields is going to need to make his own decisions, as to what he wants to pursue. Not having irons will automatically eliminate him from any USAS type competition. The Kimber sights Bob pointed out are certainly easy on the budget, I would be interested in seeing how they stacked up against the Anschutz sights of similar design. You mentioned Warner sights, there are others out there, Centra and Hammerli come to mind, an old set of Gates if you get lucky, all fine, not just fine but excellent sights but also typically on the plus side of $500 and the extra precision is not necessary for a new shooter.
Just my 2 cents
'Dude
I am going to join Bob Smalser's camp on this. Except for rare occasions getting started with iron sights is usually for the best.
Yes, you are correct, once you have a handle on things, having a scope can help you diagnose subtle issues with NPA, hold, release, consistency of follow through, all of those things. Scopes for new shooters can encourage poor trigger control and follow though and if not set up properly can lead to openly depressing results.
While you dismiss the idea that parallax can be an issue, I have spent entire afternoons helping noobs set up a scope. Folks with zero idea of how to get the crosshairs focused, how to get the parallax out of the system and how to adjust for proper eye relief. Put this on top of trying to learn a position and keep it consistent and you can easily add to complexity and frustration. Iron sights have zero of the problems that optics can bring.
Now, Fields is going to need to make his own decisions, as to what he wants to pursue. Not having irons will automatically eliminate him from any USAS type competition. The Kimber sights Bob pointed out are certainly easy on the budget, I would be interested in seeing how they stacked up against the Anschutz sights of similar design. You mentioned Warner sights, there are others out there, Centra and Hammerli come to mind, an old set of Gates if you get lucky, all fine, not just fine but excellent sights but also typically on the plus side of $500 and the extra precision is not necessary for a new shooter.
Just my 2 cents
'Dude
Re: help a noob with aperture sights please....
Opposing viewpoints makes any conversation more informational. Thanks for all who replied.
All this has turned me onto a lot of new informational sites and coaching advice. I've gotten too late of a start on shooting competitions to even dream of Olympic level shooting. I'm enjoying the h*** out of these new to me precision shooting disciplines. I feel that my trigger nut can handle some more to bite off. Unfortunately, I have no one local to help me out much. I can drive down to Bryan Knights some for occasional help. He doesn't coach for hire, but did get me started in all this stuff.
Starting where I can afford to....adjustable Centra glass front sight with pink(researched/no experience) and at least 3MOA space? No plans to use a bloop tube. Is that available now, or am I headed down a rabbit hole? Course of fire at CRC is dewar and 100y. Is the aforementioned MCS 22 a better start? I'm wanting to buy ONCE and not have to trade up/around every month.
Tim, sights at 4.0? for outdoors 50/100 or should i shoot for some adjustable model? Not quite sure my direction with the rear yet. Haven't figured out the adjustability aspects of the iris and magnification. help please?
All this has turned me onto a lot of new informational sites and coaching advice. I've gotten too late of a start on shooting competitions to even dream of Olympic level shooting. I'm enjoying the h*** out of these new to me precision shooting disciplines. I feel that my trigger nut can handle some more to bite off. Unfortunately, I have no one local to help me out much. I can drive down to Bryan Knights some for occasional help. He doesn't coach for hire, but did get me started in all this stuff.
Starting where I can afford to....adjustable Centra glass front sight with pink(researched/no experience) and at least 3MOA space? No plans to use a bloop tube. Is that available now, or am I headed down a rabbit hole? Course of fire at CRC is dewar and 100y. Is the aforementioned MCS 22 a better start? I'm wanting to buy ONCE and not have to trade up/around every month.
Tim, sights at 4.0? for outdoors 50/100 or should i shoot for some adjustable model? Not quite sure my direction with the rear yet. Haven't figured out the adjustability aspects of the iris and magnification. help please?
Last edited by fieldsj66 on Sat Dec 27, 2014 7:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Wynne G Oldman
- Posts: 175
- Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2014 4:36 pm
- Location: Bury, Lancashire, England.
Re: help a noob with aperture sights please....
I'd just like to say that this thread is another shining example of how bloody good this forum is, and what a decent bunch of folks the target shooting community are. A wealth of extremely useful information has been given in reply to the OP's question, in a polite and helpful manner, without the condescension that can be found on some other forums on the internet. Well done to all, and thank you for sharing your knowledge. I certainly appreciate it, and find it very useful. Thanks again.
Morini 162 EI
Anschutz 1913 Supermatch
Anschutz 1913 Supermatch