Shooting with scope

[redschietti]

Ok, I know ISSF doesn't allow scopes, but I suspect most of us shoot with one from time to time.

Everything I read says focus on the front sight. What do you focus on when you shoot with a scope? When I start to watch the scope bounce with in the ISSF ten ring I almost invariably shoot a 9. When I kinda zone out, its usually a ten. What should I be focusing on? I have an unertle scope, 16X, with just cross hairs. Would some sort of "dot" be better?

Back ground, if it matters, Been shooting prone just 13 months, but two NRA matches this year were 1593 and 96.

Thanks!!

[Andre]

Some NRA matches allow scopes *cough* Perry *cough*

First you need to setup the scope properly, including mounting it correctly, focusing the reticle (different than focusing the target).

Then focus the target in. When shooting with a scope it helps to look at the target more than the reticle. And as you said, you might want to zone out a little. Focusing on something too much shooting anything anyway can be a bad thing. One of my shooting friends shoots his best score when he is playing a song in his head. Don't be oblivious to shooting but try not to concentrate too hard is my advise, even though you didn't ask for it haha.

If you focus on the reticle too much you'll go crazy.

Happy shooting.

[Bob Smalser]

After almost 50 years of doing this professionally (I spent most of my life as a line infantryman and competition rifle coach.), my Junior Small-Borers today usually don't understand when I tell them that when the light is good, they can shoot much better and much easier with irons than with scopes.

You need the right scope (bring money), the right mounting, the correct parallax adjustment, the correct crosshairs focus, the correct (firm and consistent) cheek weld, the correct eye relief, and the correct hold, break and followthrough. If precision is your goal, scope use requires all the same techniques as irons, except they can be fussier...their only real advantage being enhanced lighting and magnification.

[redschietti]

Thanks for the informative replies, but my question is still unanswered.

In Irons my eye focuses on the front sight, the bull is out of focus but centered.

In scope, what should my eye be focused on? The X ring? The crosshairs?

Bob, I always enjoy your projects!

[justadude]

Telling someone how to set up an shoot a scope via a forum is probably akin to trying to teach a pig to sing. But I will give it a shot.

First the discussion about setting up the scope. This has to be done in order.

Before you ever put the scope on the rifle, focus the crosshairs. Point the scope at a cloudy sky (never ever ever toward the sun) loosen the locking ring for the rear part of the scope tube and start screwing the tube back and forth. You will find a point where the crosshairs are the sharpest. Run the locking ring down. The optical focus for the crosshairs (reticle in official language) is now set. This will not change unless your eyeglass prescription changes.

Next, set the parallax, you will have different parallax settings for different distances, 50yds, 50m, 100yds. For this you need to mount the scope on the rifle and be able to put the rifle in a rest. Place the rifle on the firing line as close to where it is located (in a forward and back sense) when you are shooting prone. Adjust the rest until the crosshairs rest somewhere on a well defined mark on the target. Now, without touching the rifle, look through the scope and move your head from side to side. When starting, you will likely see the crosshairs move in relation to the target. (Clearly this is not good.) Now, notice which way the target appears to move. If the target appears to move with your eye then the objective (front end of the scope) is focused in front of the target. If the motion is away from the direction of eye movement then you are focused behind the target. Screw the front adjustment in and out until this apparent target movement with eye movement is zero or at least as small as you can get it. Also for the front objective be sure to set the locking ring each time as this is for many scopes what really sets the focus. Now, get everything locked down and also, for your parallax adjustment, write it down.

At this point your reticle and target come to an optical focus at the same place inside the scope. You have created a 2D image from the 3D world. Optically there is only one plane to focus on.

Now, for what I am concentrating on when looking through the scope? My main attention is usually on a bullet hole or some other feature on the target with the crosshairs secondary.

'Dude

[Rover]

Being a pistol shooter, I found "justadudes" explanation fascinating. I now know why Brian Zins tells pistol Red Dot users to focus on the target rather than the dot.

I knew how to set up a scope, but never gave the rest any thought.

[ABoyd57946]

Hello,
I'll preface my comments with this is what I do and I recommend finding your own path. I am shooting high Expert scores now knocking on Master class in NRA SB prone. There are better shooters than I that have already commented. To my advantage I have shot scope for almost a year now and want to pay the help forward I was given.

Ok where to focus. I was taught to look at the crosshairs once the scope was properly set up. That works for me and allows me to shade in the wind. I can effectively hold off with this firing 10s and Xs. "Zoning out" also sounds like it works for you so keep that up. I do something where I get my NPA focus on the crosshairs in the X ring then wait for my hold to settle. The shot breaks almost without thought. The trick I found with a scope is accept your wobble area and press on with your shot if your wobble area is in your normal hold size. If you try to get a rock steady hold you will go nuts. So relax and let it go. Work holding exercises to slow your hold and make it smaller. SCATT was my friend with this and is something I still do.

As for setup that was addressed earlier in more detail than I can offer so I'll defer to those who know.

Thanks, Tony

[justadude]

"Zoning out" is one way to put it. It is very easy to overthink the shot process, regardless of whether you are shooting scope or irons. Lanny Bassham, "With Winning in Mind" discusses this in some detail.

I will point out here, that Boyd talks about holding dead center on the X ring. Most top scope shooters avoid this approach, especially at 50yds and 50m the group in the x ring tends to become larger and slightly off center. This gives you an indefinite point to hold on, and the fact that the apparent visual center is changing with each shot is not a help.

Better to have your zero a click or two off and hold at some specific point on the edge of the X ring or 10 ring, or if you have a single shot a bit out of the group those offer nice contrast and can be a nice size. The problem with a single bullet hole is that when you move to the next bull, that bullet hole does not come with the move.

'Dude

[gwsb]

Dude your pig is singing opera. You did a great job of explaining scope set up.

There are several things to chew on mentally in this post.

1. As Dude pointed out when the scope is adjusted properly you have a 2 D picture that your eye automatically focuses on.

2. You should never accept a "wobble area" in prone especially when shooting scope. In fact there should be no wobble. The only movement should be from pulse. The shot should be broken at the bottom of the pulse beat. That makes the only variables in group size ammo, rifle and wind.

3. As Dude says most shooters don't aim for the center of the x ring. That is too big and has no fixed point. I personally start out zeroing on the x line at 4 o'clock. That makes the center of my group hopefully about 2 clicks up and left. As the target develops you will find yourself changing the aiming area slightly to keep your group centered. Most shooters seldom hold the same place for many consecutive shots. On 5 bull targets at short range I ignore the center of the sighter bull and start the zeroing process by aiming at the ring number on the left side. That way when I begin the record bulls I only have to go directly down, not down and left.

4. Andre almost all American conventional smallbore prone matches have a scope component. Also, there is no smallbore shooting at Camp Perry and I do not expect that it will ever return.

[ABoyd57946]

Hello dude and gwsb,
Thanks for the clarification. :) I'll take that feedback re hold and focus and apply to my own training. Good to learn new things. Thanks again. :). Sincerely. Tony

[bugman1955]

I have always found it easier holding on a white line(x ring) over a dark void (center of x ring).

[justadude]

@gwsb: Thanks for the props. I never thought about a pig singing opera, that would be quite the sight.

Scopes are interesting things, properly setup they can be a huge benefit for sighting, reading wind, and spotting shots and all while never taking your head off of the stock.

It is nice to get the nod from people on this board that some of my postings might be helpful.

I certainly took my licks as a junior from a scope that I did not understand and was not set up correctly. What a difference 40 years makes! In more ways than one... ugh!

'Dude

[mobarron]

A COMMENT ON GWSB'S "there should be no wobble." That may be true for some shooters but it's not true for me and I suspect quite a few others - particularly older shooters. I'd love to have no movement of the crosshairs except for the pulse bump but I've been stuck with a 10 to 4 o'clock wobble for 40+years that was once a quarter and now approaches half to three-quarters of the x-ring. My technique is to center the movement in the x-ring with my npa, concentrate on relaxing so that the movement is at a minimum and break the shot. It's amazing to me how often the shot will break right in the middle of the x-ring. If you're lucky enough to have no movement, enjoy it. But don't give up because your hold isn't that good. You can shoot very, very well with movement. Mike Barron

[Bob Smalser]

... Also for the front objective be sure to set the locking ring each time as this is for many scopes what really sets the focus. Now, get everything locked down and also, for your parallax adjustment, write it down.

At this point your reticle and target come to an optical focus at the same place inside the scope. You have created a 2D image from the 3D world. Optically there is only one plane to focus on.

Ditto that and well-described. On many scopes, especially those with a center parallax adjustment, the parallax isn't set until the locking ring (which is what actually moves the tube to change the distance between front and rear lenses) is tightened. Understanding that will save lots of time and frustration understanding both focus and parallax.

Further, early scopes like the Weaver T-Series have their parallax adjustments indexed as micrometer settings, and later scopes have them registered in yardage with micrometer settings in between. Machts nichts, as yardage settings are only a starting point, depending on variations in individual systems. Do and redo the crosshairs and target-moving drills until you are comfortable with your scope settings at the ranges you'll compete at, and be sure to write them down and adjust them as necessary for different weather and light conditions.

As I said, irons are simpler and easier for most shooters.

[gwsb]

Bob thats right about the locking rings. I once knew a shooter many years ago who didn't tighten the locking ring, I think on a Redfield 3200 and couldn't understand why he was shooting the range up.

Also as you said the yardage marks are just a guide. Use them to start the adjustment process and each scope is different.