Hi all
I've dropping an average of two points per card that I can't call. These missed shots are mostly low at seven o'clock and into the nine or even 8 occasionally (25 yds indoor prone). I'm beginning to think that a flinch in the shoulder is the cause and pushing the shots low.
Therefore my question is does anyone have a techniques to stop me flinching? I've tried ear plugs and ear defenders to block out as much noise as possible but hasn't helped.
Any help is greatly appreciated.
Thanks Bryan
Flinching
Moderators: pilkguns, Marcus, m1963, David Levene, Spencer
Bryan,
Have you tried dry firing exercises before firing live? This is often a good way of relaxing mind and body, so you don't try to anticipate the shot.
You say that the off-call shots fall at 7 o'clock. From what direction do you approach the target as you exhale? 7 o'clock is a common approach for a right handed shooter, so there could be issues with your alignment on the target as well as your trigger technique/timing. Do you check that your NPA is correctly centred after moving to each new target? It could be that the rifle is pointing a little low on these targets, and that you are pushing it up into the middle to aim.
Normally I'd expect too much pressure with the right shoulder to push shots high and left.
To look at trigger technique for a moment, I apologise if I'm preaching to the choir here, but good trigger technique starts with your hand. The butt should be the right length that the hand can reach the grip with no straining or cramping. Ideally the wrist should be straight, as a kink will affect the tendons to the finger; this isn't always possible due to the shape of the grip and butt - BSA Internationals tend to put the hand high, and kink the wrist. The hand itself needs to hold the grip so that the pad of your index finger falls comfortably on the blade. Variation in hand placement will alter trigger placement on the blade. Grip pressure should also be consistent, and not so great to fight the recoil. The trigger finger must not touch the stock or the triggerguard. The trigger itself should be adjusted so the release weight and travel are consistent, and not too light/heavy/long/short for you.
Are you confident that your grip is consistent, and that can release the trigger exactly when you want to? In addition to dry firing practise, maybe a little time spent adjusting the trigger would help. If you haven't done this before, ask an experienced member of your club for help, or read the manual thoroughly; if you haven't got one the Anschutz website has them downloadable in PDF form, all free.
This may not be needed in your case, but some shooters will mould the grip with putty to guide their hand into just the right spot. The same can be done with the trigger blade too; if you find it difficult to locate your finger consistently on the blade, perhaps a difference shape would help? There are any number of blades with buttons, or small curved shoes that offer a more precise location if required.
Alternatively there could be other causes, like inconsistent head placement on the cheekpiece, the rifle butt being slightly loose in your shoulder, and others.
Have you tried dry firing exercises before firing live? This is often a good way of relaxing mind and body, so you don't try to anticipate the shot.
You say that the off-call shots fall at 7 o'clock. From what direction do you approach the target as you exhale? 7 o'clock is a common approach for a right handed shooter, so there could be issues with your alignment on the target as well as your trigger technique/timing. Do you check that your NPA is correctly centred after moving to each new target? It could be that the rifle is pointing a little low on these targets, and that you are pushing it up into the middle to aim.
Normally I'd expect too much pressure with the right shoulder to push shots high and left.
To look at trigger technique for a moment, I apologise if I'm preaching to the choir here, but good trigger technique starts with your hand. The butt should be the right length that the hand can reach the grip with no straining or cramping. Ideally the wrist should be straight, as a kink will affect the tendons to the finger; this isn't always possible due to the shape of the grip and butt - BSA Internationals tend to put the hand high, and kink the wrist. The hand itself needs to hold the grip so that the pad of your index finger falls comfortably on the blade. Variation in hand placement will alter trigger placement on the blade. Grip pressure should also be consistent, and not so great to fight the recoil. The trigger finger must not touch the stock or the triggerguard. The trigger itself should be adjusted so the release weight and travel are consistent, and not too light/heavy/long/short for you.
Are you confident that your grip is consistent, and that can release the trigger exactly when you want to? In addition to dry firing practise, maybe a little time spent adjusting the trigger would help. If you haven't done this before, ask an experienced member of your club for help, or read the manual thoroughly; if you haven't got one the Anschutz website has them downloadable in PDF form, all free.
This may not be needed in your case, but some shooters will mould the grip with putty to guide their hand into just the right spot. The same can be done with the trigger blade too; if you find it difficult to locate your finger consistently on the blade, perhaps a difference shape would help? There are any number of blades with buttons, or small curved shoes that offer a more precise location if required.
Alternatively there could be other causes, like inconsistent head placement on the cheekpiece, the rifle butt being slightly loose in your shoulder, and others.
Last edited by Tim S on Sat Aug 02, 2014 7:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
Thanks for the input Tim.
I'm confident that it's not an NPA issue as I'm unable to call these shots after the follow through (there are other missed shots that I can easily call!!). I'm also quite fanatical about checking position before shooting. Its getting frustrating that these shots are all going in the same place and, at times, are the only thing between a 98 and a perfect card. I've tried to replicate the issue by tensing the shoulder, changing my tigger finger position, jeking the trigger, moving my head etc, and haven't had any luck. Thats lead me to think I might have an involuntary flinch every now again thats forcing the muzzel low left.
I'll admit I dont dry fire much so that might be the answer, with a baby at home I don't seem to have the time or room to set up in the evenings.
cheers
Bryan
I'm confident that it's not an NPA issue as I'm unable to call these shots after the follow through (there are other missed shots that I can easily call!!). I'm also quite fanatical about checking position before shooting. Its getting frustrating that these shots are all going in the same place and, at times, are the only thing between a 98 and a perfect card. I've tried to replicate the issue by tensing the shoulder, changing my tigger finger position, jeking the trigger, moving my head etc, and haven't had any luck. Thats lead me to think I might have an involuntary flinch every now again thats forcing the muzzel low left.
I'll admit I dont dry fire much so that might be the answer, with a baby at home I don't seem to have the time or room to set up in the evenings.
cheers
Bryan
Bryan,
when you say you can't call the 7o'clock shots, do you mean that you called them as centres, or that the recoil is totally different each time, i.e. that you have no idea where the shot could have gone?
Also, have you noticed any pattern to the shots? It's pretty common to muck up the first and last shots. Do these occur at a similar point on the target? For example, it's not unknown to drop a shot low-left on the middle right diagram, due to over-adjusting. Out of interest what's your path around the card?
You can dry fire at the range. You might try a card where you dry fire before shooting each shot.
when you say you can't call the 7o'clock shots, do you mean that you called them as centres, or that the recoil is totally different each time, i.e. that you have no idea where the shot could have gone?
Also, have you noticed any pattern to the shots? It's pretty common to muck up the first and last shots. Do these occur at a similar point on the target? For example, it's not unknown to drop a shot low-left on the middle right diagram, due to over-adjusting. Out of interest what's your path around the card?
You can dry fire at the range. You might try a card where you dry fire before shooting each shot.
Re: Flinching
Hi BryanBryan996 wrote:Hi all
I've dropping an average of two points per card that I can't call. These missed shots are mostly low at seven o'clock and into the nine or even 8 occasionally (25 yds indoor prone). I'm beginning to think that a flinch in the shoulder is the cause and pushing the shots low.
Therefore my question is does anyone have a techniques to stop me flinching? I've tried ear plugs and ear defenders to block out as much noise as possible but hasn't helped.
Any help is greatly appreciated.
Thanks Bryan
I had this a while ago couldn't call the shots and they were dropping low like you 9 and 8's at 50m. For me it was my follow through or flinching with my head. Not 100% sure which it was but I cured it by exaggerating my follow through this seemed to solve the problem. Tried to look through the shot and have a long follow through.
Henry
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clamdigger
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I used to trapshoot a lot and developed a flinch that adversely affected my standing in highpower rifle matches. I had to stop shooting trap all together and then it took about five years to get rid of the flinch. Dry firing did not help at all because the flinch would appear during matches when you anticipate the shot and tense up when pulling the trigger. The only thing that helped me was to shoot smallbore standing with a scope so that I would see the movement and could focus on a longer follow through. Flinching seemed to come when I was anticipating the recoil and although there is little recoil with .22LR or .223, your mind still seems to associate it with a 12 gauge recoil. It takes a while to retrain your mind.
In trap many people switch to a release trigger to alleviate the flinch in trap shooting. Never tried a release trigger since they scare the heck out of me.
In trap many people switch to a release trigger to alleviate the flinch in trap shooting. Never tried a release trigger since they scare the heck out of me.
I used to have some flinch with my Anschutz 1914 when I started shooting it, I hate to say it. Shooting air rifle and pistol has nearly eliminated it though. I shoot probably 3 times more air than smallbore, both in precision and sporter.
I recommend shooting air. Dry firing didn't help a flinch for me, I flinched while dry firing......
I recommend shooting air. Dry firing didn't help a flinch for me, I flinched while dry firing......
Andre,
out of interest, how would you say that shootinr AR would help where dry firing .22 cannot?
From a practical point of view, the OP is shooting prone at 25 yards on British multi-bull targets. The additional effort of setting up an air rifle for 25 yard prone, and adjusting to the differences in fit, and trigger release, and loading if a PCP is not available may outweight the lack of recoil to anticipate.
out of interest, how would you say that shootinr AR would help where dry firing .22 cannot?
From a practical point of view, the OP is shooting prone at 25 yards on British multi-bull targets. The additional effort of setting up an air rifle for 25 yard prone, and adjusting to the differences in fit, and trigger release, and loading if a PCP is not available may outweight the lack of recoil to anticipate.
I believe shooting air is better because you can see your mistakes, although you can do that with a training system but I don't know if the OP has one.Tim S wrote:Andre,
out of interest, how would you say that shootinr AR would help where dry firing .22 cannot?
From a practical point of view, the OP is shooting prone at 25 yards on British multi-bull targets. The additional effort of setting up an air rifle for 25 yard prone, and adjusting to the differences in fit, and trigger release, and loading if a PCP is not available may outweight the lack of recoil to anticipate.
If he doesn't have an air rifle I can fully understand that, then a trainer is a better option.
I happen to shoot precision air too, so I guess I'm a little bias on the subject.
Bryan996:
I suggest two things to check. Both are practical methods of identifying and curing these undetectable flinches.
1. If you have a Scatt or Noptel use it to check your heartbeat shake on the trace. It will show up as a regular shaped trace in time with the beat - surprise!!
I had the problem for years of losing shots at 10 11 oclock. The first time I got behind a Scatt it showed me the pulse shooting the rifle up in that direction - and out of the bull! I immediately saw the benefit of training to shoot on the quiet period of the heartbeat. That is, as close to the next beat as you can get. Watching the Scatt trace told me that that point had the smallest "knitting".
2. An exercise I teach to demonstrate what "relaxed" means when shooting s as follows:
Sit on a table chair that has armrests where you can rest your forearms horizontally. Lift you arms off the armrests about 100mm straight up keeping them horizontal. Wait for about 10 seconds and drop your forearms onto the armrests. After a couple of times it will become obvious that it is the shoulder muscles that lift the arms up - not the arm muscles. Once that is realised, repeat and feel the load come off the shoulder muscles as the arms are dropped. Repeat many times. Feel the immediate relief. I can vouch that that is how your shoulders need to be when you fire the shot.
Tension in the shoulder area has to be released. It is an exercise that can easily remind you of the feeling required.
I suggest two things to check. Both are practical methods of identifying and curing these undetectable flinches.
1. If you have a Scatt or Noptel use it to check your heartbeat shake on the trace. It will show up as a regular shaped trace in time with the beat - surprise!!
I had the problem for years of losing shots at 10 11 oclock. The first time I got behind a Scatt it showed me the pulse shooting the rifle up in that direction - and out of the bull! I immediately saw the benefit of training to shoot on the quiet period of the heartbeat. That is, as close to the next beat as you can get. Watching the Scatt trace told me that that point had the smallest "knitting".
2. An exercise I teach to demonstrate what "relaxed" means when shooting s as follows:
Sit on a table chair that has armrests where you can rest your forearms horizontally. Lift you arms off the armrests about 100mm straight up keeping them horizontal. Wait for about 10 seconds and drop your forearms onto the armrests. After a couple of times it will become obvious that it is the shoulder muscles that lift the arms up - not the arm muscles. Once that is realised, repeat and feel the load come off the shoulder muscles as the arms are dropped. Repeat many times. Feel the immediate relief. I can vouch that that is how your shoulders need to be when you fire the shot.
Tension in the shoulder area has to be released. It is an exercise that can easily remind you of the feeling required.
Thank you everyone for all your feedback.
I was down the club on Tuesday and shot a 100, 99 and 98. Of the three I missed two were low again and one was high that I was able to call and i'm certain it was positional. I showed the cards to the club coach (now that he's back from the commonwealth games) and he thinks its shoulder tension pushing the muzzle down. So I'll try your exercises RossM and hopefully that will help. I'll also try exaggerating my follow through just incase until I can afford a scatt system.
Thanks again
Bryan
I was down the club on Tuesday and shot a 100, 99 and 98. Of the three I missed two were low again and one was high that I was able to call and i'm certain it was positional. I showed the cards to the club coach (now that he's back from the commonwealth games) and he thinks its shoulder tension pushing the muzzle down. So I'll try your exercises RossM and hopefully that will help. I'll also try exaggerating my follow through just incase until I can afford a scatt system.
Thanks again
Bryan
Re: Flinching
Bryan in the absence of a Scatt/Noptel shooting using a high magnification target scope can also help show you your hold pattern. I was loosing shots at 4 O'clock for years and years, then I tried out a target scope with 40× magnification at 100 yards. I could clearly see the hold pattern and also what was causing my bad uncallable shots. That was down to occasionally shooting at the "wrong" end of the hold pattern caused mainly by pulse. With the scope I stopped doing it too, as there was enough reference to kill the error. I would think that one of the cheap Chinese high mag scopes that you can pick up for air guns would do, if you are only shooting at 25 yards then I would think something offering 24× mag would be enough. It should easily be able to PX down to 25 yards too, while showing you your hold pattern with ease.
Alan
Alan
Re: Flinching
Bryan,
Can you not get to someone or a coaching squad that uses scatt ? There's plenty of options in your neck of the woods. You could also do with a coach fully evaluating your position whilst shooting, you certainly cannot tell if it's a 'loose shoulder' by looking at a shot card, whatever your club coach may have told you. In the mean time though you need to really watch where the gun moves to after recoil, is it identical 100% of the time, or does it vary and if so only on the 'fliers' or other shots as well ?
Rob.
Can you not get to someone or a coaching squad that uses scatt ? There's plenty of options in your neck of the woods. You could also do with a coach fully evaluating your position whilst shooting, you certainly cannot tell if it's a 'loose shoulder' by looking at a shot card, whatever your club coach may have told you. In the mean time though you need to really watch where the gun moves to after recoil, is it identical 100% of the time, or does it vary and if so only on the 'fliers' or other shots as well ?
Rob.