Who wins the competition, the shooter or the grip maker? Is shooting as the Formula 1 of these days, where the car wins and the driver does not matter any more????
I took the first weapon in my hand last September and I started with 320/400. In January I bought the Lp10e and shoot immediately 340/400. I then got the grip made by Cesare Morini and moved to 355-363/400 (that was February).
I have been stuck on that result until May, when at my new shooting club I was told by an Olympic shooter that I was shooting always to the left and that the grip needed a little change. I already knew that as I had noticed that the front sight had a tendency to move to the left of rear sight, which had not happened when Cesare made my grip.
I had already been twice at Cesare to make fine tuning, which had indeed improved my grip, although not made 100% perfect ( I am now afraid that one is never 100% happy with the grip).
So I agreed that this Olympic shooter would make the "little change", whiteout messing up with Cesare's work.
Result.
The grip was profoundly changed!!!!!! Front and rear sights were perfectly aligned..... However I could not shoot more than 20-30/100.
He modified the grip 3 more times and managed to go up to 320-340/400....still below my previous results. The grip looked good, as in the "books", everything looked perfect, but still worst results.
I then bought a used grip, modified for a hand very different from mine, with the purpose of playing myself to modify it.
Nothing was as in the "book" ....however ever since I have it, I shoot easily 93-95/100!!!!!!!
Front and rear sights are perfectly aligned, and do not move at all, really no shaking....still nothing is right, but it gives my the nice feeling of holding a baseball bat firmly in my hand.
Since a month I also own a MGH1 (I will soon write a review), however I have only shot about 700 pellets.
First time I was shooting to the left with bad marks. I then decided to modify myself, that is anyway what I do in my lab for my profession. I immediately jumped to 350/400.
I modified again and I was at 360/400, but still was not happy. So, after carefully examining the contacts between hand and grip, I changed and was happy. So I went to test my work: first day I got 370/400. ( which could have easily been 380/400, if I had concentrated instead of chatting with friends); second day 366/400.
Although I was very happy and din not want to modify this grip anymore, I knew that there was still a little change to be done..... And unfortunately yesterday I did that!...... Result: 340/400!!!!!!!! It was really a little change, definitely improving the grip/hand fit.
So, once again..... my question:
WHO WINS THE COMPETITION?
My reply: 70% the grip artisan; 25% the trigger maker; 5% the idiot who holds the pistol.
May be percentages change when we talk about getting 400/400 instead of 380/400.
Shooting as Formula 1?
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Re: Shooting as Formula 1?
Misleading sentence .... I do not modify grips as a profession!! What I meant is that in my lab I design and build everything, I never use ready on the shelf equipments.therider wrote: I then decided to modify myself, that is anyway what I do in my lab for my profession
Some additional points.
I first heard about holding a grip as a bat from the grip maker at Pardini. My impression is that at Pardini they have a completely different concept of grip as compared to Cesare Morini. May be that is why their grips are larger than others. If I remember right, the Pardini grip maker also told me that the fifth finger has to squeeze the grip. Indeed that is something which helps me. However I wander if it works for everybody, as I have read many times that it should not apply pressure.
When I got my grip modified the first time by the Olympic shooter, my hand was visible trembling, although the grip looked good. So I was only shooting two or three rings.
I wander if somebody else has experienced such a strange trembling.
I have never tried the final version of that grip, although it feels really good in my hand. May be I should have a go....
I have to stop now.... I need to work on the grip and then go to test it! .....this is becoming my nightmare! :-)
The grip can make difference but not as much as you think.
Take revolvers shooting ISSF with .38 special loads as an examlpe, big calibre, medium recoil, needs good hold and follow through.
Shooting a custom orthopaedic grip Vs factory plain rubber combat grip, a good shooter will only gain at the most 5 to 10 points if any.
The custom grip is more forgiving not more accurate, it makes it easier to concentrate on the other basics.
Take revolvers shooting ISSF with .38 special loads as an examlpe, big calibre, medium recoil, needs good hold and follow through.
Shooting a custom orthopaedic grip Vs factory plain rubber combat grip, a good shooter will only gain at the most 5 to 10 points if any.
The custom grip is more forgiving not more accurate, it makes it easier to concentrate on the other basics.
basically. No. One of the things you are experiencing is you are changing things and then as a result your scores are going up. secondly the grip isnt going to help you when under pressure. It is very easy to learn to shoot, not easy to learn to compete. You could have the most perfect fitting grip ever made for a human and unless you can shoot and compete well the grip wont get you anywhere.
I havent been shooting for a couple of years. My father has been a grip maker for probably 35 years. I started shooting with a perfect fitting grip and coaching from a high level shooter. within 18 months I shot a lot of scores very close to 580 so averaging 97s while chatting to frinds while going. I didnt shoot above 564 in comp so once I got under pressure the fact that its probably 90 percent mental and 10 percent physical kind made the grip not really that important
I havent been shooting for a couple of years. My father has been a grip maker for probably 35 years. I started shooting with a perfect fitting grip and coaching from a high level shooter. within 18 months I shot a lot of scores very close to 580 so averaging 97s while chatting to frinds while going. I didnt shoot above 564 in comp so once I got under pressure the fact that its probably 90 percent mental and 10 percent physical kind made the grip not really that important
he same when I first penetrate the 560 I think the grip is perfect score of 580 helped achieve Lol. I started modifying my grip and really fit in the hand. But it turned out very bad results when I tried on the firing range. Once a case modified produce good things in practice but poorly in the tournament. Finally I found the lesson. There is no perfect grip. Quite comfortable grip in the hand approaching (but not too comfortable) and learn effective ways to grip the weapon without changing the front sight when I pull the trigger. So the key for me now is not a comfortable grip, but how to produce the perfect trigger pull. Sometimes I'm a good shot sometimes vice versa, I think it is normal for the pistol shooter. Not because of the pistol grip is wrong.
I am curious as to the OP how many practices matches were done after each grip. It really takes time to get used to even a minute change of grip, let alone a major one like customization.
I feel that has long as the grip is acceptably comfortable it is good enough, the rest is up to practice and muscle memory. If a grip is really wrong then you will be shooting outside the black all the time. But if you shoot close enough (8-10) to the bulls-eye then I think it is just a matter of practice....(in another term, good tight grouping).
Unlike Rover, I think that you CAN buy points. But it is so cost ineffective that there is little point of doing so. Spending 500 Euro for a new grip that is slightly more comfortable may just help you for a few points, which could have been earned by practicing anyway.
There are so many factors involving a pistol that a grip is only one of the components. I remember no matter how hard I tried I could not shoot over 150/600 on a Walther LP300, frequently failing to even reach the target. Later on a friend let me try his Steyr Lp1, and I immediately noticed the difference in feel and weight distribution and everything else, and immediately able to shoot towards the target. So I sold the Walther and got a LP10. While it took me a long time to finally figure out how it works, I never did have the same experience I had with the Walther.
So the Steyr LP10 was old (now owned by scrench), but it was an upgrade and more expensive pistol. Did I buy points? Or did I get a pistol that actually suit me?
Now I am using an LP10e. a drop, then a jump up for practicing so far. I had to sell both my FWB65 and that LP10 to finance the LP10e. Well, I found out that I loved electronic trigger because my two main arms (Morini CM84E and Winzeler 102) are electronic. My follow through improved in a big way, not because I have a new expensive pistol, but because I know how my Winzeler works. They are pretty much the same (one is an FWB system, the other is an Anschutz system) in terms of technique (The winzeler is better). Did I buy points?, or did I just get something more suitable for me?
I could never shoot the FWB65 well. I am sure with more practice I will be able to do better, But I am absolutely positively sure that if I use a FWB90 instead, I will do much better. Same logic.
At the end of the day, it is all about practice. There is no secret.
My two pellets, which seldom if ever land in the inner X.
I feel that has long as the grip is acceptably comfortable it is good enough, the rest is up to practice and muscle memory. If a grip is really wrong then you will be shooting outside the black all the time. But if you shoot close enough (8-10) to the bulls-eye then I think it is just a matter of practice....(in another term, good tight grouping).
Unlike Rover, I think that you CAN buy points. But it is so cost ineffective that there is little point of doing so. Spending 500 Euro for a new grip that is slightly more comfortable may just help you for a few points, which could have been earned by practicing anyway.
There are so many factors involving a pistol that a grip is only one of the components. I remember no matter how hard I tried I could not shoot over 150/600 on a Walther LP300, frequently failing to even reach the target. Later on a friend let me try his Steyr Lp1, and I immediately noticed the difference in feel and weight distribution and everything else, and immediately able to shoot towards the target. So I sold the Walther and got a LP10. While it took me a long time to finally figure out how it works, I never did have the same experience I had with the Walther.
So the Steyr LP10 was old (now owned by scrench), but it was an upgrade and more expensive pistol. Did I buy points? Or did I get a pistol that actually suit me?
Now I am using an LP10e. a drop, then a jump up for practicing so far. I had to sell both my FWB65 and that LP10 to finance the LP10e. Well, I found out that I loved electronic trigger because my two main arms (Morini CM84E and Winzeler 102) are electronic. My follow through improved in a big way, not because I have a new expensive pistol, but because I know how my Winzeler works. They are pretty much the same (one is an FWB system, the other is an Anschutz system) in terms of technique (The winzeler is better). Did I buy points?, or did I just get something more suitable for me?
I could never shoot the FWB65 well. I am sure with more practice I will be able to do better, But I am absolutely positively sure that if I use a FWB90 instead, I will do much better. Same logic.
At the end of the day, it is all about practice. There is no secret.
My two pellets, which seldom if ever land in the inner X.
I once saw one of the worlds top shooters have to borrow a pistol at a world champs because theirs had gone missing in transit. I asked his coach how he would get on with a grip that didn't fit 100% He said "not a problem for the good shooter".
I try to remind myself of that statement whenever I think that something might adversely effect my shooting!
I try to remind myself of that statement whenever I think that something might adversely effect my shooting!
Django rises an interesting point and one which I cannot really understand.django wrote:he same when I first penetrate the 560 I think the grip is perfect score of 580 helped achieve Lol. I started modifying my grip and really fit in the hand. But it turned out very bad results when I tried on the firing range.
In some cases you can find a vicious problem. One of my modifications felt really good but at the range there was a muzzle movement when releasing. It was enough to file the grip to reduce contact between trigger finger and grip and the flipping was gone.
However in other cases there seem to be no explanation .
Some of my grip modifications felt really good; everything 'by the book" and a nice feeling. Front and rear sights naturally aligned, no change in alignment when careful increasing the grip pressure, no flipping of the muzzle when releasing the trigger.
Yet you try it at the range and pellet go all over the target. And I am not talking about competitions.
Any idea?
after many tries at grips i believe that the perfect grip is not the one that fits like a glove but the grip that allows perfect alignment of the sights and perfect release of the shot. i have made a couple of perfect fit grips that were a joy to hold on the target BUT when i tried to move the finger all went absolutely wrong. also in my case the quest for the perfect sight picture with these grips made me hold the pistol for so much time fatigue reward me with multiple eights. having said all that i still not have a good grip. perhaps sometime i will go to cesare like therider did.
I agree with that.ghostrip wrote:after many tries at grips i believe that the perfect grip is not the one that fits like a glove but the grip that allows perfect alignment of the sights and perfect release of the shot. i have made a couple of perfect fit grips that were a joy to hold on the target BUT when i tried to move the finger all went absolutely wrong. also in my case the quest for the perfect sight picture with these grips made me hold the pistol for so much time fatigue reward me with multiple eights. having said all that i still not have a good grip. perhaps sometime i will go to cesare like therider did.
One of the main things which is bothering me is the contact of the grip with the area around the thumb. It seems to me that if the 3rd and 4th finger push the grip against the triangular part of the hand underneath the thumb, any movement of the trigger finger will rotate the pistol.
There are three muscles controlling the thumb there: the adductor, the flexor and the abductor. The adductor is the one which , in my opinion, mostly feels any movement of the tendon of the index finger. Therefore the reaction to the force exerted by the fingers should not be provided by that triangular area, or at least not by the part closer to index finger.
It then remains only the web between thumb and index finger and the bottom part of the hand.
The used grip for the LP10e which I recently bought does not fit my hand and the reaction to fingers pressure is nearly exclusively provided by the web. The grip does not feel as a glove, but the pistol is extremely stable even when I pull the trigger.
I wonder if this confirms my point.
Does any body have an opinion on this?
Indeed. I believe Malcolm Cooper did something similar when an airline lost his rifle or some kit.j-team wrote:I once saw one of the worlds top shooters have to borrow a pistol at a world champs because theirs had gone missing in transit. I asked his coach how he would get on with a grip that didn't fit 100% He said "not a problem for the good shooter".
I try to remind myself of that statement whenever I think that something might adversely effect my shooting!
Of course that always comes with the corollary of "within reason". If you have big hands, you won't physically be able to get your hands into a Small grip for a 50m Free Pistol. Malcolm Cooper could borrow a rifle off a similarly-proportioned teammate - not set up for him but built about right. Giving a 4-ft nothing person a front-heavy rifle proportioned for a 7 footer isn't going to end well!
I always amend the statement "A bad workman blames his tools." with the corollary that "But he needs the right tool in the first place."
Because a workman is well within his rights to do a bodge job if you give him a screwdriver in lieu of a chisel.