10m air rifle 3p in highschool and again with my daughter's 4H club a few years ago. I've decided to start shooting monthly postal matches while I'm assigned to Belgium because it allows me to shoot...especially in the winter.
I've purchased an Anschutz 2002 Superair. Now, the problems begin. When my daughter was shooting, I noticed the realm had progressed greatly from when I was in highschool shooting the FWB 300. You can now adjust cheekpiece height, length of pull, height and angle of buttplate, risers on sights, LOP on trigger, front sight apertures, rear sight apertures, filters, lenses, etc., etc., etc.
So...how do you determine what all of these should be at? In previous years, you put a rifle up to your shoulder to see if it 'felt' right. Did your eye line up with sights easily? Did it come on target quickly and easily? Today, you have to keep adjusting things until you have to find something that works, it seems. That's lots of adjust and shoot; adjust and shoot. I've run a search and didn't find anything that breaks down what all these adjustments and accessories can do for you and how to determine what fits what situation. For instance:
What does magnification on the front sight do for you? What indicates your LOP is too long or short? How far from the rear sight should your eye be, ideally?
I suspect I developed some bad habits in years gone by and want to examine them. The problem is that so much advice seems to be to find what is right for you. I suspect the real goal is to find a combination that puts your body in the most relaxed supported position; bring the sights and rifle into position to suit your upright, relaxed position and not conform your body to the rifle like I have before.
Any suggested reading on making adjustments to the rifle and sights?
All those adjustments!!!
Moderators: pilkguns, Marcus, m1963, David Levene, Spencer
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David Levene
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Re: All those adjustments!!!
It makes you illegal under ISSF rule 7.4.1.6.aDavid W. Johnson wrote: What does magnification on the front sight do for you?
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David W. Johnson
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Ah, yes. Thanks, David. I did see that one while reviewing the ISSF rules earlier today. No optics attached the rifle. I guess that piece is for something other than 10M rifles.
Other things I can figure out. Getting your eye further from the rear aperture reduces the apparent size of the aperture, and therefore the work the eye has to do to center the front aperture. That might be useful if prone where the rifle moves less. But it would be nice if someone has laid out the different accessories / adjustments and relative benefits / drawbacks, along with median settings for average shooters. Kind of a jumping off point.
Other things I can figure out. Getting your eye further from the rear aperture reduces the apparent size of the aperture, and therefore the work the eye has to do to center the front aperture. That might be useful if prone where the rifle moves less. But it would be nice if someone has laid out the different accessories / adjustments and relative benefits / drawbacks, along with median settings for average shooters. Kind of a jumping off point.
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David Levene
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NO.David W. Johnson wrote:Ah, yes. Thanks, David. I did see that one while reviewing the ISSF rules earlier today. No optics attached the rifle. I guess that piece is for something other than 10M rifles.
Under ISSF rules only for Running Target (section 10 of the rules) are you allowed to have optics on the rifle.
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David W. Johnson
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Ordinarily, I would heartily agree with you. But being assigned to Belgium gets in the way. (That's why I mentioned it up front along with the mention of postal matches) 1. The coaches don't speak English and my French isn't great. 2. There aren't any coaches. 3. I ordinarily work a 65 hour plus week. Coaches aren't available the hours that I am.Spencer wrote:ALL the questions you ask on this and other threads on this forum will be quickly, efficiently, and properly answered by a coach...
But, I take the hint. I'm annoying people with my questions. I'll take my leave.
Thanks to those who have responded. It's much appreciated.
David
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Martin Catley
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Coaches
Don't take it to heart everyone who needs help inevitably gets told to "see a Coach" regardless of where they live or the availability of Coaches.
Try to get a copy of one or two Books and there are some which will help you like Ways of the Rifle.
Try to get a copy of one or two Books and there are some which will help you like Ways of the Rifle.
seems unlikely in Europe; have you checked?David W. Johnson wrote:1. The coaches don't speak English and my French isn't great.
seems very unlikely in Europe; have you checked?David W. Johnson wrote:2. There aren't any coaches.
most 10m ranges in Europe are open evenings and weekends. surely you could work in an hour or so to get the rifle fitted to you somewhere: that hour will save you weeks.David W. Johnson wrote:3. I ordinarily work a 65 hour plus week. Coaches aren't available the hours that I am.
The reason we don't like to ty to coach online is that the shooter and rifle together form a "system", and whae any part of a system changes it affects other parts of the system. A coach will see these things, and often offer changes in more than one area.
If you work on your own, you must remember that changing one item will often cause another change to be needed.
That said: to answer a specific question on LOP, I start with a very rough adjustment from the inner crux of your bent elbow to the trigger finger being 90 degrees to the trigger shoe. Then after mounting the rifle you look for the firing hand to be able to drop from the grip and return to the grip without any stretching of the shoulder forward (too long LOP), and the wrist needs to be straight (not bent, too short LOP). Changes made from here are small, perhaps half a turn or less of the adjustment screw.
Once LOP is established you can mount the rifle with your eyes closed, relax and ope your eyes WITHOUT MOVING YOUR HEAD. You should be looking through both rear and front sigths, If not raise or lower the cheek piece to get head position.
Last loosen the buttplate adjustments (not length) and mount the rifle to see if you like the buttplate in another position other than your starting point. Here's one spot a coach helps, as he can often pre-set that for you due to his experience. If you are tall, or have a long neck, you may want to put the buttplate in the lowest position prior to starting the LOP adjustment.
As far as front inserts, start with a 4.2, then vary (small steps ) from that after you get some experience. Erring on the side of larger is better than smaller in my opinion. Don't worry about filters to get started.
Others will chime in with their opinions I'm sure. Just remember you are getting what you've paid for.
Good luck, and let us know how it goes.
If you work on your own, you must remember that changing one item will often cause another change to be needed.
That said: to answer a specific question on LOP, I start with a very rough adjustment from the inner crux of your bent elbow to the trigger finger being 90 degrees to the trigger shoe. Then after mounting the rifle you look for the firing hand to be able to drop from the grip and return to the grip without any stretching of the shoulder forward (too long LOP), and the wrist needs to be straight (not bent, too short LOP). Changes made from here are small, perhaps half a turn or less of the adjustment screw.
Once LOP is established you can mount the rifle with your eyes closed, relax and ope your eyes WITHOUT MOVING YOUR HEAD. You should be looking through both rear and front sigths, If not raise or lower the cheek piece to get head position.
Last loosen the buttplate adjustments (not length) and mount the rifle to see if you like the buttplate in another position other than your starting point. Here's one spot a coach helps, as he can often pre-set that for you due to his experience. If you are tall, or have a long neck, you may want to put the buttplate in the lowest position prior to starting the LOP adjustment.
As far as front inserts, start with a 4.2, then vary (small steps ) from that after you get some experience. Erring on the side of larger is better than smaller in my opinion. Don't worry about filters to get started.
Others will chime in with their opinions I'm sure. Just remember you are getting what you've paid for.
Good luck, and let us know how it goes.
The book Ways Of The Rifle was mentioned, Air Rifle is also another good one. Both written by MEC. There is some overlap but both books are useful. These are technical and tedious books but well done with lots of diagrams and illustrations.
It is difficult to answer a question as broad as yous in a forum like this.... it would take a book! ;)
I've been where you are, get the books, go to matches and see what everyone is doing, ask questions. On the coaching issue, from what I understand It is much easier to find a coach in Europe than in the US.
It is difficult to answer a question as broad as yous in a forum like this.... it would take a book! ;)
I've been where you are, get the books, go to matches and see what everyone is doing, ask questions. On the coaching issue, from what I understand It is much easier to find a coach in Europe than in the US.
You can fiddle with some of them until the Dr's from the insane asylum come to collect you LOL
As mentioned about take each one of them at a time and adjust them to what feels most natural. Anything you can adjust from a consistently built position to allow the rifle to come to the shoulder, cheek, forearm and pistol grip along with a natural view through the sights time after time. Then lock it down and shoot shoot and did I mention shoot? You might have to adjust a bit here and there as you settle in with a rifle but it won't be much if you setup right to get going.
Bo
As mentioned about take each one of them at a time and adjust them to what feels most natural. Anything you can adjust from a consistently built position to allow the rifle to come to the shoulder, cheek, forearm and pistol grip along with a natural view through the sights time after time. Then lock it down and shoot shoot and did I mention shoot? You might have to adjust a bit here and there as you settle in with a rifle but it won't be much if you setup right to get going.
Bo
Set up
David
You are a few hours drive from some of the best coaching in Europe, MEC in Dortmund. They are very helpfull, most speak good English, and I'm sure with a phone call you could arrange a time and day for a visit, they would both help you set up the rifle as well as help you with any other aspect of your shooting, and the shop is well worth a visit as well.
Phone 0049 231 426 0480
Good Luck
Robin
You are a few hours drive from some of the best coaching in Europe, MEC in Dortmund. They are very helpfull, most speak good English, and I'm sure with a phone call you could arrange a time and day for a visit, they would both help you set up the rifle as well as help you with any other aspect of your shooting, and the shop is well worth a visit as well.
Phone 0049 231 426 0480
Good Luck
Robin
David I don,t think you understand. People are not annoyed by your questions. It is just that it is impossible to tell someone how to adjust their rifle without being face to face.
The act of shooting an air rifle at a target 10 m away at a 10 ring about 1 mm in diameter is incredibly difficult. The movement of the muzzle allowed if hitting the 10 ring is measured in thousandths of a mm.
Because of that the differences between how you gun is set up vs. someone else's gun is a process that takes a lot of work. For example you have to take into account how your body parts compare to each other. Do you have a long neck, long torso, short legs and on and on. Each thing needs to be taken into account in building a position.
When you throw in the individual's body confirmation it becomes an almost impossible task. The act of becoming a good air rifle shooter takes years of practice and hard work. They say it takes 10,000 hours to become an expert at something. At 4 hours a day 300 days a year that is about 8 1/3 years. You will wear out many air rifles in that time.
The act of shooting an air rifle at a target 10 m away at a 10 ring about 1 mm in diameter is incredibly difficult. The movement of the muzzle allowed if hitting the 10 ring is measured in thousandths of a mm.
Because of that the differences between how you gun is set up vs. someone else's gun is a process that takes a lot of work. For example you have to take into account how your body parts compare to each other. Do you have a long neck, long torso, short legs and on and on. Each thing needs to be taken into account in building a position.
When you throw in the individual's body confirmation it becomes an almost impossible task. The act of becoming a good air rifle shooter takes years of practice and hard work. They say it takes 10,000 hours to become an expert at something. At 4 hours a day 300 days a year that is about 8 1/3 years. You will wear out many air rifles in that time.
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David W. Johnson
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Let me see if I can help clear up a couple of things.
I'm in Belgium. I'm in a particularly poor part of Belgium. Supreme Headquarters Allied Powers Europe was specifically moved here to put money in the local economy. They aren't the internationally savvy people you find up in Brussels. If they speak English, they aren't from here (typically). Some of the younger crowd speaks English they learned from the internet, movies, music, etc. They are even fluent. The generation that shoots does not speak English.
I can go three hours East to Luxembourg or Germany and find lots of shooting clubs. I can go two hours West and take the Chunnel into England and find lots of shooting clubs. There is a shooting club two blocks from my house that has been closed for years.
Yes, I've looked for a coach. I've looked for a club. I'm shooting postal matches.
Thanks for the input. I wasn't really asking anyone to answer those questions. That was just to illustrate the things I was looking for in reading material. That's why my bottom line was that I am looking for a book or some other source so I can research it myself and play with the adjustments. I'm surprised there are so few options out there. It looks like MEC is the only one that has made a good effort. I'll get their books and go from there.
Thanks again for the responses.
David
I'm in Belgium. I'm in a particularly poor part of Belgium. Supreme Headquarters Allied Powers Europe was specifically moved here to put money in the local economy. They aren't the internationally savvy people you find up in Brussels. If they speak English, they aren't from here (typically). Some of the younger crowd speaks English they learned from the internet, movies, music, etc. They are even fluent. The generation that shoots does not speak English.
I can go three hours East to Luxembourg or Germany and find lots of shooting clubs. I can go two hours West and take the Chunnel into England and find lots of shooting clubs. There is a shooting club two blocks from my house that has been closed for years.
Yes, I've looked for a coach. I've looked for a club. I'm shooting postal matches.
Thanks for the input. I wasn't really asking anyone to answer those questions. That was just to illustrate the things I was looking for in reading material. That's why my bottom line was that I am looking for a book or some other source so I can research it myself and play with the adjustments. I'm surprised there are so few options out there. It looks like MEC is the only one that has made a good effort. I'll get their books and go from there.
Thanks again for the responses.
David
I'm going to throw another vote in for getting some face-to-face time (even if it's only once for an hour or two), with an experienced coach. As several have pointed out here, that one day spent getting an initial setup, can save you weeks, even months, of frustration.
That said, it's not always possible. Get a copy of the MEC books; they are a wealth of knowledge. The other book I like for beginning position shooters is Rifle: Steps to Success by Launi Meili. It includes step-by-step instructions for setting up your initial position that I have always found very useful (more so than the information in the MEC books) for that initial setup. Good luck!
That said, it's not always possible. Get a copy of the MEC books; they are a wealth of knowledge. The other book I like for beginning position shooters is Rifle: Steps to Success by Launi Meili. It includes step-by-step instructions for setting up your initial position that I have always found very useful (more so than the information in the MEC books) for that initial setup. Good luck!
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ABoyd57946
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Re: All those adjustments!!!
Hello David,
I emphasize with your situation. Have been in a similar situation myself. I second mtncwru on the books. I shoot American prone and Ways of the Rifle was huge. I started off ranked as Marksman and now my scores are in the Expert class approaching Master level. This has taken five years. A couple hours with a coach got me rolling, then it's talking to better shooters, buying and working through the MEC and Melli books, and following their advice. This forum is also a good resource.
One additional point. While an investment consider buying a SCATT if you are self training. I did three years ago and when I tore apart and rebuilt my prone position it wS a Godsend. It gave me feedback I otherwise would not have had. It cut months if not years on my progression. Kind regards, Tony
I emphasize with your situation. Have been in a similar situation myself. I second mtncwru on the books. I shoot American prone and Ways of the Rifle was huge. I started off ranked as Marksman and now my scores are in the Expert class approaching Master level. This has taken five years. A couple hours with a coach got me rolling, then it's talking to better shooters, buying and working through the MEC and Melli books, and following their advice. This forum is also a good resource.
One additional point. While an investment consider buying a SCATT if you are self training. I did three years ago and when I tore apart and rebuilt my prone position it wS a Godsend. It gave me feedback I otherwise would not have had. It cut months if not years on my progression. Kind regards, Tony