OK, I am a fullbore Target Rifle (Prone) shooter (Custom Barnard P in 308 and 223) and looking to expand into 20m and 50m Prone smallbore shooting (no interest in 3 Position or Air Rifle).
Had my first tryout in smallbore the other night with what I beleive was a Anschutz 1903 in walnut stock (piss poor butt plate adjustment available). I'm not fond of wood stocks but this rifle was comfortable and shot well enough (first 10 shots were all 10's - went downhill a little after that) given my 'rough' setup.
So what appears to be on offer here in Australia are Walther, FWB's and Anschutz. The Anschutz appear to be a great deal more expenisve and there are a number of models of Anschutz kept in stock (none of the other brands seem to be kept in stock by anyone) - BUT - huge price differences between them.
I want to be competitive but I am not likely to be competing at Olympic standard so my question is..... what benefit would a 2013 in Precise Stock give me over a 1907 in Walnust stock given the imperfections inherent in the ammunition and the shooter?
Note that I intend to buy new rather than second hand.
Cheers
David
Help with Smallbore Rifle Selection
Moderators: pilkguns, Marcus, m1963, David Levene, Spencer
If you're not interested in shooting 3p then the basic 1907 might not be the right way to go - whilst the barreled action is a Match 54 system and really high quality, the stock is an older universal design, more designed to be an entry level stock for people getting into 3p shooting.
The more modern prone rifles all have flat fore-ends for a start which are much more comfortable in prone position, and when you get to a Anschutz precise/Walther Anatomic stock what you're really paying for is the ability to make fine adjustments to various things like the cheek piece, grip and the butt plate etc.
If you don't mind the wooden stock, have a look at the Anschutz 1914 (it's available with the 1907 action as a kit usually) It's a beautiful walnut stock that borrows a large number of features from the precise aluminium stocks, including the same butt plate and cheek piece as the 1918 stock. I have one with a heavier 1913 action and it's a beautiful rifle. What I would say though, is the 1914 is slightly smaller than the other stocks available from Anschutz which suits me because I'm short, but might not suit you!
The more modern prone rifles all have flat fore-ends for a start which are much more comfortable in prone position, and when you get to a Anschutz precise/Walther Anatomic stock what you're really paying for is the ability to make fine adjustments to various things like the cheek piece, grip and the butt plate etc.
If you don't mind the wooden stock, have a look at the Anschutz 1914 (it's available with the 1907 action as a kit usually) It's a beautiful walnut stock that borrows a large number of features from the precise aluminium stocks, including the same butt plate and cheek piece as the 1918 stock. I have one with a heavier 1913 action and it's a beautiful rifle. What I would say though, is the 1914 is slightly smaller than the other stocks available from Anschutz which suits me because I'm short, but might not suit you!
What are the advantages of a 2013 Precise vs a 1907? Laying aside the difference in the receivers for a mo, there is a world of difference between the stocks. The 1907, as noted above, is a universal design. New models have a proper adjustable cheekpiece, whereas older models had to be packed with wedges. For a novice shooter a 1907 has all the neccesary adjustment, but not so much that you get lost.
The Precise stock has a much greater range of adjustment in the cheekpiece, buttplate, and pistol grip. These can be used to create a rifle that fits better for more repeatable aim and recoil. However it will take longer to get the adjustment just right, and the sheer range of adjustment available makes it possible to get the set up wrong. The Precise stock also places the barrel much lower in the hand than the 1907, supposedly better for balance and recoil.
In terms of actions the 2013 clamps the barrel in a split receiver, where the 1907 has the barrel pressed and pinned into place. On a more practical level the 2013 has four bedding bolts, and the 1907 (and heavy barrel 1913) has two. Bolt, trigger, and sights are the same.
Have you thought of just buying a barrel/action and having it fitted into a copy of your TR stock?
Also I would not discount a used rifle. Smallbore barrels wear much more slowly than fullbore. As a rule barrel life is reckoned at about 100,000, so a little used older rifle can be just fine. Anschutz barrels/actions have not changed appreciably in almost 35 years; the only real difference between a 1980 vintage model 1813 and a 2014 vintage 1913 is the foresight mount.
The Precise stock has a much greater range of adjustment in the cheekpiece, buttplate, and pistol grip. These can be used to create a rifle that fits better for more repeatable aim and recoil. However it will take longer to get the adjustment just right, and the sheer range of adjustment available makes it possible to get the set up wrong. The Precise stock also places the barrel much lower in the hand than the 1907, supposedly better for balance and recoil.
In terms of actions the 2013 clamps the barrel in a split receiver, where the 1907 has the barrel pressed and pinned into place. On a more practical level the 2013 has four bedding bolts, and the 1907 (and heavy barrel 1913) has two. Bolt, trigger, and sights are the same.
Have you thought of just buying a barrel/action and having it fitted into a copy of your TR stock?
Also I would not discount a used rifle. Smallbore barrels wear much more slowly than fullbore. As a rule barrel life is reckoned at about 100,000, so a little used older rifle can be just fine. Anschutz barrels/actions have not changed appreciably in almost 35 years; the only real difference between a 1980 vintage model 1813 and a 2014 vintage 1913 is the foresight mount.
Hmmm, interesting. The Barnard TR rifle is a simple V Block system, I could certainly get a new stock with action mounting block machined to whatever the Barreled action was. But I wouldn't save a lot of money. I could just get an adjustable stock and modify/adjust it to my TR rifle specs (I'm going to try that with what turned out to be the clubs 1907 to see how that works for me)
At present I am leaning toward either a 1913 in Precise or 1913 Supermatch. Both of these stocks look like they can be adjusted to the same setup/dimention as my TR rifle. For Prone only shooting, does anyone want to talk me into something else?
One final thing - bedding. In TR there is a lot said about using a metal stock/bedding system over wood due to the nature of wood (ie swells, warps, consistancy of bedding) Can I assume the same issues apply to smalbore? What bedding systems do the Anschutz with wood stocks use?
Cheers
At present I am leaning toward either a 1913 in Precise or 1913 Supermatch. Both of these stocks look like they can be adjusted to the same setup/dimention as my TR rifle. For Prone only shooting, does anyone want to talk me into something else?
One final thing - bedding. In TR there is a lot said about using a metal stock/bedding system over wood due to the nature of wood (ie swells, warps, consistancy of bedding) Can I assume the same issues apply to smalbore? What bedding systems do the Anschutz with wood stocks use?
Cheers
Well, to answer the question-
"what benefit would a 2013 in Precise Stock give me over a 1907 in Walnust stock..." (sic)
Numerous
I'm a 1907 owner. I primarily shoot prone matches but I shoot a small amount of 3P as well. I shoot 50 yd, 50 M, 100 yd, Mini-Palma, and an occasional club match at 200 yds. Iron sights only. I've shot a few perfect stages, but never a perfect match. I'm also 66, so I doubt a perfect match is in my future, but I give it my best. So that's my background.
The 1907 is not designed as a prone rifle, it has a belly to it, It is a "does everything pretty well rifle" at a reasonable price. The 1907 has a fair amount of adjustability, but is notably lacking in grip adjustment and somewhat in l-o-p, due to the inherent design.
The 2013, aside from being a 3P rifle, is much better suited to an exclusively prone rifle and the stock itself is "infinitely adjustable". (Infinity covers a lot of ground, but the 2013 Precise comes fairly close :-) )
I can see how a new shooter could be overwhelmed by the level of 2013 adjustability without experienced guidance. The 1907 is much more understandable from a set-up point of view. However as an experienced shooter, I suspect the 2013 adjustments would pose little problem for you.
Based on what is in your initial post I would give preference to the 1913, 2013 series and would not hesitate to consider a used rifle.
The Idea of getting a barreled action fitted to a stock of the type you use in your other shooting makes sense as well. In the US, used wood Anschutz prone stocks are fairly easy to find at a very reasonable cost. Of course they're still wood, and a quality stock of alternate materials doesn't really come cheap, especially once you start hanging parts off it. Again, I'm back to the 1913/2013.
Although I think there is merit in the 1907 action in a 1914 stock, at that price point (US $), might as well go with the Alu stock. Just an opinion.
Nothing wrong with the other brands you mentioned, but parts/service for the Ans seem readily available, the others not as much. The Anschutz may not be the "bes"t smallbore rifle out there, but there's a lot to be said for ease of maintenance, durability, and availability of parts/service.
Aside from the action and stock differences previously noted in the other posts, the other major difference of the 2013 Precise is about $2,000 US.
Regards,
Terry
"what benefit would a 2013 in Precise Stock give me over a 1907 in Walnust stock..." (sic)
Numerous
I'm a 1907 owner. I primarily shoot prone matches but I shoot a small amount of 3P as well. I shoot 50 yd, 50 M, 100 yd, Mini-Palma, and an occasional club match at 200 yds. Iron sights only. I've shot a few perfect stages, but never a perfect match. I'm also 66, so I doubt a perfect match is in my future, but I give it my best. So that's my background.
The 1907 is not designed as a prone rifle, it has a belly to it, It is a "does everything pretty well rifle" at a reasonable price. The 1907 has a fair amount of adjustability, but is notably lacking in grip adjustment and somewhat in l-o-p, due to the inherent design.
The 2013, aside from being a 3P rifle, is much better suited to an exclusively prone rifle and the stock itself is "infinitely adjustable". (Infinity covers a lot of ground, but the 2013 Precise comes fairly close :-) )
I can see how a new shooter could be overwhelmed by the level of 2013 adjustability without experienced guidance. The 1907 is much more understandable from a set-up point of view. However as an experienced shooter, I suspect the 2013 adjustments would pose little problem for you.
Based on what is in your initial post I would give preference to the 1913, 2013 series and would not hesitate to consider a used rifle.
The Idea of getting a barreled action fitted to a stock of the type you use in your other shooting makes sense as well. In the US, used wood Anschutz prone stocks are fairly easy to find at a very reasonable cost. Of course they're still wood, and a quality stock of alternate materials doesn't really come cheap, especially once you start hanging parts off it. Again, I'm back to the 1913/2013.
Although I think there is merit in the 1907 action in a 1914 stock, at that price point (US $), might as well go with the Alu stock. Just an opinion.
Nothing wrong with the other brands you mentioned, but parts/service for the Ans seem readily available, the others not as much. The Anschutz may not be the "bes"t smallbore rifle out there, but there's a lot to be said for ease of maintenance, durability, and availability of parts/service.
Aside from the action and stock differences previously noted in the other posts, the other major difference of the 2013 Precise is about $2,000 US.
Regards,
Terry
The 1918 and 1913 are both very good rifles; the barrel, action, and trigger are proven and reliable, and the stocks can be adjusted to fit almost anyone. You can't go far wrong with either. Yes there are other rifles: Either the Walther KK300 or the Feinwerkbau 2700, which are Anschutz's main competitors, would be a fine choice. But if you can't easily get one, I would not lose any sleep in buying an Anschutz.higginsdj wrote:At present I am leaning toward either a 1913 in Precise or 1913 Supermatch. Both of these stocks look like they can be adjusted to the same setup/dimention as my TR rifle. For Prone only shooting, does anyone want to talk me into something else?
One final thing - bedding. In TR there is a lot said about using a metal stock/bedding system over wood due to the nature of wood (ie swells, warps, consistancy of bedding) Can I assume the same issues apply to smalbore? What bedding systems do the Anschutz with wood stocks use?
Cheers
As for bedding, Anschutz factory wood stocks have none; the action sits directly on the wood. There is a metal recoil lug embedded in the wood that enages with a slot in the action to locate it, but that's it. Because smallbore rifles produce so much less recoil, there's no need to bed the action to strengthen and protect the stock, although some shooters will have the action epoxy/pillar bedded to improve the fit/make it less sesnitive to warping. But not everyone goes down this route, and many rifles will shoot good scores with no change to the factory bedding. The older 2213 metal stocks used a plastic gasket between the action and stock, I presume that the new Precise stock has a similar arrangement.
Last edited by Tim S on Fri Jun 27, 2014 4:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
David you asked about bedding the rifle. For smallbore it can make much less difference that it does with a TR rifle. The system that Anschutz uses, at least with round actions (19 series in current production) in wooden stocks works very well if you store the rifle with the torque backed off and use a torque wrench to reset it each time you shoot. Adjusting torque settings was always seen as a good way to tune the gun to ammunition batch variations before barrel tuners became popular. My 1984 vintage Anschutz 1813 in the Walnut free rifle stock of the period with the right ammo is perfectly capable of still holding 10.5 on the ISSF 50m target. The modern modular adjustable stocks are all built on an aluminium chassis (with the exception of the Walther Anatomic which is built on a laminated wood frame) so of course completely remove the need for bedding the rifle as you only have metal to metal interfaces.
From a personal perspective I have shot Anschutz smallbore target rifles since I started shooting with the Air Cadets in 1978 at the age of 13. Except for a period of about a year when I first had my own rifle (a Valmet Finnish Lion in a standard rifle stock). If I were to get a new rifle now though I think it would be the Walther KK300 in the Alutec stock (not the Anatomic). My daughter now shoots an LG400 air rifle (as well as my 1813) and I really think the Walther trigger has a real edge over the Anschutz 5018 unit. Otherwise I don't think there is much to separate Walther or Anschutz. Of course avilablity of rifles also plays a part, it's hard to buy a rifle if no one holds them in stock in your country. There are also several other manufacturers of modular stocks, offering more choice MEC springing to mind first, I quite like the look of the Kepler stock a friend has on his 1813 action. If seeing new rifles in a retailer is hard I would suggest trying to get to some competetions if you can. There are likely going to be the best range of rifles that you can at least see and ask owners about, smallbore shooters are usually as friendly as their fullbore TR brethern, and just as willing to talk about their sport. At least after they have finished shooting, if not before.
There is a lot more in common between smallbore and fullbore TR than some of the shooters on either side would sometimes like to admit, although I have only ever played with TR, my old Fulton converted Mauser 98 with it's Lithgow Black Mountain barrel in 7.62×51mm (on the proof marks rather than .308 Win) is hardly competetive, but with the new RWS ammo the GB NRA are using will still hold about 1 moa out to 1000 yards.
Alan
From a personal perspective I have shot Anschutz smallbore target rifles since I started shooting with the Air Cadets in 1978 at the age of 13. Except for a period of about a year when I first had my own rifle (a Valmet Finnish Lion in a standard rifle stock). If I were to get a new rifle now though I think it would be the Walther KK300 in the Alutec stock (not the Anatomic). My daughter now shoots an LG400 air rifle (as well as my 1813) and I really think the Walther trigger has a real edge over the Anschutz 5018 unit. Otherwise I don't think there is much to separate Walther or Anschutz. Of course avilablity of rifles also plays a part, it's hard to buy a rifle if no one holds them in stock in your country. There are also several other manufacturers of modular stocks, offering more choice MEC springing to mind first, I quite like the look of the Kepler stock a friend has on his 1813 action. If seeing new rifles in a retailer is hard I would suggest trying to get to some competetions if you can. There are likely going to be the best range of rifles that you can at least see and ask owners about, smallbore shooters are usually as friendly as their fullbore TR brethern, and just as willing to talk about their sport. At least after they have finished shooting, if not before.
There is a lot more in common between smallbore and fullbore TR than some of the shooters on either side would sometimes like to admit, although I have only ever played with TR, my old Fulton converted Mauser 98 with it's Lithgow Black Mountain barrel in 7.62×51mm (on the proof marks rather than .308 Win) is hardly competetive, but with the new RWS ammo the GB NRA are using will still hold about 1 moa out to 1000 yards.
Alan