Help to identify this ANSCHUTZ
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Dwayne JRA
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- Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 9:24 am
- Location: JAMAICA
Help to identify this ANSCHUTZ
I am seeking some help to identify this rifle. I know from reading that it was made in 1975 based on the barrel. What I dont know is exactly what model this is. Dont think 1913 was around in 75 lol.
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Dwayne JRA
- Posts: 29
- Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 9:24 am
- Location: JAMAICA
It's a 1413 Supermatch. It looks to be all original except for the buttplate, and handstop. Both are Anschutz articles, but the handstop is newer, no older than the 1980s, and the buttplate is of late '60s vintage. I'd expect a 1975 1413 to have a detachable hook.
The rearsight is the more desirable steel bodied 6702 International. The trigger is a single stage; depending on the weight setting 1408 D-U1 or 1411-U2.
It's not very different from the current 1913. The stock has slightly less adjustment, and the trigger is less sophisticated, but barrel specs haven't really changed. Stocks and triggers can be updated.
The rearsight is the more desirable steel bodied 6702 International. The trigger is a single stage; depending on the weight setting 1408 D-U1 or 1411-U2.
It's not very different from the current 1913. The stock has slightly less adjustment, and the trigger is less sophisticated, but barrel specs haven't really changed. Stocks and triggers can be updated.
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Dwayne JRA
- Posts: 29
- Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 9:24 am
- Location: JAMAICA
The serial number is right for the 1975 year. It appears the barrel has the 75 proof but can't be sure.
The single stage trigger would have been right for a 1411 which says the barreled action may have started life in a 1411 stock and it was later dropped into a 1413 stock.
The cheekpiece adjust is has the large knob on the side, appropriate for 1975 as well.
You might find the barrel to be excellent, the mid 1970s was a very good era for factory Anschutz barrels.
The odd thing about the buttplate is not only had they gone to the detachable hook by 1975 but the locking screw for length of pull I am pretty sure was on the bottom by then but there is clearly a notch in the back of the cheekpiece to allow for clearance for the nut and a screwdriver. (Yeah the early ones were slotted for a broad straight blade screwdriver.) Later models that screw was on the bottom. No big deal, the adjustment mechanism is still quite functional.
As for the value, this a crapshoot as sometimes it depends on stumbling across the right buyer at the right time. The old wing bolt, is often perceived as being not as good and too slow compared to the newer 18xx bolt. While it is slower most shooters would never be able to tell the difference. Then there are others who find the 14xx desirable as the bolt handle seems to operate a little more smoothly and ignition is considered to be more consistent. I digress.
If I was going to sell it on the US market, with sights, I might start testing the water around $1600. You can always come down in price.
If you really want a 1913 stock, this barreled action will drop right in. Want the newer trigger? A 5071/1 trigger will screw right on.
Cheers,
'Dude
The single stage trigger would have been right for a 1411 which says the barreled action may have started life in a 1411 stock and it was later dropped into a 1413 stock.
The cheekpiece adjust is has the large knob on the side, appropriate for 1975 as well.
You might find the barrel to be excellent, the mid 1970s was a very good era for factory Anschutz barrels.
The odd thing about the buttplate is not only had they gone to the detachable hook by 1975 but the locking screw for length of pull I am pretty sure was on the bottom by then but there is clearly a notch in the back of the cheekpiece to allow for clearance for the nut and a screwdriver. (Yeah the early ones were slotted for a broad straight blade screwdriver.) Later models that screw was on the bottom. No big deal, the adjustment mechanism is still quite functional.
As for the value, this a crapshoot as sometimes it depends on stumbling across the right buyer at the right time. The old wing bolt, is often perceived as being not as good and too slow compared to the newer 18xx bolt. While it is slower most shooters would never be able to tell the difference. Then there are others who find the 14xx desirable as the bolt handle seems to operate a little more smoothly and ignition is considered to be more consistent. I digress.
If I was going to sell it on the US market, with sights, I might start testing the water around $1600. You can always come down in price.
If you really want a 1913 stock, this barreled action will drop right in. Want the newer trigger? A 5071/1 trigger will screw right on.
Cheers,
'Dude
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Dwayne JRA
- Posts: 29
- Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 9:24 am
- Location: JAMAICA
So it is safe to say that this rifle could shoot as good as any 1913 since the basic components ie barrel and action are the exact same in the year 2014 as it was in 75? All I really like is the trigger and the hook is really the notable changes. Does lock time really affect accuracy or consistency in any way?
'Dude,
an LOP locking screw at the top of the butt is right for a 1975 rifle. I don't think it was moved to the bottom until the later 1970s. The earliest bottom locking stocks I recall seeing were 1613 rifles. As you say, there's no difference in the adjustment, except where you put the allen key.
A 5071 trigger will not screw straight onto a 1975 1413. The sear cross-pin will foul on the action, unless the pin is trimmed or a relief slot is cut into the receiver.
an LOP locking screw at the top of the butt is right for a 1975 rifle. I don't think it was moved to the bottom until the later 1970s. The earliest bottom locking stocks I recall seeing were 1613 rifles. As you say, there's no difference in the adjustment, except where you put the allen key.
A 5071 trigger will not screw straight onto a 1975 1413. The sear cross-pin will foul on the action, unless the pin is trimmed or a relief slot is cut into the receiver.
Dwayne,Dwayne JRA wrote:So it is safe to say that this rifle could shoot as good as any 1913 since the basic components ie barrel and action are the exact same in the year 2014 as it was in 75? All I really like is the trigger and the hook is really the notable changes. Does lock time really affect accuracy or consistency in any way?
It could shoot as well as a 1913. Whether it actually does depends on the condition of the barrel, and also on luck. Barrels don't shoot accurately for ever; shooting eventually causes accuracy to deteriorate. A rifle that is almost 40 years old could have clocked up a round count high enough to reduce accuracy with only modest annual usage. Or it could have been fired once, and not used again. The less use it has seen, the better. Then there is luck; Anschutz make their barrels to certain tolerances, some are better than others regardless of age. I'd take a really good older barrel (especially if the "mileage" is low) over a new but so-so barrel. As 'Dude said Anschutz were making good barrels at this period.
As for the lock time, Anschutz clearly think it was worthwhile to decrease it, but you may not notice any effect in practise. The 1413 isn't slow, just not so fast as the 1913. I think any effect would be more noticeable standing than prone.
Ultimately it comes down to how well the barrel shoots. Does it meet your criteria for accuracy? If it doesn't then a new rifle, or a more accurate used one, would be better. Depending on local prices, buying the 1413, and replacing the barrel, may be more economical than a new 1913.
@Tim
@Dwayne
From the time the firing pin starts forward to the time the bullet exits the muzzle, any motion of the rifle will affect placement of the shot. Anything you can do to reduce the time from release to exit will reduce the chance that rifle motion will have an affect on shot placement. While ignition time and time in the barrel are mostly a function of the ammo and barrel length, the time it takes for the firing pin to fall and strike the primer is a function of the mechanics of the firing mechanism. This is what Anschutz went after when they moved away from the wing safety bolt. As Tim points out, for positions that are inherently less stable, (Standing) this is more of an issue than more stable (Prone) where your wobble may not even leave the 10 ring. For most shooters, it would never make any difference.
There appears to be some moderate wear on the bluing of the bolt handle. While no safe queen with less than a case through it the fact that the handle is not almost silver is sign the use is probably not ridiculously high. Does the present owner have any idea how many rounds are through it? Properly cared for, most factory Anschutz barrels from the 70s would go for 80k to 100k rounds before they started to lose accuracy. Then again, one screwup with a cleaning rod can wreck a barrel of any age.
Cheers,
'Dude
Yes, Tim is correct on this, it does take a few moments with a small grinder to trim the ends off the pin that holds the catch lever. Did it a time or two many years ago. Grinding the pins can be a do it yourself operation. (remove the pin for grinding or take care to keep grinding grit out of the trigger mechanism) If you go for slotting the bottom of the receiver it is best to have a gunsmith or someone with a mill do it. It is not a precision operation.A 5071 trigger will not screw straight onto a 1975 1413. The sear cross-pin will foul on the action, unless the pin is trimmed or a relief slot is cut into the receiver.
@Dwayne
From the time the firing pin starts forward to the time the bullet exits the muzzle, any motion of the rifle will affect placement of the shot. Anything you can do to reduce the time from release to exit will reduce the chance that rifle motion will have an affect on shot placement. While ignition time and time in the barrel are mostly a function of the ammo and barrel length, the time it takes for the firing pin to fall and strike the primer is a function of the mechanics of the firing mechanism. This is what Anschutz went after when they moved away from the wing safety bolt. As Tim points out, for positions that are inherently less stable, (Standing) this is more of an issue than more stable (Prone) where your wobble may not even leave the 10 ring. For most shooters, it would never make any difference.
There appears to be some moderate wear on the bluing of the bolt handle. While no safe queen with less than a case through it the fact that the handle is not almost silver is sign the use is probably not ridiculously high. Does the present owner have any idea how many rounds are through it? Properly cared for, most factory Anschutz barrels from the 70s would go for 80k to 100k rounds before they started to lose accuracy. Then again, one screwup with a cleaning rod can wreck a barrel of any age.
Cheers,
'Dude
The sticker by the bolt appears to be from the 2002 Commonwealth Games. Competition stickers usually suggest the rifle is accurate, but a national-level competitor will shoot a lot.
@Dude makes a good point about the bolt handle. Worn bluing is a sign the bolt has been opened and closed many times; some of those times will be from dry firing, but not all.
@Dude makes a good point about the bolt handle. Worn bluing is a sign the bolt has been opened and closed many times; some of those times will be from dry firing, but not all.
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Dwayne JRA
- Posts: 29
- Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 9:24 am
- Location: JAMAICA
This is really very good info. Didn't know about most of these things. Do you think it is possible to buy a new 1913 and the barrel from factory is not perfect or is not good enough to be able to shoot 600 (assume rifle in gun vice lol)? Even tho from readings I see where the rifle would come with a 10 shot test card would they or out a rifle which had a little less than ideal card result. Or are they all perfect
Even if you got hold of the test group for this rifle, it means very little at this time and distance, condition of the barrel has changed and its almost 40yrs old.
Some older rifle shoot well, some don't, it all depends on a variety of factors, only way to find out is to shoot it with good quality ammo.
Some older rifle shoot well, some don't, it all depends on a variety of factors, only way to find out is to shoot it with good quality ammo.
Dwayne,
Yes, every Anschutz target rifle (at least the Match 54 and 20xx series) ships from the factory with a test card from the barrelled action clamped in a vise. 10 shots at 50 meters.
Now there is some standard, the barrel has to shoot smaller than some group size in order to be released.
Now as I understand it, Anschutz will try a barrel with a few different lots of ammo to prove it can shoot within the standard. If you get a similar lot then good for you, if you have a picky barrel and cannot find a similar lot then too bad.
Now, in general in the mid-1970s you almost had to work to find a factory barrel that was not at least decent, many were quite good. Sometime around 1990 (early 19xx series) it seems like Anschutz relaxed the standards some as I started seeing a number of test groups that were just so so, would they shoot a 600? Yes, but there was much less room for error on the part of the shooter. None are ever perfect, some are better than others.
For the 1975 barrel on the rifle you are asking about, again mid 70s, a good era but... how many rounds are though the barrel? What kind of ammo? How often was it cleaned? Was it cleaned from the breech or the muzzle? Did the person use a coated cleaning rod or just some old piece of steel? If the gun was stored was the barrel protected? The list of questions gets long and involved and each answer might lead to two more questions.
The only way to have an idea if this barrel is decent is to set it up and shoot it, preferably with a telescopic sight and try it with a few different lots of target grade ammo.
Now, all things being equal, if I had the choice of an older Anschutz barrel and some assurance it did not have like a zillion rounds through it or a new 19xx barrel... I would take the old one. That it just me. Perhaps Tim S will weigh in on this as well.
Tim?
Cheers,
'Dude
Yes, every Anschutz target rifle (at least the Match 54 and 20xx series) ships from the factory with a test card from the barrelled action clamped in a vise. 10 shots at 50 meters.
Now there is some standard, the barrel has to shoot smaller than some group size in order to be released.
Now as I understand it, Anschutz will try a barrel with a few different lots of ammo to prove it can shoot within the standard. If you get a similar lot then good for you, if you have a picky barrel and cannot find a similar lot then too bad.
Now, in general in the mid-1970s you almost had to work to find a factory barrel that was not at least decent, many were quite good. Sometime around 1990 (early 19xx series) it seems like Anschutz relaxed the standards some as I started seeing a number of test groups that were just so so, would they shoot a 600? Yes, but there was much less room for error on the part of the shooter. None are ever perfect, some are better than others.
For the 1975 barrel on the rifle you are asking about, again mid 70s, a good era but... how many rounds are though the barrel? What kind of ammo? How often was it cleaned? Was it cleaned from the breech or the muzzle? Did the person use a coated cleaning rod or just some old piece of steel? If the gun was stored was the barrel protected? The list of questions gets long and involved and each answer might lead to two more questions.
The only way to have an idea if this barrel is decent is to set it up and shoot it, preferably with a telescopic sight and try it with a few different lots of target grade ammo.
Now, all things being equal, if I had the choice of an older Anschutz barrel and some assurance it did not have like a zillion rounds through it or a new 19xx barrel... I would take the old one. That it just me. Perhaps Tim S will weigh in on this as well.
Tim?
Cheers,
'Dude
Yes, I think it is possible to buy a new rifle that is not perfect. As 'Dude said, Anschutz test their rifles before they sell them to check they meet a minimum standard (they don't say what this is). Some barrels will easily exceed the minimum, others will just scrape past. This is a normal result of manufacturing. Rumour has it that if a barrel gives so-so results, staff will test again with different ammunition, until it shoots to spec; the test group then goes into the manual, and the rifle goes off for sale.Dwayne JRA wrote: Do you think it is possible to buy a new 1913 and the barrel from factory is not perfect or is not good enough to be able to shoot 600 (assume rifle in gun vice lol)?
In Britain many shooters try to remove some of the lottery in getting a good barrel, by choosing a factory selected barrel. These are barrels that show consistently good results with a range of ammunition; after the initial test, they are tested further, and sold at a small premium if considered good enough. A non-selected barrel may shoot very accurately, but selected barrels are reckoned to be less picky over ammunition.
Anschutz test their barrels out of the stock, clamped in a lead-lined vice.
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Dwayne JRA
- Posts: 29
- Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 9:24 am
- Location: JAMAICA
I am looking to buy the 1913 from creedmore since champion shooters and choice are both out of stock. How could I go about getting a factory selected barrel? Or are there good barrels made by others for a 54 action that would be better to buy? Right now I shooting 550s with an old Remington imr and some all but corroded Eley club and tenex that's over 10 years old. So want this fresh start to be good. Trying to at least make 580 and that borrow rifle limits the changes I can make(share with the owner )
Dwayne,
I am not sure how it is done now, but to get a factory select barrel you would work with your dealer who would talk with the factory. Then the barreled action would be mated with the stock of your choice put in a box and shipped with your name on it to your dealer. Expect to wait about 3 months.
There are a number of aftermarket barrels that a good gunsmith can mate to a 54 action that would be as good or better than a factory select barrel.
Rather than Creedmore, which is more of a high power / service rifle oriented shop have you tried folks like Neal Stepp at International Shooter Service or MT Guns, both of whom are more smallbore shooting oriented shops.
Going back to the barrel discussion, consider that you have to have a decent barrel but unless you match a lot # of Tenex to that barrel you are not really getting the full value of the ammunition. If you are shooting 550 with a Remington IMR (Assuming this is the old 40X in the semi finished stock) then you would find either the old 1413 that started this thread or the brand new 1913 to be a step up. However, a new rifle will not automatically add 30 points to your score.
My immediate recommendation would be to work out a fair price for the 1413 you are looking at. Consider a little more to update the butt plate and with the money you save compared to a new 1913 buy a few cases of Eley Club, and start training.
Cheers,
'Dude
I am not sure how it is done now, but to get a factory select barrel you would work with your dealer who would talk with the factory. Then the barreled action would be mated with the stock of your choice put in a box and shipped with your name on it to your dealer. Expect to wait about 3 months.
There are a number of aftermarket barrels that a good gunsmith can mate to a 54 action that would be as good or better than a factory select barrel.
Rather than Creedmore, which is more of a high power / service rifle oriented shop have you tried folks like Neal Stepp at International Shooter Service or MT Guns, both of whom are more smallbore shooting oriented shops.
Going back to the barrel discussion, consider that you have to have a decent barrel but unless you match a lot # of Tenex to that barrel you are not really getting the full value of the ammunition. If you are shooting 550 with a Remington IMR (Assuming this is the old 40X in the semi finished stock) then you would find either the old 1413 that started this thread or the brand new 1913 to be a step up. However, a new rifle will not automatically add 30 points to your score.
My immediate recommendation would be to work out a fair price for the 1413 you are looking at. Consider a little more to update the butt plate and with the money you save compared to a new 1913 buy a few cases of Eley Club, and start training.
Cheers,
'Dude
I'm with Dude on this, if the rifle in the OP is avilable to you at a good price, and you (or someone who you know can shoot well) can test the rifle first, preferably with an ammo batch the current owner is using then it should be a reasonable buy for your current level.
Then buy quality mid grade target ammo from Eley/RWS/Lapua and get practicing.
Once you get up around a consistent 580, in pretty much any conditions then would be the time to think about a new rifle or even just a new aluminium stock to take you to the next step. Of course by then you will have much more idea what you actually need, so you are not spending money on stuff you don't actually need. At least with buying a second hand Anschutz match rifle, as long as you don't over pay for it is that it will not loose you money while you own it. This is especially true if your location allows you easy access to the US market, where all Anschutz rifles seem to hold decent prices.
Alan
Then buy quality mid grade target ammo from Eley/RWS/Lapua and get practicing.
Once you get up around a consistent 580, in pretty much any conditions then would be the time to think about a new rifle or even just a new aluminium stock to take you to the next step. Of course by then you will have much more idea what you actually need, so you are not spending money on stuff you don't actually need. At least with buying a second hand Anschutz match rifle, as long as you don't over pay for it is that it will not loose you money while you own it. This is especially true if your location allows you easy access to the US market, where all Anschutz rifles seem to hold decent prices.
Alan
Before the 2012 Olympics, I know of a World Champion and Olympic medal holder that was given 20 barrels to try and then went to the eley test facility to find the correct combination because his wasn't shooting as well as he liked. The barrel he used to win his medal at a previous olympics was made by an aftermarket company. The coach that was with him at the time of the testing basically told me there is no specific barrel maker that is better than the other and even with tested ammo, not all new 1913's will shoot a 600. I was told that the accuracy of todays barrel as well as why the barrels in the 70's seemed to be some of the best is due to the quality of steel. I guess to get one of these "great" barrels from the company, it would be done through your National Governing Body who is going to put it in the hands of a medal contender.
On another note, I learned something new about 1413's. Didn't know any of them had adjustable cheekpieces except for the so called 1613's. Someone mentioned that they thought the gun was a 1411 due to a single stage trigger. Does this mean that some of the 14 series rifles had a 2 stage trigger other than the so called 1613's?
As for the value of the rifle, the thing that hurts the value is the trigger. A 2 stage trigger is what everyone want's today and those are over $300 and usually around $200 if you can find a used one.
The gun has everything else going for it.
In my experience, an older 1413 goes for around $1000. Adj cheek adds 2-$300 and the trigger another $200. This is based on what I have seen sell, what I have bought, and what I have and would sell.
1813's go in the $1800 range. All this depends on condition and how many are on the market and who needs one on that day and doesn't want to spend over 3K
A 40 year old gun for $1500 can be as good or better than a new $3000 gun. No way to tell until trying to match ammo. Unfortunately I know of average shooters who HAD to have new barrels installed on their new rifles because it woud not shoot to their ability. I would think this would be rare though.
On another note, I learned something new about 1413's. Didn't know any of them had adjustable cheekpieces except for the so called 1613's. Someone mentioned that they thought the gun was a 1411 due to a single stage trigger. Does this mean that some of the 14 series rifles had a 2 stage trigger other than the so called 1613's?
As for the value of the rifle, the thing that hurts the value is the trigger. A 2 stage trigger is what everyone want's today and those are over $300 and usually around $200 if you can find a used one.
The gun has everything else going for it.
In my experience, an older 1413 goes for around $1000. Adj cheek adds 2-$300 and the trigger another $200. This is based on what I have seen sell, what I have bought, and what I have and would sell.
1813's go in the $1800 range. All this depends on condition and how many are on the market and who needs one on that day and doesn't want to spend over 3K
A 40 year old gun for $1500 can be as good or better than a new $3000 gun. No way to tell until trying to match ammo. Unfortunately I know of average shooters who HAD to have new barrels installed on their new rifles because it woud not shoot to their ability. I would think this would be rare though.