Seeing the original ''question'' is over 2 years old, really doesnt matter much what we say.as long as its helpful to somebody LOLRover wrote:Just answer the guys question!
Alternative to 1911 for Accurate .45
Moderators: pilkguns, m1963, Isabel1130
Last edited by GunRunner on Thu Aug 25, 2011 11:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: This thread strayed off the topic
Nobody talks about those guns for good reason they cant do whats needed if shooting competitive scores is the objective.Angry Inch wrote:I was looking for a discussion of an accurate .45 ACP that was not a 1911. It seems the 1911 crowd can not seem to talk about anything else. What about the SigP220 or the CZ 97?SK
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Levergun59
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About the only stock gun I can think of is the 745 Smith @ Wesson. I haven't tried the Pardini's, but if it is anything like their 22's, look out. Seriously, try and find a gunsmith who specializes in Smiths for accurizing. The other problem with newer model guns is their modular, polymer manufacturing methods. Try tightening a slide on one of these guns. Just my thoughts.
Chris
Chris
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Brian James
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Re: This thread strayed off the topic
There are a few people are talking about the CZ97, and I beleive it has potenial. I would suggest people check out the CZ forum
http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=26282.0
Whats interesting is someone has taken a CZ97 and milled the slide so it can take a 1911 barrel bushing and is getting some decent results what would yeild competitive scores.
As a rule, the 1911 and Pardini are still the way to go, but seeing someone try and develop a CZ alternative is interesting.
Brian
http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=26282.0
Whats interesting is someone has taken a CZ97 and milled the slide so it can take a 1911 barrel bushing and is getting some decent results what would yeild competitive scores.
As a rule, the 1911 and Pardini are still the way to go, but seeing someone try and develop a CZ alternative is interesting.
Brian
[/url]GunRunner wrote:Nobody talks about those guns for good reason they cant do whats needed if shooting competitive scores is the objective.Angry Inch wrote:I was looking for a discussion of an accurate .45 ACP that was not a 1911. It seems the 1911 crowd can not seem to talk about anything else. What about the SigP220 or the CZ 97?SK
The problem with using a non-1911 pistol is that the specialized parts and gunsmithing services needed to fine tune it to bullseye standards aren't available. So if you aren't lucky enough to get one that shoots great groups at 50 yards and has a nice trigger and target style sights, you're out of luck.
I've experimented with a Glock 37 (in .45 GAP) to see if I can make it into a competitive bullseye pistol. It has promise, but hitting the trifecta of accuracy, trigger and sights has been very challenging:
1) It's hard to do accuracy testing at 50 yards when you don't have a mechanical rest and your pistol's sights and trigger aren't very good.
2) Mounting a dot sight to the frame is easy, but the slide to frame fit is very loose. No one makes a scope mount rail that screws to the slide and the only target-grade dot sights that can mount directly to the slide cost $500+.
3) Tuning a Glock trigger down to a smooth 3.5 pounds risks reliability problems.
4) Glocks don't run well with light semi-wadcutter loads.
I've shelved this project for now as I barely have enough range time to stay proficient with my "real" bullseye pistols.
I've experimented with a Glock 37 (in .45 GAP) to see if I can make it into a competitive bullseye pistol. It has promise, but hitting the trifecta of accuracy, trigger and sights has been very challenging:
1) It's hard to do accuracy testing at 50 yards when you don't have a mechanical rest and your pistol's sights and trigger aren't very good.
2) Mounting a dot sight to the frame is easy, but the slide to frame fit is very loose. No one makes a scope mount rail that screws to the slide and the only target-grade dot sights that can mount directly to the slide cost $500+.
3) Tuning a Glock trigger down to a smooth 3.5 pounds risks reliability problems.
4) Glocks don't run well with light semi-wadcutter loads.
I've shelved this project for now as I barely have enough range time to stay proficient with my "real" bullseye pistols.
There are several possible alternatives in my opinion and they are all European guns.
1. Pardini GT 45. I have read several very positive reviews about this, con is the large grips that maybe difficult to get used to. I own the SP and HP which both are exceptional guns to say the least, i would think the GT 45 would be no different.
2. Sig P220 Match - I haven't read much about this gun's performance at 50 yards. Just few months ago, after I was done with my practice, I decided to see what my self defense pistol (a standard Sig P220 ST) and do at 25 yards. I fed it my standard bullseye loads (185 gr. SWCHP at approx 760 FPS), shot 20 rounds on the timed fire and all shots were in 10 ring, and this was with iron sights. I see possible potentials with this, especially the P220 Match. For a centerfire option, I have considered the P210 which should put all rounds in a x ring without any problems at 50 yards.
3. I read somewhere once that a HK Mark 23 Socom was tested at 50 yards with great grouping capability. Apparently some have tired it for bullseye pistol as well.
I think the best bet really if you want to get away from 1911 is try the Pardini, I do not think the latter have been proven amongst the bullseye community.
1. Pardini GT 45. I have read several very positive reviews about this, con is the large grips that maybe difficult to get used to. I own the SP and HP which both are exceptional guns to say the least, i would think the GT 45 would be no different.
2. Sig P220 Match - I haven't read much about this gun's performance at 50 yards. Just few months ago, after I was done with my practice, I decided to see what my self defense pistol (a standard Sig P220 ST) and do at 25 yards. I fed it my standard bullseye loads (185 gr. SWCHP at approx 760 FPS), shot 20 rounds on the timed fire and all shots were in 10 ring, and this was with iron sights. I see possible potentials with this, especially the P220 Match. For a centerfire option, I have considered the P210 which should put all rounds in a x ring without any problems at 50 yards.
3. I read somewhere once that a HK Mark 23 Socom was tested at 50 yards with great grouping capability. Apparently some have tired it for bullseye pistol as well.
I think the best bet really if you want to get away from 1911 is try the Pardini, I do not think the latter have been proven amongst the bullseye community.
The 6 inch Pardini GT-45 which I owned was superbly accurate with an exceptionally fine trigger much like their SP and HP models. It was also very reliable with a wide variety of handloads. I purchased it with the Docter red dot sight attached from Don Nygord. It uses magazines of the same width as the Para Ordnance wide bodied pistols. I cut a new notch into some Mecgar mags designed for the PO pistols and they worked well in the GT-45 with Pardini followers (much less expensive than the original Pardini mags).
I owned two of the old Sig 220 Sport pistols which had an aluminum comp attached to the front of a longer than normal barrel. Sig also offered a different front end which allowed one to use a Weaver style mounted red dot. It was accurate but very unwieldy. Also the Sig 45ACP barrels appeared to fould badly. I did not expereince any adverse fouling with Sig's 9mm and 40 S&W barrels.
I owned two of the old Sig 220 Sport pistols which had an aluminum comp attached to the front of a longer than normal barrel. Sig also offered a different front end which allowed one to use a Weaver style mounted red dot. It was accurate but very unwieldy. Also the Sig 45ACP barrels appeared to fould badly. I did not expereince any adverse fouling with Sig's 9mm and 40 S&W barrels.
I shoot sport pistol but am interested in all types of shooting. I am mainly a rifle shooter but like trying a little bit of everything when I can get a break from training. Not really familiar with Bullseye competition but would like some general info about the courses of fire and the pistols involved. I currently have a custom shop springfield 1911, a Kimber Target .45, a new Pardini GT9-6 and my Morini .22. Do I need a .45 with an electronic site set up to shoot wadcutters? What is the difference between a wad and ball gun? (I guess I need to start a new topic for the above but had only planned on asking additional questions about follow up posts but know the commentors will have the answers)
I saw someone suggested an STI Spartan with is made in the Phillipines and cost around $625. I've considered buying one just to have and because it is cheap. I have heard there is more money, tolerences and quality put into the US built STI's that are in the $1000 range like the Trojan. Does anyone have any experience with the Trojan and have any feedback on this gun and what would you need to do to get it competitive?
Can the STI guns with the 2011 frame and double stack magazines be used?
Also, I just recently ran across the Sig x-5 and x-6. They run $1500-$2500 depending on the model. Not sure if they make one in a .45 but are these players for shooting centerfire? Would like to know if anyone has experience with these and if Sig fits the frame to slide and makes it a custom pistol in addition to the adjustable trigger which is a great feature
I saw someone suggested an STI Spartan with is made in the Phillipines and cost around $625. I've considered buying one just to have and because it is cheap. I have heard there is more money, tolerences and quality put into the US built STI's that are in the $1000 range like the Trojan. Does anyone have any experience with the Trojan and have any feedback on this gun and what would you need to do to get it competitive?
Can the STI guns with the 2011 frame and double stack magazines be used?
Also, I just recently ran across the Sig x-5 and x-6. They run $1500-$2500 depending on the model. Not sure if they make one in a .45 but are these players for shooting centerfire? Would like to know if anyone has experience with these and if Sig fits the frame to slide and makes it a custom pistol in addition to the adjustable trigger which is a great feature
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marvelshooter
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A good source of reference is bullseyepistol.com You can use any .45, including revolvers, for NRA bullseye. You can use any sight or scope that does not emit a light on the target meaning no lasers. A .45 wadgun can be just about anything that shoots a .45 caliber bullet. A ball gun has to follow very specific rules and has to either a mostly stock 1911 .45 or Beretta M9 9mm. A lot of people shoot open sights in bullseye. Some use their ball gun.
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Freepistol
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I have a Trojan and it shoots well right out of the box, but I'm not done testing yet. The 2011 double stack frame is okay to use, but will cost more money for larger magazines that you can't fully load in bullseye.USMC0802 wrote:I shoot sport pistol but am interested in all types of shooting. I am mainly a rifle shooter but like trying a little bit of everything when I can get a break from training. Not really familiar with Bullseye competition but would like some general info about the courses of fire and the pistols involved. I currently have a custom shop springfield 1911, a Kimber Target .45, a new Pardini GT9-6 and my Morini .22. Do I need a .45 with an electronic site set up to shoot wadcutters? What is the difference between a wad and ball gun? (I guess I need to start a new topic for the above but had only planned on asking additional questions about follow up posts but know the commentors will have the answers)
I saw someone suggested an STI Spartan with is made in the Phillipines and cost around $625. I've considered buying one just to have and because it is cheap. I have heard there is more money, tolerences and quality put into the US built STI's that are in the $1000 range like the Trojan. Does anyone have any experience with the Trojan and have any feedback on this gun and what would you need to do to get it competitive?
Can the STI guns with the 2011 frame and double stack magazines be used?
Also, I just recently ran across the Sig x-5 and x-6. They run $1500-$2500 depending on the model. Not sure if they make one in a .45 but are these players for shooting centerfire? Would like to know if anyone has experience with these and if Sig fits the frame to slide and makes it a custom pistol in addition to the adjustable trigger which is a great feature
I can't believe no one talked about a Revolver.
A good revolver in 45 with a 6 inch barrel, adjustable sights or a sight rib and custom grips should be well under $1,000. If you go full up with a PPC or Bullseye gunsmith it will be more, but most of the tricks can be done by a reasonably competent home mechanic.
A revolver is slightly harder to shot in rapid fire than a semi-auto, but it doesn't take long to learn to cock the hammer quickly or shoot double action.
Steve Turner
A good revolver in 45 with a 6 inch barrel, adjustable sights or a sight rib and custom grips should be well under $1,000. If you go full up with a PPC or Bullseye gunsmith it will be more, but most of the tricks can be done by a reasonably competent home mechanic.
A revolver is slightly harder to shot in rapid fire than a semi-auto, but it doesn't take long to learn to cock the hammer quickly or shoot double action.
Steve Turner
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schatzperson
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- Location: Malta Europe
45
Old tread, but caught my minds eye.
"a well designed .45 pistol that can shoot 3.5" groups at 50 yards without being at the mercy of a bullseye pistol gunsmith"
Well, its certainly healthy to consider a CZ97 or a Pardini.
The CZ, once set up well , will do whats necessary at 50 yards. Its even easier to do this than on a regular 1911.
The problem is tradition and the resultant public perception, that in turn will screw up the demand/supply rationale of manufacturers.
I would go further than the "revolutionary" no link systems like Cz etc:
A tilting barrel has no place in well designed, affordable pistols with the correct ergonomic attributes.
Whats needed is a "cheap", fixed barrel, low bore axis, correct rake and adjustable trigger, And it cant be a browning lock.
Speaking unofficially to a major European gun maker with ideas for a gas retarded blowback, I got : " But who will buy this gun ?....americans wont touch it ( its heresy) and europeans dont care for a target 45".
I am sorry, we might just have to wait another 102 years.
"a well designed .45 pistol that can shoot 3.5" groups at 50 yards without being at the mercy of a bullseye pistol gunsmith"
Well, its certainly healthy to consider a CZ97 or a Pardini.
The CZ, once set up well , will do whats necessary at 50 yards. Its even easier to do this than on a regular 1911.
The problem is tradition and the resultant public perception, that in turn will screw up the demand/supply rationale of manufacturers.
I would go further than the "revolutionary" no link systems like Cz etc:
A tilting barrel has no place in well designed, affordable pistols with the correct ergonomic attributes.
Whats needed is a "cheap", fixed barrel, low bore axis, correct rake and adjustable trigger, And it cant be a browning lock.
Speaking unofficially to a major European gun maker with ideas for a gas retarded blowback, I got : " But who will buy this gun ?....americans wont touch it ( its heresy) and europeans dont care for a target 45".
I am sorry, we might just have to wait another 102 years.
I don't think you will get people to change because the 1911 works so well. I have tested a plain jane Kimber target 1911 that would put 10 shots into less than 3 inches at 50 yards and tested a Philippine model called a Metro that was about as good except with poor sights. It only cost around $400. There used to be a wide difference between stock type 1911's and a custom job but anymore they are not so far apart.
I ran across this design recently that was a prototype by High Standard engineer George Wilson in the early 1960's for Bullseye competition:
http://www.forgottenweapons.com/other-h ... -match-45/
http://www.invaluable.com/catalog/viewL ... =c&ri=1284
http://www.forgottenweapons.com/other-h ... -match-45/
http://www.invaluable.com/catalog/viewL ... =c&ri=1284
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Last edited by Sa-tevo on Sun Feb 02, 2014 8:55 am, edited 3 times in total.
Try the CZ 97 BE
I've shot a fair number of high quality 1911 pistols over the years -- Wilson, Les Baer, and several others -- though I've never owned one myself. They shot very tight groups to be sure.
I have several CZ 75 Shadow pistols in 9mm that I enjoy very much. When it came time to add a .45 to the stable, I purchased a customized CZ 97BE from Cajun Gun Works for $1350. See here: http://www.cajungunworks.com/cz-97b_-_bd.html
Well, the Cajun CZ shoots every bit as tight as the big dollar 1911 pistols for less than 1/2 the price. Not only that, but it has DA to go along with the SA and holds 10 rounds to boot. The bushing David at CGW installs and the internal workover he performs are just like magic. No kiddin'!
To be honest and fair, I must say that the CZ SA trigger is a little longer and has just a bit more drag in the initial take-up than those of the high-end 1911's I've shot. The CZ 97 does have a firing pin block safety still in place after all. However, I've found that difference to not effect either my shot times nor group sizes.
If you're looking for a quality, and very accurate, non-1911 style .45ACP pistol, don't be afraid to give CGW's CZ 97BE a good solid look.
I have several CZ 75 Shadow pistols in 9mm that I enjoy very much. When it came time to add a .45 to the stable, I purchased a customized CZ 97BE from Cajun Gun Works for $1350. See here: http://www.cajungunworks.com/cz-97b_-_bd.html
Well, the Cajun CZ shoots every bit as tight as the big dollar 1911 pistols for less than 1/2 the price. Not only that, but it has DA to go along with the SA and holds 10 rounds to boot. The bushing David at CGW installs and the internal workover he performs are just like magic. No kiddin'!
To be honest and fair, I must say that the CZ SA trigger is a little longer and has just a bit more drag in the initial take-up than those of the high-end 1911's I've shot. The CZ 97 does have a firing pin block safety still in place after all. However, I've found that difference to not effect either my shot times nor group sizes.
If you're looking for a quality, and very accurate, non-1911 style .45ACP pistol, don't be afraid to give CGW's CZ 97BE a good solid look.
Sa-Tevo,
Thanks for posting the picture and video link for the George Wilson 45.
I remember reading about that pistol in the 1970s, (in Pistol & Revolver Digest or some such publication). Their review was in keeping with the comments in the video. It was very positive with a bit more depth into the design and good insight into the needs of the serious competitive shooter.
It looks like it would be even more costly to produce than a P08 Luger. That's not to say there wouldn't be a ready market....
Regards,
Jim
PS: Nice facilities at the Scottsdale Gun Club.
Thanks for posting the picture and video link for the George Wilson 45.
I remember reading about that pistol in the 1970s, (in Pistol & Revolver Digest or some such publication). Their review was in keeping with the comments in the video. It was very positive with a bit more depth into the design and good insight into the needs of the serious competitive shooter.
It looks like it would be even more costly to produce than a P08 Luger. That's not to say there wouldn't be a ready market....
Regards,
Jim
PS: Nice facilities at the Scottsdale Gun Club.
Agreed.SteveT wrote:I can't believe no one talked about a Revolver.
A good revolver in 45 with a 6 inch barrel, adjustable sights or a sight rib and custom grips should be well under $1,000. If you go full up with a PPC or Bullseye gunsmith it will be more, but most of the tricks can be done by a reasonably competent home mechanic.
A revolver is slightly harder to shot in rapid fire than a semi-auto, but it doesn't take long to learn to cock the hammer quickly or shoot double action.
Steve Turner
I have a 4" 625 and it groups the ten ring bone stock.