Scoring with "tenths"
Moderators: pilkguns, Marcus, m1963, David Levene, Spencer
Scoring with "tenths"
I understand that at the most recent World Cup qualifier at the OTC that the scoring in the 3P and Prone matches included the "tenths" so that instead of a 595/600 in the prone match you might get a 625.8 depending on the total value of the 10.6s etc. I'm not sure that this is such a good thing. It will put even more pressure on shooters to find ammo that is the best match for their rifle and probably give the established shooters with access to AMU or Olympic team supplies of ammo a real advantage that an individual shooter won't have. We do have the Eley and Lapua testing facilities so an individual can use them but it just seems like another demand on a shooter's (usually) limited resources. Mike Barron
Unfortunatly as was made apparent last year when the 2013-2016 ISSF Rules were issued, with no real consultation with anybody the ISSF are ONLY concerened with the top 50 or so eliet shooters and the Olympic games. The grassroots and up and coming shooters are irrelavent to them. Too many shooters making HPS's at the highest level? Simple make the scoring rings so small that it is very unlikley that anyone will ever again make an HPS. I remember when the 89 series target was introduced, lots of moans and groans about it. Within months Malcom Cooper set a new (I think officia)l British record kneeling of 400 on three card system shooting on the completely open range at Bisley (for the Americans it's just like Camp Perry's ranges). The real problem is that once the WR/OR is an HPS thats it you can't set a new one.
Of course the lack of facilities for grass roots shooters will drive shooters away from the ISSF events. Here in the UK there is only ONE range with permament electronic scoring where you can shoot anything like a minor competetion. Thats the Malcom Cooper Range for 50m which is part of the Lord Robberts Center at Bisley. They also have 10m Air, but half that range is used as a Roller Hockey rink most of the time.to make money. There is now a permament installation in Wales at 50m but it is only 4 lanes. Scotland are Hosting the Comonwealth Games this year. The shooting events are going to be shot on a tempoary range that will be built and then imidiatly pulled down again at a cost of millions, exactly ad happened with the Olympics. Grass roots shooters will not be given even one opertunity to shoot on the ranges.
When it comes to club facilities here in the UK things are even worse. Most clubs are woeful with the levels of facilities so bad that I am surprised that we attract new members at all. The smallbore club my daughter and I shoot at has only had a toilet for about six years, the clubs been on the same site about 80 years though. The 10m club we shoot at is better, at least the faclities are not bad, all the target changers are electric. They are looking at getting two lanes of electronic targets too. This is a small club with a majority of Air Pistol shooters. The club is very sucessful though, with currently 3 Senior National Squad AP shooters, and the GB National AP/Free Pistol coach. We've also got some good Juniors, with 3 AP and one Rifle shooter in National squads. Given there are only about 50 members that's not bad. Given we can afford the electronics they will be in a lot of demand just for training the squad members at the club, let alone everyone else who will want to use them.
The change in rules though will hit the junior and young shooters the most. It has removed whole swathes of second hand kit that they might otherwise have used in competetion. Here that will not be such a problem for most shooting as National not ISSF rules are generally used. It may hit AR/AP as those rules have generally followed ISSF but without EC enforcement. Now the rules for those will also start to become different. For smallbore we have mostly continued to use national rules, shooting at 25 yards a lot as well as Dewars and English Matches on the 3 Card system. We have though generally gone over to targets that are proportional to the ISSF 50m target at all distances. The new Free rifle butt plate rule, despite claims by some in the ISSF to the contary, makes most of the plates from the 50's right through to the 80's illegal over most of the adjustment range and most from the 80's and 90's can very easily be adjusted to be illegal too. But then any rule written that can make a flat plate be too curved really needs to be addressed. So you shoot with a rifle under NGB rules with older kit, as is the case with many new shooters, kit that had been used at the Olympics for many years in most cases, and now you think about attending your first propper ISSF match and now you have to replace half your kit. Even though it was ISSF legal for years.
As to the original ammo question I don't think it will matter too much until you get to the eliete level as everyone is in the same boat. Yes there will always be an advantage to those with the money to get the very best. Once you are at the high level though you get the support. In actual fact the Decimal scoring will boost the lower shooters more than the really good ones. Ordinarily if you just dropped the odd shot out of the ten then you lost whole points, now it will be 0.1. It's much harder to shoot 10.9s than it is to shoot 9.9s. Even if you have ammo with no variation and a group size of zero I do not think it possible for a shooter to shoot consistently above 10.6. It dosen't really matter any more any way, as long as you qualify for the final that is now all that matters at high level, better be very goo at shooting the new final format, that's where it's going to really matter.
Anyway sorry for my rant I hope it wasn't really too far off topic.
Of course the lack of facilities for grass roots shooters will drive shooters away from the ISSF events. Here in the UK there is only ONE range with permament electronic scoring where you can shoot anything like a minor competetion. Thats the Malcom Cooper Range for 50m which is part of the Lord Robberts Center at Bisley. They also have 10m Air, but half that range is used as a Roller Hockey rink most of the time.to make money. There is now a permament installation in Wales at 50m but it is only 4 lanes. Scotland are Hosting the Comonwealth Games this year. The shooting events are going to be shot on a tempoary range that will be built and then imidiatly pulled down again at a cost of millions, exactly ad happened with the Olympics. Grass roots shooters will not be given even one opertunity to shoot on the ranges.
When it comes to club facilities here in the UK things are even worse. Most clubs are woeful with the levels of facilities so bad that I am surprised that we attract new members at all. The smallbore club my daughter and I shoot at has only had a toilet for about six years, the clubs been on the same site about 80 years though. The 10m club we shoot at is better, at least the faclities are not bad, all the target changers are electric. They are looking at getting two lanes of electronic targets too. This is a small club with a majority of Air Pistol shooters. The club is very sucessful though, with currently 3 Senior National Squad AP shooters, and the GB National AP/Free Pistol coach. We've also got some good Juniors, with 3 AP and one Rifle shooter in National squads. Given there are only about 50 members that's not bad. Given we can afford the electronics they will be in a lot of demand just for training the squad members at the club, let alone everyone else who will want to use them.
The change in rules though will hit the junior and young shooters the most. It has removed whole swathes of second hand kit that they might otherwise have used in competetion. Here that will not be such a problem for most shooting as National not ISSF rules are generally used. It may hit AR/AP as those rules have generally followed ISSF but without EC enforcement. Now the rules for those will also start to become different. For smallbore we have mostly continued to use national rules, shooting at 25 yards a lot as well as Dewars and English Matches on the 3 Card system. We have though generally gone over to targets that are proportional to the ISSF 50m target at all distances. The new Free rifle butt plate rule, despite claims by some in the ISSF to the contary, makes most of the plates from the 50's right through to the 80's illegal over most of the adjustment range and most from the 80's and 90's can very easily be adjusted to be illegal too. But then any rule written that can make a flat plate be too curved really needs to be addressed. So you shoot with a rifle under NGB rules with older kit, as is the case with many new shooters, kit that had been used at the Olympics for many years in most cases, and now you think about attending your first propper ISSF match and now you have to replace half your kit. Even though it was ISSF legal for years.
As to the original ammo question I don't think it will matter too much until you get to the eliete level as everyone is in the same boat. Yes there will always be an advantage to those with the money to get the very best. Once you are at the high level though you get the support. In actual fact the Decimal scoring will boost the lower shooters more than the really good ones. Ordinarily if you just dropped the odd shot out of the ten then you lost whole points, now it will be 0.1. It's much harder to shoot 10.9s than it is to shoot 9.9s. Even if you have ammo with no variation and a group size of zero I do not think it possible for a shooter to shoot consistently above 10.6. It dosen't really matter any more any way, as long as you qualify for the final that is now all that matters at high level, better be very goo at shooting the new final format, that's where it's going to really matter.
Anyway sorry for my rant I hope it wasn't really too far off topic.
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David Levene
- Posts: 5617
- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 12:49 pm
- Location: Ruislip, UK
I get the impression that some people may have overlooked (or simply not read the second printing) ISSF rule 6.3.4.b:-
Rifle and Pistol Elimination and Qualification Round competitions are scored in full ring values, except that in ISSF Championships, Elimination and Qualification Round competitions for 10m Air Rifle Men and Men Junior, 10m Air Rifle Women and Women Junior, 50m Rifle Prone Men and Men Junior and 50m Prone Women and Women Junior events must be scored in decimal values.
There is, of course, no reason why an organisation should not declare that qualification rounds should be scored decimally. That however would be an exception to the rules and should normally be declared in the program or entry documentation.
Rifle and Pistol Elimination and Qualification Round competitions are scored in full ring values, except that in ISSF Championships, Elimination and Qualification Round competitions for 10m Air Rifle Men and Men Junior, 10m Air Rifle Women and Women Junior, 50m Rifle Prone Men and Men Junior and 50m Prone Women and Women Junior events must be scored in decimal values.
There is, of course, no reason why an organisation should not declare that qualification rounds should be scored decimally. That however would be an exception to the rules and should normally be declared in the program or entry documentation.
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redschietti
- Posts: 386
- Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2011 4:31 pm
David
I do try to read the rules, a lot of people do. You do realize they are 472 pages long? Identifying rule changes could be as simple as making changed rules bold for a year, or as complex as publishing a complete list of changes. I realize a partial list of changes is out there, but ISSF wouldn't expect us to be partially compliant would they?
I do try to read the rules, a lot of people do. You do realize they are 472 pages long? Identifying rule changes could be as simple as making changed rules bold for a year, or as complex as publishing a complete list of changes. I realize a partial list of changes is out there, but ISSF wouldn't expect us to be partially compliant would they?
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WesternGrizzly
- Posts: 278
- Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 10:43 pm
I think people are making a mountain out of a mole hill. With regards ammo,it really makes zero difference. Elite shooters have batch tested ammo for decades and even at my club most of our shooters batch test. Doing that you're getting as close as possible to knowing the ammo will go exactly where the gun was pointing and not somwehere else (all other factors remaining equal).
Rob.
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As for the rules, it really is up to you to be aware of the rules for any competition you're shooting in. And they are not 572 pages long if you're only interested in rifle, it's 30 odd pages, plus another 30 or so if you want to read the technical rules for all disciplines. You also find that some very kind folks on here quite often produce a document containing the changes.I do try to read the rules, a lot of people do. You do realize they are 472 pages long?
Rob.
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