Sorry if this is a silly question but...
Whilst in the prone position the barrel wants to push left. I've read and been told to reduce the stock length (or LOP), however would I get the same result moving the hand stop back towards me?
I have recently set the LOP as the distance from my bent elbow with my hand on the trigger and prefer this distance as it stops my hand from feeling like its rotating around the grip, and isn't right up under my nose.
Could I move the hand stop back slightly instead or should I reduce the stock length (and by how much)? Would either have the same result or am I missing something?
Thanks for your help
Bryan
Reducing Length of pull or move hand stop back?
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I don't think there's enough information in your post to be able to come up with meaningful suggestions. I too don't follow what you mean when you say the gun wants to push left. Does it recoil left, does it feel loose, and what about your position, where does your gun sit relative to the left elbow ? I suggest you post up some photo's of you in position as well, as that is far more informative than words on a page.
Rob.
Rob.
Moving the handstop back will have a similar effect to moving in the butt, IF the problem is that there is too much space between butt and handstop to fit between your shoulder and supprting hand (so the right shoulder is forced back). As the gun is pushing to the left, this would be my first though(although there could be other causes, such as the sling being way to short). But moviing the handstop back will change the balance of the rifle (making it more front heavy), and you may still need to alter the length of pull.
Your method of setting butt length is rather crude, and better suited to shotguns than target rifles. It tends to give a butt that is very long; for instance I have my rifles set to about 12in from the back of the butt to the front of the grip, but using the forearm method it would be nearer 14in, which is far too long for me to shoot with comfortably. I also find that I need a slightly shorter LOP with wood stocks than I do with aluminium, as the wood stocks are deeper and the grip sits higher off the ground.
I think it's better to set the precise length of pull once you have set the handstop. The butt should be set so your hand falls comfortably onto the grip without any stretching or cramping. Ideally your wrsit should be straight; not all stock/grips will allow this, but it's a good sign if the wrist is straight. I also like to to see the cheek at the front of the cheekpiece, although if you have long arms and a short neck this may not be possible.
Rob is right a photo would help, or at least mentioning what rifle/stock you have.
Your method of setting butt length is rather crude, and better suited to shotguns than target rifles. It tends to give a butt that is very long; for instance I have my rifles set to about 12in from the back of the butt to the front of the grip, but using the forearm method it would be nearer 14in, which is far too long for me to shoot with comfortably. I also find that I need a slightly shorter LOP with wood stocks than I do with aluminium, as the wood stocks are deeper and the grip sits higher off the ground.
I think it's better to set the precise length of pull once you have set the handstop. The butt should be set so your hand falls comfortably onto the grip without any stretching or cramping. Ideally your wrsit should be straight; not all stock/grips will allow this, but it's a good sign if the wrist is straight. I also like to to see the cheek at the front of the cheekpiece, although if you have long arms and a short neck this may not be possible.
Rob is right a photo would help, or at least mentioning what rifle/stock you have.
Hi guys, sorry with being so vague.
I'm shooting an 1813, which I've only owned a few months after returning to shooting after a long (16yr) gap. I'm already hitting out the occasional ton but also the odd 95 and need to settle on a final fixed position to improve consistency from. When I bought the rifle the stock length was quite short and made me feel like my trigger hand was being rotated, pushing the trigger finger over and past the trigger blade. Extending the length makes my hand more comfortable however puts my check towards the middle/rear of the check piece.
However this now seems to be pushing my NPA to the left whist in position, exactly as you would imagine if the distance between the stop and butt plate were to be increased. Which is why i wondered if I could achieve the same result moving the handstop rather than adjusting the stock length.
I would add recoil is good and the sling is pretty tight too. It's just that as I settle into position my NPA is way to the left compared to where it used to be and I seem to be fighting against it.
Tim's comments make sense and that I may have set the length too far, I'm only 5'8"! If I can find someone to take some photo's over the weekend I'll post them up, if not I'll experiment on Monday night at the range! Maybe the title should have been 'how to set the correct length of pull' instead!
Thanks
Bryan
I'm shooting an 1813, which I've only owned a few months after returning to shooting after a long (16yr) gap. I'm already hitting out the occasional ton but also the odd 95 and need to settle on a final fixed position to improve consistency from. When I bought the rifle the stock length was quite short and made me feel like my trigger hand was being rotated, pushing the trigger finger over and past the trigger blade. Extending the length makes my hand more comfortable however puts my check towards the middle/rear of the check piece.
However this now seems to be pushing my NPA to the left whist in position, exactly as you would imagine if the distance between the stop and butt plate were to be increased. Which is why i wondered if I could achieve the same result moving the handstop rather than adjusting the stock length.
I would add recoil is good and the sling is pretty tight too. It's just that as I settle into position my NPA is way to the left compared to where it used to be and I seem to be fighting against it.
Tim's comments make sense and that I may have set the length too far, I'm only 5'8"! If I can find someone to take some photo's over the weekend I'll post them up, if not I'll experiment on Monday night at the range! Maybe the title should have been 'how to set the correct length of pull' instead!
Thanks
Bryan
It sounds like you have properly set your LOP for your trigger side arm length. You want to comfortably reach the trigger without having to twist or strangely conform your hand / wrist. From how you describe your hand position, I'd leave LOP alone from here.
You really don't care where your stock weld occurs, so long as it's repeatable, consistent and comfortable. If you end up farther back on the cheek piece, move your rear sight back to set proper eye relief once your stock weld is confirmed. This of course requires you setting your LOP first.
Your NPA is where you settle once in position. So rotate your position to get on target, quit fighting it as you say you are doing.
If you are not comfortable with your NPA being "way" to the left first I'd ask why? Are your shots landing on call with the new position? By this I mean shooting in the settled position, not where you are forcing the gun back to the right.
I hope this helps.
Lee
You really don't care where your stock weld occurs, so long as it's repeatable, consistent and comfortable. If you end up farther back on the cheek piece, move your rear sight back to set proper eye relief once your stock weld is confirmed. This of course requires you setting your LOP first.
I would suggest that your NPA IS to the left of where you think it should be! It really does not matter where your NPA used to be, it matters where it is now, with your present build, conditioning, equipment, phase of the moon!Bryan996 wrote:
However this now seems to be pushing my NPA to the left whist in position ...
...It's just that as I settle into position my NPA is way to the left compared to where it used to be and I seem to be fighting against it. ...
Your NPA is where you settle once in position. So rotate your position to get on target, quit fighting it as you say you are doing.
If you are not comfortable with your NPA being "way" to the left first I'd ask why? Are your shots landing on call with the new position? By this I mean shooting in the settled position, not where you are forcing the gun back to the right.
I hope this helps.
Lee
Bryan,
when you moved the butt out, did you alter the sling, or handstop?
If your sling and handstop were set, and then you moved the butt out a lot, this would make the butt much too tight in your shoulder. When this happens the shoulder is pushed back out of alignment (they should make a nice T shape with your spine), and the rifle will often point left.
One solution would be to move the handstop back - by the same distance you moved the butt. The other would be to shorten the butt.
I'll disagree with Lee here; if your head is a the rear of the cheekpiece, the butt is probably too long. I say probably as it's difficult to be categoric without seeing you. As for the desciption of your hand position, normally your hand will come onto the grip at an angle. Your hand shouldn't be dead flat along the side of the stock. Now if the hand does come too far round the grip, this isn't ideal, but it shouldn't take much extra length to get the hand in the right place. The 1813 is sized to fit an average height adult man; a taller man will normally want the butt made longer, but not by much, maybe 1in for a 6-footer.
This might be too obvious, but if the trigger was too close, did you try to move it forwards?
when you moved the butt out, did you alter the sling, or handstop?
If your sling and handstop were set, and then you moved the butt out a lot, this would make the butt much too tight in your shoulder. When this happens the shoulder is pushed back out of alignment (they should make a nice T shape with your spine), and the rifle will often point left.
One solution would be to move the handstop back - by the same distance you moved the butt. The other would be to shorten the butt.
I'll disagree with Lee here; if your head is a the rear of the cheekpiece, the butt is probably too long. I say probably as it's difficult to be categoric without seeing you. As for the desciption of your hand position, normally your hand will come onto the grip at an angle. Your hand shouldn't be dead flat along the side of the stock. Now if the hand does come too far round the grip, this isn't ideal, but it shouldn't take much extra length to get the hand in the right place. The 1813 is sized to fit an average height adult man; a taller man will normally want the butt made longer, but not by much, maybe 1in for a 6-footer.
This might be too obvious, but if the trigger was too close, did you try to move it forwards?
Hi TimS,
I don't really think we are in disagreement here, I think we are falling prey to short explanations of complex issues. Trying to fit into a small text box has its limitations!
Would you agree that the LOP's primary goal is to adjust for a proper trigger reach? (this entails shoulder to spine alignment, wrist angle, finger placement etc.)
If so, then would you agree that once proper LOP is established, you take whatever stock weld you get, acknowledging that the farther forward the better? Or would you state that you should change LOP in preference to stock weld?
Or something else? <grin>
By the way, I agree that pictures are very helpful with this!
Lee
I don't really think we are in disagreement here, I think we are falling prey to short explanations of complex issues. Trying to fit into a small text box has its limitations!
Would you agree that the LOP's primary goal is to adjust for a proper trigger reach? (this entails shoulder to spine alignment, wrist angle, finger placement etc.)
If so, then would you agree that once proper LOP is established, you take whatever stock weld you get, acknowledging that the farther forward the better? Or would you state that you should change LOP in preference to stock weld?
Or something else? <grin>
By the way, I agree that pictures are very helpful with this!
Lee
Hi Lee,
I think we're mostly agreeing.
With an 1813, I'd set the butt length for a comfortable reach to the grip*. The head rests the cheekpiece, wherever it is comfortable.
With a more modern stock, say a 1918, you can move the cheekpeice and even the grip forwards, so you could have the butt shorter (and the action closer).
Where I think we're disagreeing, is I suspect that Bryan may not actually have the correct LOP, and that he has extended the butt much too far (unless he has a very short neck). For example I normally shoot with a 12in butt-grip setting; I can shoot with a 14in setting (with the handstop moved back), but it doesn't make the longer setting correct.
*As the 1813 trigger can be moved on it's rail, trigger reach should be set by moved the balde, not the butt/grip.
I think we're mostly agreeing.
With an 1813, I'd set the butt length for a comfortable reach to the grip*. The head rests the cheekpiece, wherever it is comfortable.
With a more modern stock, say a 1918, you can move the cheekpeice and even the grip forwards, so you could have the butt shorter (and the action closer).
Where I think we're disagreeing, is I suspect that Bryan may not actually have the correct LOP, and that he has extended the butt much too far (unless he has a very short neck). For example I normally shoot with a 12in butt-grip setting; I can shoot with a 14in setting (with the handstop moved back), but it doesn't make the longer setting correct.
*As the 1813 trigger can be moved on it's rail, trigger reach should be set by moved the balde, not the butt/grip.
Thanks for your replies guys.
The trigger itself is adjusted all the way forward, I've even reversed the vertical pin to bring it as forward as possible. I've just measured the LOP and butt plate to trigger is 13 3/4 inch, so maybe too far. However the stock is only adjusted out by 1 1/4" so I wouldn't be able to reach 12" you state Tim.
I'm beginning to believe I need to see photos of myself, as much as you guys, to understand what's going on!
Cheers
Bryan
The trigger itself is adjusted all the way forward, I've even reversed the vertical pin to bring it as forward as possible. I've just measured the LOP and butt plate to trigger is 13 3/4 inch, so maybe too far. However the stock is only adjusted out by 1 1/4" so I wouldn't be able to reach 12" you state Tim.
I'm beginning to believe I need to see photos of myself, as much as you guys, to understand what's going on!
Cheers
Bryan
Bryan,
you maybe have reached 12in already. An 1813 measures a bit under 11in from butt to grip, so adding 1.25in, would make 12in. If youre tall, it wouldn't be excessive
When you say you have reversed the trigger blade, is this the standard black blade? The only Anschutz trigger I can think of where reversing the blade would increase the reach is the old 1400 two-stage, but this won't work properly with the 1813 bolt.
you maybe have reached 12in already. An 1813 measures a bit under 11in from butt to grip, so adding 1.25in, would make 12in. If youre tall, it wouldn't be excessive
When you say you have reversed the trigger blade, is this the standard black blade? The only Anschutz trigger I can think of where reversing the blade would increase the reach is the old 1400 two-stage, but this won't work properly with the 1813 bolt.
muzzle moving to left
In my experience (RH shooter) moving the handstop out and the butt towards the neck will move the muzzle to the right. As we all know, this involves many other adjustments to the sling, LOP, placement of cheek on cheekpiece and placement of elbow on the mat. Like many things in life its complicated. Mike Barron
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WesternGrizzly
- Posts: 278
- Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 10:43 pm
I would suggest looking at a different aspect altogether. I would look at your support arm. If your elbow is placed under the rifle (think of David Tubb's position) as the day goes on your NPA will move to the left because your left arm isn't straight coming out of the shoulder. The other thing to look at is the sling. If your sling is pulling from the outside, it can pull the left arm and rifle that direction. So try setting up your sling so it pulls from center. If it still pulls to the left, put the sling a bit to the inside of the arm (about 1-2mm) and try that.
Matt
Matt
Thanks for everyone's input on this.
I've had some time off from work so I've been spending quite a lot of time at the range trying most combinations! For the best results I ended up bringing the hand stop back slightly to raise my position, and then adjusted the sling accordingly.
Many thanks
Bryan
I've had some time off from work so I've been spending quite a lot of time at the range trying most combinations! For the best results I ended up bringing the hand stop back slightly to raise my position, and then adjusted the sling accordingly.
Many thanks
Bryan
This article is for adjusting a Elisio tube gun stock. But I like it a lot. It may help answer some questions.
http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/20 ... stock.html
http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/20 ... stock.html