Hi,
After a very disappointing trip to Eley to batch test my rifle (only 6000 rounds on the barrel) and the Bleika next to me putting mine to shame, I think a new barrel is in order. The rifle is a AHG/Anschutz F27A (fortner action Anschutz barrel) I love the fortner action & G&E stock, else I would just put the whole thing in the bin. (Bleika was getting 14mm groups of 10, mine with most ammo batches, mine was doing 20's)
Would be grateful if anybody has had their barrel changed or major gunsmith work carried & can recommend a good gunsmith to use in the UK.
Have tried what looks like a good company in Linconshire, but they won't do a .22 (don't see why they can't as they import Kreig barrels thus have the import licence, obviously just don't want my money) and have tried a barrel company in Birmingham, left messages but they have yet to return my calls.
Thanks all.
new .22 barrel needed, best gunsmith to do the work?
Moderators: pilkguns, Marcus, m1963, David Levene, Spencer
I don't know your rifle at all but I can share your disappointment at the batch testing results. A cheaper option might be simply to buy a lightly used Anschutz 1813 or whichever 18 series stock you prefer. I bought one that had obviously not been abused but with no guarantee attached and found that it would shoot 14 mm with Lapua Midas and one exceptional batch of Lapua Centre X when tested at Bisley summer 2012. I have to admit, however, that I have paired it with a Gemini stock.
Nibbs comes highly recommended for barrel work. He did a great job rechambering my 1613 last year, and many others swear by him. Another contender would be Steve Kershaw; an aquintance had a Lilja (same brand that Bleiker use) fitted by him last year, and is very pleased. Border Barrels would be another good choice.
The company in Lincolnshire may not have been interested as .22 barrels are I beleive slightly fiddlier to remove and fit (aligning extractor slots) than fullbore, so if their books are full with fullbore rifles, they may well not want to take on fiddly work. Also I'm not sure that Kreiger are making many .22 barrels at the moment, so importing a different brand may have needed a new (and expensive) license for the one barrel.
However it could just be bad luck in that none of the test batches suited your rifle; another day and different batches and the rsults may have been much better. What did the Eley staff say about the barrel? Have you tried testing Lapua or RWS?
The company in Lincolnshire may not have been interested as .22 barrels are I beleive slightly fiddlier to remove and fit (aligning extractor slots) than fullbore, so if their books are full with fullbore rifles, they may well not want to take on fiddly work. Also I'm not sure that Kreiger are making many .22 barrels at the moment, so importing a different brand may have needed a new (and expensive) license for the one barrel.
However it could just be bad luck in that none of the test batches suited your rifle; another day and different batches and the rsults may have been much better. What did the Eley staff say about the barrel? Have you tried testing Lapua or RWS?
Last edited by Tim S on Thu Dec 05, 2013 4:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
Tim makes an excellent point about trying different batches and brands of ammunition. Continuing just with my 1813's history, this year it shot very poorly with all the batches of RWS 50 that the suppliers had on offer at Bisley. Nothing better than 15 mm and most of the results were really quite bad, so I didn't buy any. On the other hand, I know of at least one other shooter with a similar barrel to mine who was getting 12-13 mm from at least two of the RWS batches that I tried. I am now carefully husbanding my remaining Lapua from the previous year.
barrels
Hi Guys,
thank you all for your helpful suggestions, greatly appreciated.
Have tried calling Border Barrels, alas they have not returned my phone call. I understand they are currently moving to Birmingham, so they may be a little busy at the moment.
Mr Nibbs is very local to me and have spoken to him whist typing this. He seems a most amenable gentleman & has given me some good advise as to barrel maintenance & to try this first. Have arranged to meet with him with a view to inspect the rifle & bore scope it.
Of course the next question is button or cut barrel & which make. I guess they are all pretty good.
The problem with trying other ammo brands is how to test it in a controlled environment. the only real option I would have is to bench rest at 25 yards.
This has now generated a spin off topic, how should the barrel be cleaned. I have always used VFG felts with 009 solvent, or sometimes an aerosol & leave to soak for a while. Mr Nibbs days this will not remove any lead & that I must use VFG blue paste.
will keep you updated on my quest for perfection :o)
Regards all,
Nige.
thank you all for your helpful suggestions, greatly appreciated.
Have tried calling Border Barrels, alas they have not returned my phone call. I understand they are currently moving to Birmingham, so they may be a little busy at the moment.
Mr Nibbs is very local to me and have spoken to him whist typing this. He seems a most amenable gentleman & has given me some good advise as to barrel maintenance & to try this first. Have arranged to meet with him with a view to inspect the rifle & bore scope it.
Of course the next question is button or cut barrel & which make. I guess they are all pretty good.
The problem with trying other ammo brands is how to test it in a controlled environment. the only real option I would have is to bench rest at 25 yards.
This has now generated a spin off topic, how should the barrel be cleaned. I have always used VFG felts with 009 solvent, or sometimes an aerosol & leave to soak for a while. Mr Nibbs days this will not remove any lead & that I must use VFG blue paste.
will keep you updated on my quest for perfection :o)
Regards all,
Nige.
Nibbs is right to a degree, felts and 009 alone can leave lead in the bore. This is because lead is pretty much inert. 009 will dissolve the rest of the fouling, not lead. I believe that mercury and peroxide come close to dissolving lead, but these are highly toxic. Most shooters will get rid of lead by soaking the bore with 009 (or their solvent of choice), and then brushing with a bonze wire brush. The 009 won't dissolve lead, but it will dissolve the crud around it, and can creep underneath, so it can be loosened by the brush. Nylon bristle brushes won't work quite so well as bronze.
The alternative is to use a very fine abrasive paste like VFG, IOSSO, or JB, to polish away lead deposits. Abrasives can damage the barrel more easily than regular cleaning methods if handled badly, so be gentle. I use VFG paste once every year or two; apply with a felt, and then swab out with oiled patches ( a lot of patches normally 40+ for me). I clean with solvent and a brush after shooting, so there should be little lead in my bore.
The alternative is to use a very fine abrasive paste like VFG, IOSSO, or JB, to polish away lead deposits. Abrasives can damage the barrel more easily than regular cleaning methods if handled badly, so be gentle. I use VFG paste once every year or two; apply with a felt, and then swab out with oiled patches ( a lot of patches normally 40+ for me). I clean with solvent and a brush after shooting, so there should be little lead in my bore.
As Nibbs has said to me more than once - if you're using Eley ammunition then you probably aren't too worried about abrasive substances in your bore...
But then I've seen posts from Warren Potent who disagrees about the use of bore pastes - he wouldn't.
His cleaning regime is detailed here and is a good reference I think :
http://www.targetshooting.co.nz/ubbthre ... l#Post4932
Ken.
But then I've seen posts from Warren Potent who disagrees about the use of bore pastes - he wouldn't.
His cleaning regime is detailed here and is a good reference I think :
http://www.targetshooting.co.nz/ubbthre ... l#Post4932
Ken.
[quote="KennyB"]As Nibbs has said to me more than once - if you're using Eley ammunition then you probably aren't too worried about abrasive substances in your bore...
Sorry to be a bit stupid, but does this mean that Eley ammo is more likely to abrade your barrel than other makes - or less likely??
Sorry to be a bit stupid, but does this mean that Eley ammo is more likely to abrade your barrel than other makes - or less likely??
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metermatch
- Posts: 196
- Joined: Sun Jan 09, 2005 4:30 pm
- Location: Los Angeles, CA
Barrel cleaning/ new barrel
Over the years I have heard stories about barrel erosion from Eley - usually from guys trying to sell me RWS R50 ammo....
My barrel is a Schneider installed by Karl Kenyon in 1987. It has 125,000 to 150,000 rounds through it. I clean it maybe every 3000-5000 rounds. I have used pretty much Eley Tenex exclusively. I have set 8 US national records with it, so it obviously works. It still shoots master scores, 25+ years later.
Over the years, I have heard many stories from guys about short barrel life. I have noticed they frequently are the barrel cleaners....I think far more smallbore barrels are damaged from cleaning, than from not cleaning.
Anyone that shoots smallbore prone has noticed that every time you lay down and shoot, you need to just shoot 3-5 fouler rounds right into the berm, then go for sighters. If you clean the barrel, you can have flyers as many as 10 to 15 rounds later. So what is the point of cleaning the barrel that much? I have never detected any noticeable difference in accuracy from a clean barrel to one with 5000 rounds through (smallbore only).
If you are having a problem after 6000 rounds, you either have a crap barrel, something funny with the fortner action, you/someone has damaged it (like from too much cleaning), or frankly, are you capable of better groups? In other words, could you do 14mm groups with the other guys' rifle?
If you are shooting prone, ditch the fortner and get something like a 1813. I have never seen a forther in prone. There may be some accuracy compromises with the action. The biathlon target is the size of a barn door compared to prone.
Sorry, can't help with gunshith ideas where you are, and Karl Kenyon passed a few years ago.
Jeff
My barrel is a Schneider installed by Karl Kenyon in 1987. It has 125,000 to 150,000 rounds through it. I clean it maybe every 3000-5000 rounds. I have used pretty much Eley Tenex exclusively. I have set 8 US national records with it, so it obviously works. It still shoots master scores, 25+ years later.
Over the years, I have heard many stories from guys about short barrel life. I have noticed they frequently are the barrel cleaners....I think far more smallbore barrels are damaged from cleaning, than from not cleaning.
Anyone that shoots smallbore prone has noticed that every time you lay down and shoot, you need to just shoot 3-5 fouler rounds right into the berm, then go for sighters. If you clean the barrel, you can have flyers as many as 10 to 15 rounds later. So what is the point of cleaning the barrel that much? I have never detected any noticeable difference in accuracy from a clean barrel to one with 5000 rounds through (smallbore only).
If you are having a problem after 6000 rounds, you either have a crap barrel, something funny with the fortner action, you/someone has damaged it (like from too much cleaning), or frankly, are you capable of better groups? In other words, could you do 14mm groups with the other guys' rifle?
If you are shooting prone, ditch the fortner and get something like a 1813. I have never seen a forther in prone. There may be some accuracy compromises with the action. The biathlon target is the size of a barn door compared to prone.
Sorry, can't help with gunshith ideas where you are, and Karl Kenyon passed a few years ago.
Jeff
Jeff,
so you have personally spoken with every smallbore prone shooter in the world, and tested every barrel to make the statement that all barrels need fouling shots? No? I thought not.
I agree that some barrels need fouling shots after a clean, but not all do (mine certainly does not), so it's simply untrue to say that every barrel does. If infrequent cleaning works for you, that's fine, but you cannot dismiss that other shooters report better/more consistent accuracy when they clean regularly.
Rover
Then don't read this.
so you have personally spoken with every smallbore prone shooter in the world, and tested every barrel to make the statement that all barrels need fouling shots? No? I thought not.
I agree that some barrels need fouling shots after a clean, but not all do (mine certainly does not), so it's simply untrue to say that every barrel does. If infrequent cleaning works for you, that's fine, but you cannot dismiss that other shooters report better/more consistent accuracy when they clean regularly.
Rover
Then don't read this.
If I understand his hypothesis - the priming compound that Eley is now using in their Eleyprime system is reputed to deposit glass debris in the bore as one of the products of combustion. If it is allowed to cool, then the first round down the barrel might then have the effect of lapping the bore slightly.Cumbrian wrote:Sorry to be a bit stupid, but does this mean that Eley ammo is more likely to abrade your barrel than other makes - or less likely??KennyB wrote:As Nibbs has said to me more than once - if you're using Eley ammunition then you probably aren't too worried about abrasive substances in your bore...
Repeat this over a number of years and....
...well it might be bunk but when a reputable gunsmith tells you something, what are you going to do?
BTW, I used to be a "once a season" cleaning guy. Then I read Warren's post and started to be more conscientious about it and my scores are a lot higher now.
I'm not saying that it's a direct result of the cleaning as I've trained a lot too.
Just my anecdotal experience - I'm just going to carry on doing what Warren suggests doing in that respect.
K.
Kenny, thank you for your enlightening explanation. I had heard about these glass deposits but gloomily assumed that all manufacturers were using the compound. If they don't, all the more reason to buy RWS or Lapua. I don't buy Eley anyway because Tenex is so expensive and also because Eley apparently can't be bothered to offer batch testing during the Bisley fortnight.
barrels & actions
The Eley ammo does seem to leave horrible gritty stuff in the rifle. I notice it in the breach. Whether or not it contributes to wear I do not know. One would assume Eley would not knowingly make ammo that would damage a barrel.
At the Eley test facility, all rifles are clamped securely in their test rig, so it does not matter if one shooter can group 14s and another 17s, the human factor is removed. This is what makes their facility so good. There is nowhere else I know of in the UK where one can batch test ammunition in this way.
I think the 'how often to clean the barrel' debate will rumble on for ever. I cannot see how 009 and a felt pushed up the barrel by hand would hurt a barrel in any way, when we are ramming lumps of lead up there at high velocities.
At the Eley test facility, all rifles are clamped securely in their test rig, so it does not matter if one shooter can group 14s and another 17s, the human factor is removed. This is what makes their facility so good. There is nowhere else I know of in the UK where one can batch test ammunition in this way.
I think the 'how often to clean the barrel' debate will rumble on for ever. I cannot see how 009 and a felt pushed up the barrel by hand would hurt a barrel in any way, when we are ramming lumps of lead up there at high velocities.
Hi Cumbrian,
Eley have invested a fortune in their test facility in Birmingham. The test benches move on huge V blocks and once locked will not move, they have dummy stocks of almost every type to mount the action. The computer software is fantastic, it is so simple to use. All indoors, with tea/coffe/loo available. I tested 26 batches at 50 metres, then tested the best batches again. You get a computer printout of all groups & test results. In all it takes about 4 hours.
Whilst this may not be convenient for all, (Bisley is local to me, Eley a 3 hour drive) there is no way Eley could offer this same level of service with a mobile rig, even if they could, at 4 hours a pop, not many people would be able to use it over a Bisley weekend.
Don't be too hard on Eley, they have opted to invest heavily in a purpose built static test facility, open to all, all year round, rather than a portable system for shows & events.
Should Laupa or RWS have such a facility in the UK I would definitely try their ammunition.
Eley have invested a fortune in their test facility in Birmingham. The test benches move on huge V blocks and once locked will not move, they have dummy stocks of almost every type to mount the action. The computer software is fantastic, it is so simple to use. All indoors, with tea/coffe/loo available. I tested 26 batches at 50 metres, then tested the best batches again. You get a computer printout of all groups & test results. In all it takes about 4 hours.
Whilst this may not be convenient for all, (Bisley is local to me, Eley a 3 hour drive) there is no way Eley could offer this same level of service with a mobile rig, even if they could, at 4 hours a pop, not many people would be able to use it over a Bisley weekend.
Don't be too hard on Eley, they have opted to invest heavily in a purpose built static test facility, open to all, all year round, rather than a portable system for shows & events.
Should Laupa or RWS have such a facility in the UK I would definitely try their ammunition.
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metermatch
- Posts: 196
- Joined: Sun Jan 09, 2005 4:30 pm
- Location: Los Angeles, CA
cleaning
I wouldn't normally expect a few patches and a brush to damage a bore. The damage usually would come from someone being careless with the way it is done, such as poshing a dirty rod/brush through the bore, not using a guide, pulling the rod back to fast/hard/ whatever and nicking the crown, etc. This where I have heard gunsmiths say that more barrels are damaged by cleaning than by not cleaning.
When I have cleaned my gun after thousands of rounds, all it takes is 2 wet patches, one dry one, and it is done. It has been looked at couple of times with a bore scope, and it is clean.
If a smallbore barrel needs heavy cleaning/abrasive compound barrel to clean it, you have a crap barrel with a lot of machining marks in it that is catching the fouling/lead. Get a new barrel from a top manufaccturer.
Jeff
When I have cleaned my gun after thousands of rounds, all it takes is 2 wet patches, one dry one, and it is done. It has been looked at couple of times with a bore scope, and it is clean.
If a smallbore barrel needs heavy cleaning/abrasive compound barrel to clean it, you have a crap barrel with a lot of machining marks in it that is catching the fouling/lead. Get a new barrel from a top manufaccturer.
Jeff
"Don't be too hard on Eley, they have opted to invest heavily in a purpose built static test facility, open to all, all year round, rather than a portable system for shows & events."
I take your point, not that Eley will care about my opinion one way or the other. Lapua and RWS, being foreign, have no choice but to use portable facilities, if one can call the heavy, bolted, iron stands at Bisley 'portable', and I appreciate the effort they make when the extra sales from the Bisley tests can't amount to a big chunk of their turnover. It is, however, above all the cost of Tenex and, indeed, Eley Match nowadays that I find hard to swallow. I have also had a few misfires from Eley Match and none from Lapua or RWS. Finally, I have read - how true it may be I cannot say - that Eley send their best batches of Tenex to America and the rest of the world, simply because the UK market is small in comparison. Maybe Lapua and RWS do the same - anybody know? Apologies if all this is veering off the original subject you raised, but I have found the spin-off interesting. Good luck with your new barrel. Over and out.
I take your point, not that Eley will care about my opinion one way or the other. Lapua and RWS, being foreign, have no choice but to use portable facilities, if one can call the heavy, bolted, iron stands at Bisley 'portable', and I appreciate the effort they make when the extra sales from the Bisley tests can't amount to a big chunk of their turnover. It is, however, above all the cost of Tenex and, indeed, Eley Match nowadays that I find hard to swallow. I have also had a few misfires from Eley Match and none from Lapua or RWS. Finally, I have read - how true it may be I cannot say - that Eley send their best batches of Tenex to America and the rest of the world, simply because the UK market is small in comparison. Maybe Lapua and RWS do the same - anybody know? Apologies if all this is veering off the original subject you raised, but I have found the spin-off interesting. Good luck with your new barrel. Over and out.