Should BE rebalance the course of fire to emphasize .22?

Mike M. · Post by **Mike M.** » Wed Oct 30, 2013 7:19 pm

I'm going to start a fight here, but I'll say it.

Bullseye is strangling itself with centerfire ammo, and needs to rearrange the course of fire to make about 2/3rds of it smallbore.

Factory centerfire ammo is insanely expensive. If you buy .45 wadcutter from a good dealer like Champion's Choice, you're talking around $35 per box of 50. At that rate, a shooter competing in a 2700 will eat nearly $140 of centerfire ammo. His smallbore bill for that match? Around $10, for good midgrade RWS or Eley ammo.

Yes, you can save money reloading. If you have the time. If you have the space. A lot of potential competitors are short of both.

I think the time may have come to rearrange the courses of fire. I'd keep the National Match Course in CF, .45, and Revolver...but make most of the rest .22. And bring the cost under control.

Comments? Thoughts?

Isabel1130 · Post by **Isabel1130** » Wed Oct 30, 2013 8:13 pm

I reload. Most bullseye shooters I know reload. My averaged cost per round is only slightly more for my centerfire and .45 rounds than the current high price for rim fire, which has been almost as difficult to find in the last 10 months as centerfire cartridges.
The only people shooting bullseye who don't reload, and shoot more than a match or two a year, are the rich, the mathematically impaired, and the supported shooters, who have their ammo provided to them.
Unlike a rifle cartridge, a center fire pistol cartridge with the light loads we use in bullseye, can be reloaded indefinitely.
A far bigger expense than ammo for me, is the gas, hotel and the occasional plane ticket to get to the matches I want to shoot, (and I want to shoot twenty or so full 2700's a year)

If you are going to shoot bullseye and be at all competitive, you cant constrain yourself artificially by waving away reloading. I am amazed at the people who try and tell me that they dont have the time or the space to reload, when all they need is about three square feet for a progressive press, and a cabinet underneath.

These same people think that driving all over town looking for ammo or searching online dealers is a better use of the time they "don't have" to reload.
It takes me half an hour to knock out enough rounds to shoot a match.
If you don't have that, you don't have the time to practice or go to matches, which would make a shift to a two thirds rimfire format, questionable also.

C. Perkins · Post by **C. Perkins** » Wed Oct 30, 2013 8:19 pm

MikeM;

Well, you can do what I did.
Shot 2700's for 4 years, made Master(my goal).
For expense of the sport I got rid of my .45 and went to a M52 for centerfire.
I now do not do 2700's.
Just the .22 and CF for this past year.
I do not have a problem with it.
I chose to do it.
Bullseye is Bullseye and I cannot expect it to change around my issues.
Reloading would be a better option and I know some cannot, but most do, due to the expense.

Clarence

oldcaster · Post by **oldcaster** » Wed Oct 30, 2013 8:31 pm

Most of the time, you can shoot all 22 and take the percentage penalty. I want my ammo tailored to me and that means reload and it is quite likely that you can get your own tailored hand loads to shoot more accurately than what you can buy because it is not tailored to an individual gun but generic.

Isabel1130 · Post by **Isabel1130** » Wed Oct 30, 2013 8:41 pm

oldcaster wrote:Most of the time, you can shoot all 22 and take the percentage penalty. I want my ammo tailored to me and that means reload and it is quite likely that you can get your own tailored hand loads to shoot more accurately than what you can buy because it is not tailored to an individual gun but generic.

I have never heard of shooting 22 all the way through and getting your score to count with a penalty.

Your buddy Steve lets people do that at his matches, but you cannot shoot the Centerfire or 45 match for record with a .22. It is practice only.

Also Mike, if you need some links as to where to buy reasonably priced components for reloading, I would be happy to provide them.

Rover · Post by **Rover** » Wed Oct 30, 2013 9:11 pm

There are 2700s and there are 900s.

You can shoot only the .22 portion of a 2700 and you could win that match. Make you feel better?

Then there are all the 900s. These are mostly, but not all, indoors. They are .22 matches. Go for it.

If you don't want to play with the big boys.....don't.

dronning · Post by **dronning** » Wed Oct 30, 2013 10:49 pm

Answer to the original post:

No

Misny · Post by **Misny** » Thu Oct 31, 2013 9:16 am

I don't think that space and/or time to reload are valid arguments. Now if you said that you don't want to learn to reload and don't think you'd like it, then I could understand. When I first got into reloading I lived with my wife and baby in a 3 room apartment. There are plenty of ways to reload with limited space. With the progressive presses, like the Dillon Square Deal, one can load a substantial amount of ammo in a very short time. Finding the time and a place to train can be time consuming and a problem. I hate to admit it, but bullseye pistol shooting is dying out. Changing the course to mostly .22, most likely won't increase participation. When I first started shooting bullseye, I couldn't afford to shoot anything but a .22 pistol. I just shot the .22 match. I really enjoyed those days. When my financial situation improved, I got a 1911 and a single-stage press. As money was available, I upgraded my pistols and reloading equipment.

GunRunner · Post by **GunRunner** » Thu Oct 31, 2013 10:29 am

Conventional pistol is a sport thats many decades old, to change it to accommodate the few that cant make time to do what is necessary to compete is ridiculous. I dont compete in NASCAR because i cant afford the cost of a race car, should they make a rule change and let me race my pickup? You can ask your fellow shooters if they could help you out by loading for you at a reasonable cost, i did that for a friend this whole last season because his work kept him on the go, i loaded 200 rounds, he paid for the components and returned my brass, he has bought a loader and will now over the off season load his own for next season. cost to him, 35.00 total.Or you can as others have said just shoot your 22, you can obtain any class from scores fired of several 900 22 courses. Or you could move onto smallbore rifle and shoot that which many pistol shooters do, but dont ask the bullseye community to change the game cause of your not willing to do what is necessary to be a competitor.

Jerry Keefer · Post by **Jerry Keefer** » Thu Oct 31, 2013 11:39 am

GunRunner wrote:Conventional pistol is a sport thats many decades old, to change it to accommodate the few that cant make time to do what is necessary to compete is ridiculous. I dont compete in NASCAR because i cant afford the cost of a race car, should they make a rule change and let me race my pickup? , but dont ask the bullseye community to change the game cause of your not willing to do what is necessary to be a competitor.

I like this Gunrunner :).. If some of you have not noticed or are unaware...Over on the Bullseye Forum, the New Director of Competitions has thrown around a few proposals to dramatically change the format of Perry/Bullseye Competition in general.. One such proposal is doing away with turning targets, using electronic targets with red and green lights, which score electronically;( and shortening the the National event. I am totally opposed to all of this. It might be worth while for those against changing it to please a few malcontents, to voice our objections on that forum also, or contact our esteemed director..Someone has overlooked how much effort, training, money and equipment "serious competitors" devote to this game. I will never forget the late Col. Al Bacon saying to me when he first entered my shop years ago.... "Bullseye may be a game to some, but I am very serious about this.."
Jerry

Trooperjake · Post by **Trooperjake** » Thu Oct 31, 2013 12:08 pm

My 2 cents says, if it ain't broken don't fix it.
It cost me .13 cents a round to reload a 45 less the brass.
You should by now have plenty of once fired brass.
My match 22's cost me .13 cents a round. My practice 22's cost .07 cents.
I have a friend that lives in an apartment, he has a SD Dillion mounted on a wooden file cabinet with wheels. It has a cover and is kept in a closet.
No more space than it takes for a set of Golf clubs.

I think, Either you invest in a press, continue to buy factory ammo, or just shoot the 22 portion of the match only.
It all depends on how much you love the sport.

spektr · Post by **spektr** » Thu Oct 31, 2013 2:22 pm

I'm a new guy here, My 45 is a Glock, and I've shot 1 match all 22 cal. I asked the guy running the match if it was a problem to shoot the match all 22, he said no, come on down and have a great time, just remember that you only score in the first 900.

That is the way it is, and as a newcomer, as it should be. I have no expectation of changing the rules just because I choose to not have the equipment to compete. I'm sure I'll get them sometime soon, BUT it is completely unfair to current competitors to restrict them for no real reason......

Isabel1130 · Post by **Isabel1130** » Thu Oct 31, 2013 3:08 pm

Jerry Keefer wrote:
GunRunner wrote:Conventional pistol is a sport thats many decades old, to change it to accommodate the few that cant make time to do what is necessary to compete is ridiculous. I dont compete in NASCAR because i cant afford the cost of a race car, should they make a rule change and let me race my pickup? , but dont ask the bullseye community to change the game cause of your not willing to do what is necessary to be a competitor.
I like this Gunrunner :).. If some of you have not noticed or are unaware...Over on the Bullseye Forum, the New Director of Competitions has thrown around a few proposals to dramatically change the format of Perry/Bullseye Competition in general.. One such proposal is doing away with turning targets, using electronic targets with red and green lights, which score electronically;( and shortening the the National event. I am totally opposed to all of this. It might be worth while for those against changing it to please a few malcontents, to voice our objections on that forum also, or contact our esteemed director..Someone has overlooked how much effort, training, money and equipment "serious competitors" devote to this game. I will never forget the late Col. Al Bacon saying to me when he first entered my shop years ago.... "Bullseye may be a game to some, but I am very serious about this.."
Jerry

I already put in my opinion Jerry, and I agree with you. I don't think Dennis frankly is willing to listen to any of us but he might listen to the pistol committee, and he will have to listen to the NRA. There is at least one person on the committee who I believe understands how pie in the sky this whole idea is.
I wrote a letter to him a month ago when the topic first reared its ugly head on bullseye L.
I think logistics and cost will doom this whole electronic target thing because I just don't see it as being a feasible project.

And I don't see conventional pistol as dying. I think it lost quite a bit when the military and the guard stopped funding it and providing hundreds of supported shooters, and I think the problems of the last few years with participation at Perry are the result of a bad economy, the high price of gas, and the housing situation which the guard has managed to pretty much destroy, for the short term.

GunRunner · Post by **GunRunner** » Thu Oct 31, 2013 4:13 pm

Jerry i have voiced my opinions on the BE forum, im David R there, what concerns me is as slow as things go, here it is november and dennis is still not made a decision as to what will happen, looks to me like another year of bad equipment is in our future for perry.

Isabel1130 · Post by **Isabel1130** » Thu Oct 31, 2013 4:41 pm

GunRunner wrote:Jerry i have voiced my opinions on the BE forum, im David R there, what concerns me is as slow as things go, here it is november and dennis is still not made a decision as to what will happen, looks to me like another year of bad equipment is in our future for perry.

It may not be within Dennis's power to obligate the type of money we are talking about here.

A decision right now, still would not get a bidding process, and a contract in place for electronic equipment to be installed by 2014 or even 2015.

On a system big enough to function at Perry, a lot of range improvements will have to be done first, and a feasibility study.

I hope the NRA is smart enough to not start throwing money at this very shaky idea without doing a lot of groundwork first.

If there is EVER a completely electronic target system at Perry, I am betting 2018 for the earliest it could possibly be installed and running at the National matches.

I think they will find that their best bet is to maintain and fix the current system while they explore the possibility of an upgrade five years down the road.

Please remember the old adage in contracting. "You can have it good, cheap, or fast. Pick any two."

Watching the current debacle unfolding at a national level, with the ACA "should" be enough to convince people that technology is not always the answer to every question or problem.

Freepistol · Post by **Freepistol** » Thu Oct 31, 2013 4:56 pm

GunRunner wrote:Conventional pistol is a sport thats many decades old, to change it to accommodate the few that cant make time to do what is necessary to compete is ridiculous. I dont compete in NASCAR because i cant afford the cost of a race car, should they make a rule change and let me race my pickup? . . . . . . . .

There is a pickup division in NASCAR.

Sa-tevo · Post by **Sa-tevo** » Thu Oct 31, 2013 5:14 pm

One of the better ideas that came up in the Bullseye forums discussion was better posting of upcoming NRA Conventional Pistol events around the country. If it was easier to find a local event we may see more participation.

Isabel1130 · Post by **Isabel1130** » Thu Oct 31, 2013 6:02 pm

Sa-tevo wrote:One of the better ideas that came up in the Bullseye forums discussion was better posting of upcoming NRA Conventional Pistol events around the country. If it was easier to find a local event we may see more participation.

I agree, if we start doing the small things better, the bigger things will become easier.

Hate to use a religious analogy, but we bullseye competitors need to be less like the Amish, and more like the Mormons.
You cant wait for people to come to you. You must spread the joy and the fun of bullseye, by talking it up, and personally recruiting and encouraging new shooters.

Give a free clinic at your local range. Offer to loan a new shooter your backup gun, and/or reloaded ammo if they will come to a match with you.

Encourage your match director to make the first match free for any new shooter.
Serve pizza, or snacks at the matches, and take some breaks so people can talk to their fellow competitors, and network with them.
Introduce new shooters to fellow competitors who live close to them so they can form a car pool.
I look forward to seeing my friends at a match, almost as much as I do the shooting.

Mike M. · Post by **Mike M.** » Thu Oct 31, 2013 7:25 pm

+1 to better posting and to outreach programs. I travel 120 days per year, and frankly, I've shot more BE in California than in my home state of Maryland.

And it's a bear to find matches.

Now, with regard to electronic targets....

I've shot on them in Germany. And it is an outstanding idea, if it can be afforded. No walking down to score, no waiting for statistics. The targets were all hooked up to a central computer, and the instant the relay was over, ALL scores were immediately updated. Don't knock them until you've tried them.

Sa-tevo · Post by **Sa-tevo** » Thu Oct 31, 2013 7:50 pm

Isabel1130 wrote: and more like the Mormons.

No kidding, I pass out B6 and B8 repair centers to anyone who appears interested.

"Hi, I'm Stephen and I'd like you to have this..."

It's a blast seeing someone find out they can keep it on paper at 25 and 50 yards, even if it's a 22.