I compete in pistol events, but I have thought about buying an old .22lr match rifle to shoot in prone position just for fun and maybe in club competitions.
Use being not so serious, I won´t buy brand new €€€€ Anschutz/Walther whatever but some old cheap used rifle.
I don´t know how well these old Finnish rifles are known outside Finland; "Valmet Suomen Leijona" (Finnish Lion) and "Skohan Tikka" but they are available in Finnish gun stores second hand for 180-450€
I have found only one Anschutz (Match 64) rifle in my price range so far but someone has cut it´s barrel and made threads for silencer. Also there are no sights in that rifle.
Do you know these rifles, if I buy for example a "Finnish Lion" what version should I look for?
When buying old rifle, what I should check on the rifle when buying it? For example, are there some signs in the barrel that it is no good anymore?
Buying old .22lr rifle
Moderators: pilkguns, Marcus, m1963, David Levene, Spencer
My first Rifle was a Finnish Lion. The one I had was in what would have been classed an ISU Standard Rifle configuration. The fore end was reasonably deep, but the bottom was parallel to the bore, and not so deep as on say the Anschutz 1807 Std Rifle. I replaced mine with a brand new Anschutz 1813 in 1987, and I'm still using it, well actually my daughter is shooting it now.
What to look for on a second hand rifle, will be much the same as for a pistol. Overall condition is key IMO. If it looks well cared for then it probably was. Muzzle Crown is important, damage to the crown will generally adversely affect accuracy, but the same goes for a pistol of course. I recall that the rear sights on the Finnish Lion did not mount on a std 11mm rail, so make sure that the rifle comes with at least a rear sight, if not a full set.
Alan
What to look for on a second hand rifle, will be much the same as for a pistol. Overall condition is key IMO. If it looks well cared for then it probably was. Muzzle Crown is important, damage to the crown will generally adversely affect accuracy, but the same goes for a pistol of course. I recall that the rear sights on the Finnish Lion did not mount on a std 11mm rail, so make sure that the rifle comes with at least a rear sight, if not a full set.
Alan
JiriK,
yes the Finnish Lion rifles are known outside Finland.
what to look for in a used rifle?
Target rifles are generally in good condition. Unlike sporting or service rifles, your average target rifle isn't dragged around the countryside in rain and snow. Not all shooters maintain their rifles to a standard that is desirable, but rifles are rarely neglected enough to cause long term issues. Stripping the rifle down once you get it home and cleaning it thoroughly is sensible anyway.
In my opinion first impressions count. You want to see a rifle that looks neat and tidy. The barrel and action should be free of rust, except the odd pinprick on an older rifle. Heavy pitting or a brown tinge is not a good sign, as it means the owner was too lazy to wipe the barrel with an oily cloth, so there could be more rust underneath the action, as it is less accessible. Rifles that have been owned by a club are often rusty.
The stock should be reasonably tidy, with no big dents or chips that make it look like it was used as a hammer. Small marks are ok, some can be steamed out (a gunsmith's trick that involves a damp cloth and a clothes iron), or the varnish can be removed and reapplied. If the stock has been altered (i.e. the butt shortened, or the cheekpiece reshaped), the work should look neat and professional; ham-fisted butchery may not affect how it shoots, but it doesn't look nice. What is more important is that there are no cracks at the wrist (the thinnest part of the grip) and around the bedding bolts. Unless you can negotiate a big discount, I would reject a rifle with a cracked stock.
Next check the fit of the action in the stock. Valmet rifles should have a free-floating barrel. If there is any contact between the stock and barrel, accuracy may be inconsistent. The barrel should be level in the stock, and there should be an even gap between the two, at the sides and underneath (several mm wide). If there is any contact, the bedding is probably faulty.
After the external check, ask to separate the barrel and stock to inspect the bedding, where the action sits. The bedding needs to be in good condition for the rifle to shoot well. Danger signs for faulty bedding are shiny, uneven compressed patches (caused by over tightening the bolts), soft patches (overexposure to oil and solvent has made the wood rotten), or damage to the heads of the bedding bolts (indicating overtightening). These can cause the action to become loose. Faulty bedding can be corrected by replacing the bedding with a layer of epoxy compound, as this gives a glove-like fit, and strengthens the stock. However this is not cheap. A stock that is already bedded is a real bonus, as it can improve accuracy.
Next, have a look at the bedding bolts. If the bolt heads are stripped and silvered, the rifle was owned by someone careless and hamfisted; overtightening the bolts can crush the wood, so the barrel eventually becomes slightly loose in the stock. Sometimes when a stock is bedded the bedding bolts will be sleeved with metal/epoxy pillars to prevent damage from over-tightening.
The bolt and breech should be clean, and the bolt should open and close smoothly. It should extract and eject empty cases cleanly. The firing pin should leave a nice deep mark on the case.
The bolt is individually fitted to the action, so check you have the right one; if the rifle was club-owned it's quite possible that the bolts were swapped about in the past. If the bolt is marked with all (or part) of the serial number, the numbers on the bolt should match the serial number on the action. If the numbers don't match, I would be concerned. It's possible to swap bolts, but this is a job for a gunsmith, as guages are required to ensure the headspace (the gap for the case rim) is in spec. If you have access to a set of graduated headspace gauges it's worth using these, as bolts can develop excess headspace if heavily used.
It's difficult to assess the condition of the barrel without some specialist tools. But there are some things you can do. Firstly look at the crown; ask the seller to clean it if you need to get a better look. The crown is very important to accuracy, so you don't want to see nicks, scratches or rust. Barrels can be re-crowned by a gunsmith. If they won't clean it, I would reject the rifle as they may have something to hide.
Then look along the bore. The surface should be bright and shiny. Rust, or rust pitting, will show as dark spots; these will reduce accuracy, and can attract lead fouling. Reject a rusty or rust-pitted barrel outright. High-mileage wear shows as a dull patch, or as a line across the grooves just ahead of the chamber. Depending on the degree of wear, it may be possible to negotiate a discount.
Next ask the seller what the round count is. A gunsmith may not know, but a private seller should have an idea. The fewer shots fired the better, as barrels do wear out. Some barrels last longer than others, but generally after 100,000 rounds groups can open up.
If possible push a cleaning patch through the barrel; this will check for bulges . A bulge is a small loose spot where a squib bullet has become stuck and is knocked free by the next shot; the impact stretches the steel permanently. A patch will feel like it jumps when it meets a bulge. A bulge may also invalidate the proof test (it does in Britain). Some barrels continue to shoot well even with a bulge, others don't; it's not a good risk to take.
I'd expect a rifle to have a rearsight, or the price should be cheap. I don't know how easy it is to get a Valemt rearsight in Finland, but they are very scarce in Britain. Some of the later models (the M65 and M70) do have an 11mm dovetail on the receiver, so you could fit a modern sight. The rearsight should be fairly clean, rust and lots of crud suggest a lack of maintenance. Turn the turrets, they should be smooth, and the eyepeice should visibly move. Older rearsights often have a little slop. If there is an iris eyepiece this is a bonus.
If possible get an experienced club member to give you a second opinion. If buying privately, I'd ask for a test shoot; you probably won't be able to tell if the barrel will shoot 100's at 50m, but it will give you an idea of fit, balance, and reliability.
Which Model?In general I would suggest getting the newest and least used rifle that you can find. Wood stocks can be altered to improve the fit fairly easily, but a poor quality or worn out barrel is very expensive to fix.
yes the Finnish Lion rifles are known outside Finland.
what to look for in a used rifle?
Target rifles are generally in good condition. Unlike sporting or service rifles, your average target rifle isn't dragged around the countryside in rain and snow. Not all shooters maintain their rifles to a standard that is desirable, but rifles are rarely neglected enough to cause long term issues. Stripping the rifle down once you get it home and cleaning it thoroughly is sensible anyway.
In my opinion first impressions count. You want to see a rifle that looks neat and tidy. The barrel and action should be free of rust, except the odd pinprick on an older rifle. Heavy pitting or a brown tinge is not a good sign, as it means the owner was too lazy to wipe the barrel with an oily cloth, so there could be more rust underneath the action, as it is less accessible. Rifles that have been owned by a club are often rusty.
The stock should be reasonably tidy, with no big dents or chips that make it look like it was used as a hammer. Small marks are ok, some can be steamed out (a gunsmith's trick that involves a damp cloth and a clothes iron), or the varnish can be removed and reapplied. If the stock has been altered (i.e. the butt shortened, or the cheekpiece reshaped), the work should look neat and professional; ham-fisted butchery may not affect how it shoots, but it doesn't look nice. What is more important is that there are no cracks at the wrist (the thinnest part of the grip) and around the bedding bolts. Unless you can negotiate a big discount, I would reject a rifle with a cracked stock.
Next check the fit of the action in the stock. Valmet rifles should have a free-floating barrel. If there is any contact between the stock and barrel, accuracy may be inconsistent. The barrel should be level in the stock, and there should be an even gap between the two, at the sides and underneath (several mm wide). If there is any contact, the bedding is probably faulty.
After the external check, ask to separate the barrel and stock to inspect the bedding, where the action sits. The bedding needs to be in good condition for the rifle to shoot well. Danger signs for faulty bedding are shiny, uneven compressed patches (caused by over tightening the bolts), soft patches (overexposure to oil and solvent has made the wood rotten), or damage to the heads of the bedding bolts (indicating overtightening). These can cause the action to become loose. Faulty bedding can be corrected by replacing the bedding with a layer of epoxy compound, as this gives a glove-like fit, and strengthens the stock. However this is not cheap. A stock that is already bedded is a real bonus, as it can improve accuracy.
Next, have a look at the bedding bolts. If the bolt heads are stripped and silvered, the rifle was owned by someone careless and hamfisted; overtightening the bolts can crush the wood, so the barrel eventually becomes slightly loose in the stock. Sometimes when a stock is bedded the bedding bolts will be sleeved with metal/epoxy pillars to prevent damage from over-tightening.
The bolt and breech should be clean, and the bolt should open and close smoothly. It should extract and eject empty cases cleanly. The firing pin should leave a nice deep mark on the case.
The bolt is individually fitted to the action, so check you have the right one; if the rifle was club-owned it's quite possible that the bolts were swapped about in the past. If the bolt is marked with all (or part) of the serial number, the numbers on the bolt should match the serial number on the action. If the numbers don't match, I would be concerned. It's possible to swap bolts, but this is a job for a gunsmith, as guages are required to ensure the headspace (the gap for the case rim) is in spec. If you have access to a set of graduated headspace gauges it's worth using these, as bolts can develop excess headspace if heavily used.
It's difficult to assess the condition of the barrel without some specialist tools. But there are some things you can do. Firstly look at the crown; ask the seller to clean it if you need to get a better look. The crown is very important to accuracy, so you don't want to see nicks, scratches or rust. Barrels can be re-crowned by a gunsmith. If they won't clean it, I would reject the rifle as they may have something to hide.
Then look along the bore. The surface should be bright and shiny. Rust, or rust pitting, will show as dark spots; these will reduce accuracy, and can attract lead fouling. Reject a rusty or rust-pitted barrel outright. High-mileage wear shows as a dull patch, or as a line across the grooves just ahead of the chamber. Depending on the degree of wear, it may be possible to negotiate a discount.
Next ask the seller what the round count is. A gunsmith may not know, but a private seller should have an idea. The fewer shots fired the better, as barrels do wear out. Some barrels last longer than others, but generally after 100,000 rounds groups can open up.
If possible push a cleaning patch through the barrel; this will check for bulges . A bulge is a small loose spot where a squib bullet has become stuck and is knocked free by the next shot; the impact stretches the steel permanently. A patch will feel like it jumps when it meets a bulge. A bulge may also invalidate the proof test (it does in Britain). Some barrels continue to shoot well even with a bulge, others don't; it's not a good risk to take.
I'd expect a rifle to have a rearsight, or the price should be cheap. I don't know how easy it is to get a Valemt rearsight in Finland, but they are very scarce in Britain. Some of the later models (the M65 and M70) do have an 11mm dovetail on the receiver, so you could fit a modern sight. The rearsight should be fairly clean, rust and lots of crud suggest a lack of maintenance. Turn the turrets, they should be smooth, and the eyepeice should visibly move. Older rearsights often have a little slop. If there is an iris eyepiece this is a bonus.
If possible get an experienced club member to give you a second opinion. If buying privately, I'd ask for a test shoot; you probably won't be able to tell if the barrel will shoot 100's at 50m, but it will give you an idea of fit, balance, and reliability.
Which Model?In general I would suggest getting the newest and least used rifle that you can find. Wood stocks can be altered to improve the fit fairly easily, but a poor quality or worn out barrel is very expensive to fix.
Thanks for the tips!
I just visited one gun store.
They have a Valmet Leijona ..Not sure of model, but old and very heavy.
Comes with both sights and some kind of support arm support piece. Very narrow belt, not sure if it was for carrying the rifle or for support in prone shooting.
Also, that rifle had a 10-15cm long hook in the butt piece. Not this rifle but looked very similar: http://www.lahdeniemi.fi/Ekin/0102-Leijona-2494-009.jpg
Free rifle?
I don´t know much about rifle regulations but is this allowed in competition?
I just visited one gun store.
They have a Valmet Leijona ..Not sure of model, but old and very heavy.
Comes with both sights and some kind of support arm support piece. Very narrow belt, not sure if it was for carrying the rifle or for support in prone shooting.
Also, that rifle had a 10-15cm long hook in the butt piece. Not this rifle but looked very similar: http://www.lahdeniemi.fi/Ekin/0102-Leijona-2494-009.jpg
Free rifle?
I don´t know much about rifle regulations but is this allowed in competition?
JiriK,
Yes, the rifle pictured in the Link is a Free rifle. Probably a 1950s model. These rifles are rather large and heavy, but most Free rifles of that age are large and heavy.
The "belt" on the rifle you looked at is probably a sling for supporting the rifle in the prone and kneeling positions. Target rifles are not normally carried for long distances (unlike military or hunting rifles), so a case or the hands are enough. If the "belt" was only attached to the front of the rifle (under the barrel), it is a target sling.
The hook on the butt is allowed for most competitions (certainly all 50m ISSF matches). In prone the hook is used to position the butt accurately and consistently in the shoulder.
Tim
Yes, the rifle pictured in the Link is a Free rifle. Probably a 1950s model. These rifles are rather large and heavy, but most Free rifles of that age are large and heavy.
The "belt" on the rifle you looked at is probably a sling for supporting the rifle in the prone and kneeling positions. Target rifles are not normally carried for long distances (unlike military or hunting rifles), so a case or the hands are enough. If the "belt" was only attached to the front of the rifle (under the barrel), it is a target sling.
The hook on the butt is allowed for most competitions (certainly all 50m ISSF matches). In prone the hook is used to position the butt accurately and consistently in the shoulder.
Tim
What is the difference between these old free rifles and a bit later model, valmet leijona standard?
Found one "standard" model in my price range..
That other rifle I saw at gunstore was -I think- m35 m3 w. 56x serial no.. So that one may have been made in 1939 or 1940..
Found one "standard" model in my price range..
That other rifle I saw at gunstore was -I think- m35 m3 w. 56x serial no.. So that one may have been made in 1939 or 1940..
Last edited by JiriK on Tue Jul 30, 2013 4:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
Jiri,
The difference betweeen a Fee Rifle and a standard rifle is basically weight, and stock design. There are some others, but it's mostly weight and the stock. Typically the Free rifle has a longer and heavier barrel, and a bigger stock with a thumbhole grip and a hookbutt. The standard rifle is lighter (maximum 5kg weight), and the stock is simpler.
I would normally recommend getting the newest (or least fired) rifle that you can get. In this case it would be the Standard.
The differences exist because of the differences in the origin and ethos of the Free Rifle and Standard rifle matches.
The Free Rifle started as a true target rifle. It's called "Free" because there are very few rules regarding the weight and shape. The main rules are the maximum weight (8kg), the calibre (.22Rf for 50m, and 8mm max for 300m), and the maximum dimensions of the butt hook. Beyond these, shooters could build the rifle however they wanted. Set triggers, sculpted anatomical grips, spirit levels, were all allowed.
The standard rifle comes from a different background, that of military shooting. The first Standard rifles were for 300m shooting, and replaced the old Army Rifle match. Standard rifle rules required a 5kg maximum weight, and a basic non-adjustable stock. Handstops, palm-shelves (for standing), butt hooks, and other accesories were not allowed.
Tim
The difference betweeen a Fee Rifle and a standard rifle is basically weight, and stock design. There are some others, but it's mostly weight and the stock. Typically the Free rifle has a longer and heavier barrel, and a bigger stock with a thumbhole grip and a hookbutt. The standard rifle is lighter (maximum 5kg weight), and the stock is simpler.
I would normally recommend getting the newest (or least fired) rifle that you can get. In this case it would be the Standard.
The differences exist because of the differences in the origin and ethos of the Free Rifle and Standard rifle matches.
The Free Rifle started as a true target rifle. It's called "Free" because there are very few rules regarding the weight and shape. The main rules are the maximum weight (8kg), the calibre (.22Rf for 50m, and 8mm max for 300m), and the maximum dimensions of the butt hook. Beyond these, shooters could build the rifle however they wanted. Set triggers, sculpted anatomical grips, spirit levels, were all allowed.
The standard rifle comes from a different background, that of military shooting. The first Standard rifles were for 300m shooting, and replaced the old Army Rifle match. Standard rifle rules required a 5kg maximum weight, and a basic non-adjustable stock. Handstops, palm-shelves (for standing), butt hooks, and other accesories were not allowed.
Tim
Free Rifle also has different match rules.
Finnish and Russion rifles, Tikka, Vostok, are all worth the money.
Our ex .22 topshot had a Vostok and outshoot all our club's anschutzes with it..;)
64 is good as well, as are the 54 based actions.
Dunno what ranges you'll be shoting at?
For shortrange you might opt a sechand Walther KK100. Its not 100% walther hence cheaperbut cause its newer, its ergonomics are far better than the oldskool 18xx and 19xx anschutzes imo
Finnish and Russion rifles, Tikka, Vostok, are all worth the money.
Our ex .22 topshot had a Vostok and outshoot all our club's anschutzes with it..;)
64 is good as well, as are the 54 based actions.
Dunno what ranges you'll be shoting at?
For shortrange you might opt a sechand Walther KK100. Its not 100% walther hence cheaperbut cause its newer, its ergonomics are far better than the oldskool 18xx and 19xx anschutzes imo
Yana,
does the KK100 have more , or better, adjustment than an Anschutz 1807 or 1907. The KK100 was a CZ action (with a new trigger and barrel)slapped into a slightly modified KK200 stock. It was built to meet the same UIT Standard rules as the 1807 and 1907; i.e the cheekpice and butt were only adjustable by wedges or spacers.
The 1807 or 1907 ae hardly oldskool. The 1807 was made between 1980 and '87, the 1907 took over in '87.
does the KK100 have more , or better, adjustment than an Anschutz 1807 or 1907. The KK100 was a CZ action (with a new trigger and barrel)slapped into a slightly modified KK200 stock. It was built to meet the same UIT Standard rules as the 1807 and 1907; i.e the cheekpice and butt were only adjustable by wedges or spacers.
The 1807 or 1907 ae hardly oldskool. The 1807 was made between 1980 and '87, the 1907 took over in '87.
I will be shooting at 50m distance. Our club has indoors shooting range that can be used for 10m, 25m and 50m shooting.
I applied for buying permit almost two weeks ago. Police said it'll take them 4-5 weeks to process my application, so there is no hurry in selecting the rifle to buy. But one senior shooter in the club is selling some of his guns and he has a Valmet Leijona M55 with really low pricetag.... Haven't seen the rifle yet, but knowing the man who is selling it, it should be in pretty good condition.
I applied for buying permit almost two weeks ago. Police said it'll take them 4-5 weeks to process my application, so there is no hurry in selecting the rifle to buy. But one senior shooter in the club is selling some of his guns and he has a Valmet Leijona M55 with really low pricetag.... Haven't seen the rifle yet, but knowing the man who is selling it, it should be in pretty good condition.
I hate to say this but you picked the wrong hobby to take up if you want to pinch pennies.
For example the 200- 450 Euro rifles you suggested are the same price of a good sight set.
Small bore prone indoors at 50 meters is a precision sport. I would suggest you see what others in your club have that could be in your price range. Also keep in mind that the rifle manufacturers have different qualities that they sell. For example an Anschutz model 64 is nowhere nearly as good as any Anschutz 54. Some years ago I bought a Vostok to try in prone and it was the worst rifle I have ever shot. Russia's national team shot consistently well with Vostok's. Clearly a different model than mine. I would suggest an Anschutz 1407 or 1807 or even 1411 or 1811.
For example the 200- 450 Euro rifles you suggested are the same price of a good sight set.
Small bore prone indoors at 50 meters is a precision sport. I would suggest you see what others in your club have that could be in your price range. Also keep in mind that the rifle manufacturers have different qualities that they sell. For example an Anschutz model 64 is nowhere nearly as good as any Anschutz 54. Some years ago I bought a Vostok to try in prone and it was the worst rifle I have ever shot. Russia's national team shot consistently well with Vostok's. Clearly a different model than mine. I would suggest an Anschutz 1407 or 1807 or even 1411 or 1811.
GWSB,
the Finnish Lion was built to commercial standards, and yes compared to a new Anschutz/Walther/FWB it's a dinosaur, but for a pistol shooter (see where Jiri mostly posts) it would do for a start.
By the way, the Sovient team did not use Vostok CM2s. In the 50s and 60s the MTs12, and Strella seemed to be the choice, and later on the Ural 5. Different bolt, different trigger, stock, etc. The CM2 was their clubmans Match 64.
the Finnish Lion was built to commercial standards, and yes compared to a new Anschutz/Walther/FWB it's a dinosaur, but for a pistol shooter (see where Jiri mostly posts) it would do for a start.
By the way, the Sovient team did not use Vostok CM2s. In the 50s and 60s the MTs12, and Strella seemed to be the choice, and later on the Ural 5. Different bolt, different trigger, stock, etc. The CM2 was their clubmans Match 64.
Like all things you can pay a lot or if you're lucky and careful and look around you can get a good setup for a reasonable price.gwsb wrote:I hate to say this but you picked the wrong hobby to take up if you want to pinch pennies.
I too am a pistol shooter who decided to dabble with rifle. I picked up an anschutz 1813 for under 200 (UK) pounds, including sights and a solid case. I'm still shooting that rifle 5 or 6 years later, albeit I upgraded the stock to a system gemini a couple of years back.
I'd be inclined to recommend exactly the same approach to anyone stepping into prone rifle. The benefit of something like an 1813 is that they are common and you can therefore easily get spare parts, and there's a large choice of aftermarket stocks should you wish to upgrade in the future. Also if you decide rifle isn't for you, you can resell the gun for pretty much the same as you bought it for.
Rob.
Rob, that was cheap 1813!
I have found 3 1813s for sale here. 900 to 1100€.
Also saw one Feinwerkbau 2600 being offered for 550€
Buying a good one at the beginning would be better of course, but those Lions are cheap.. the one a clubmate is selling has asking price of 75€.
Seems most of the rifles I´v seen are being sold by gunstores. I´ll put an ad somewhere to see if private sellers have any good offers.
I have found 3 1813s for sale here. 900 to 1100€.
Also saw one Feinwerkbau 2600 being offered for 550€
Buying a good one at the beginning would be better of course, but those Lions are cheap.. the one a clubmate is selling has asking price of 75€.
Seems most of the rifles I´v seen are being sold by gunstores. I´ll put an ad somewhere to see if private sellers have any good offers.
For 75E I don't think you can go far wrong. Buy that gun off him and see how it goes for you. As mentioned above, you can always updgrade or change it later down the line.JiriK wrote:Rob, that was cheap 1813!
I have found 3 1813s for sale here. 900 to 1100€.
Also saw one Feinwerkbau 2600 being offered for 550€
Buying a good one at the beginning would be better of course, but those Lions are cheap.. the one a clubmate is selling has asking price of 75€.
Seems most of the rifles I´v seen are being sold by gunstores. I´ll put an ad somewhere to see if private sellers have any good offers.
And yes I think you're right re. the good price on my 1813 - that was even from a gunstore !
Rob.
Can you identify this rifle?
Anschutz is the manufacturer, and it has 2,4cm thick 680mm long barrel.
Price not bad (if it is still for sale, sellers email went to junkmail folder...)
Still waiting for buying permit. Left application almost 7 weeks ago.
Anschutz is the manufacturer, and it has 2,4cm thick 680mm long barrel.
Price not bad (if it is still for sale, sellers email went to junkmail folder...)
Still waiting for buying permit. Left application almost 7 weeks ago.
- Attachments
-
- Ansu.jpg (42.26 KiB) Viewed 15605 times
Hi Jiri,
The rifle appears to be a 1613 Supermatch. This was the predecessor of the 1813. Date of manufacture is probably 1979 as the bolt handle is curved, but could be '78, or even 1980.
I cannot be definite of the model and date, as a 1979 vintage 1613 barrel and action looks almost identical to an 1813. There are some differences in the bolt, firing pin, and trigger, and of course the markings on the barrel. But these cannot be seen from your photograph. The differences between the two rifles are relevant for spare parts, but not really for shooting.
The stock is certainly the older 1613; an 1813 has a larger triggerguard to accomodate a stack of belville washers under the bolts (the 1813 is also more square in shape). An extra piece has been added to the stock to make it longer and add weight (the butt can be lengthened with a screw thread). The buttplate has been installed upside down.
The rearsight looks to be a little newer than the rifle; I think it is a 6802 from the 1980s or '90s. The 1613 would have come with the 6702 rearsight. This is a small point; the 6702 and 6802 are practically the same. The 6802 has larger adjustment turrets, and smaller screws on the clamp. The rearsight could be a 6702, with 6802 turrets.
The 1613 is a very good rifle; there is a persistent (but incorrect) legend that the X at the end of the serial number means the barrel was selected for superior accuracy. It actually refers to the bolt and trigger, which had been redesigned a few years before. Even if not selected, 1613 rifles have the reputation of shooting well (if in good condition).
Tim
p.s. The barrel should be 69cm long, measured from the face (inside the action) to the muzzle.
The rifle appears to be a 1613 Supermatch. This was the predecessor of the 1813. Date of manufacture is probably 1979 as the bolt handle is curved, but could be '78, or even 1980.
I cannot be definite of the model and date, as a 1979 vintage 1613 barrel and action looks almost identical to an 1813. There are some differences in the bolt, firing pin, and trigger, and of course the markings on the barrel. But these cannot be seen from your photograph. The differences between the two rifles are relevant for spare parts, but not really for shooting.
The stock is certainly the older 1613; an 1813 has a larger triggerguard to accomodate a stack of belville washers under the bolts (the 1813 is also more square in shape). An extra piece has been added to the stock to make it longer and add weight (the butt can be lengthened with a screw thread). The buttplate has been installed upside down.
The rearsight looks to be a little newer than the rifle; I think it is a 6802 from the 1980s or '90s. The 1613 would have come with the 6702 rearsight. This is a small point; the 6702 and 6802 are practically the same. The 6802 has larger adjustment turrets, and smaller screws on the clamp. The rearsight could be a 6702, with 6802 turrets.
The 1613 is a very good rifle; there is a persistent (but incorrect) legend that the X at the end of the serial number means the barrel was selected for superior accuracy. It actually refers to the bolt and trigger, which had been redesigned a few years before. Even if not selected, 1613 rifles have the reputation of shooting well (if in good condition).
Tim
p.s. The barrel should be 69cm long, measured from the face (inside the action) to the muzzle.
Tim, thanks for info.
That rifle has asking price of 250€, so it is a lot more than 75€ for that finnish lion but I think it is still cheap.
If both rifles are in good condition, which one would you recommend me to buy?
I just called the seller. Seems there are no model numbers etc. on the barrel or frame.. Is this normal?
That rifle has asking price of 250€, so it is a lot more than 75€ for that finnish lion but I think it is still cheap.
If both rifles are in good condition, which one would you recommend me to buy?
I just called the seller. Seems there are no model numbers etc. on the barrel or frame.. Is this normal?
Hi Jiri,
first, it seams to me 250 EUR is a real good price for an good Anschutz Super Match like that. Here in Germany the street price for such rifles is normal not under 500 EUR and most of them have then only the Standard stock.
You can watch the German internet auctions site http://www.egun.de for comparing the prices. Most sellers there are serious but sometimes it seems to me, there are also some people out, who are pushing the prices artificial. Some of the sellers there are also willing to sell to other EU states, but beware, there is some paper work required because of the often really crazy and different weapon laws.
Tim S gave as always a really good summery of the rifle. These rifles are normal really sturdy and nearly all of them shoot very well. The only bigger problem could be a worn out or damaged barrel. But this is also seldom and it happens normal only after really heavy use over a long time. There are rifles out which shoot well after 100 000 rounds and more. If you can test the rifle before buying you can push a VFG patch through the barrel. You should than feel a steady retarding force on the hole way thru the barrel without interruptions and this force should also increase a little near the front of the barrel. Although this test is not an absolute proof it is an good indicator.
My personal opinion is on the long run you will be much better with buying an used Anschutz like the shown then with the Lion. The Lion is surely not bad, but you can find easily all spare parts and nearly all modern accessories for an Anschutz and you can also easily find an newer or custom made stock. But the last is not a must, because the stock is not so far away from the newer stocks if it comes to ergonomics and individual adjustment and this is an other point against the Lion. The Anschutz 1X13 Super Match is as jet the most successful match rifle of the world and there must be a reason for. I'm also a longtime owner of an Anschutz 1807/1813 and if it comes especially to prone shooting i prefer the wood stock still against my newer Alu stock from Keppeler, which on the other hand for me works better for 3P.
The reason for the not seen model number on the barrel could be just a communication problem between you and the seller. For rifles like the only unofficially so named '1613' there was no real number on the barrel, only the text 'Super Match 54' or 'Match 54'. Only the newer models like the 1813 had the model number direct on the barrel. But there must be a serial number on the left front side of the action and some proof signs. The two letters near the German eagle sign will give you the coded date of the official proof testing and this is will give you also the approximate building year of the rifle.
An other reason for not shown a number or text on the barrel could be an exchange of the factory barrel towards an custom barrel, but i don't believe that. The shown barrel looks like the normal build in barrel from the factory.
Regards from Germany
Frank
first, it seams to me 250 EUR is a real good price for an good Anschutz Super Match like that. Here in Germany the street price for such rifles is normal not under 500 EUR and most of them have then only the Standard stock.
You can watch the German internet auctions site http://www.egun.de for comparing the prices. Most sellers there are serious but sometimes it seems to me, there are also some people out, who are pushing the prices artificial. Some of the sellers there are also willing to sell to other EU states, but beware, there is some paper work required because of the often really crazy and different weapon laws.
Tim S gave as always a really good summery of the rifle. These rifles are normal really sturdy and nearly all of them shoot very well. The only bigger problem could be a worn out or damaged barrel. But this is also seldom and it happens normal only after really heavy use over a long time. There are rifles out which shoot well after 100 000 rounds and more. If you can test the rifle before buying you can push a VFG patch through the barrel. You should than feel a steady retarding force on the hole way thru the barrel without interruptions and this force should also increase a little near the front of the barrel. Although this test is not an absolute proof it is an good indicator.
My personal opinion is on the long run you will be much better with buying an used Anschutz like the shown then with the Lion. The Lion is surely not bad, but you can find easily all spare parts and nearly all modern accessories for an Anschutz and you can also easily find an newer or custom made stock. But the last is not a must, because the stock is not so far away from the newer stocks if it comes to ergonomics and individual adjustment and this is an other point against the Lion. The Anschutz 1X13 Super Match is as jet the most successful match rifle of the world and there must be a reason for. I'm also a longtime owner of an Anschutz 1807/1813 and if it comes especially to prone shooting i prefer the wood stock still against my newer Alu stock from Keppeler, which on the other hand for me works better for 3P.
The reason for the not seen model number on the barrel could be just a communication problem between you and the seller. For rifles like the only unofficially so named '1613' there was no real number on the barrel, only the text 'Super Match 54' or 'Match 54'. Only the newer models like the 1813 had the model number direct on the barrel. But there must be a serial number on the left front side of the action and some proof signs. The two letters near the German eagle sign will give you the coded date of the official proof testing and this is will give you also the approximate building year of the rifle.
An other reason for not shown a number or text on the barrel could be an exchange of the factory barrel towards an custom barrel, but i don't believe that. The shown barrel looks like the normal build in barrel from the factory.
Regards from Germany
Frank