A small problem about front blades

conradin · Post by **conradin** » Fri Aug 30, 2013 6:09 am

My Morini CM84E has a set of blades of different width. However, a few of them are not totally flat but rather not level. I use a spirit level to test it, and indeed it is not level. Turning the compensator can make it level, but then the blade is not perpendicular.

Awhile ago I sent the blade back to Neal. He checked it over and told me that the blades are fine, and that there was no way Morini could have a machine problem that would cause faulty blades that has an uneven top. He sent the blade back. I double checked and the blades indeed is still not level, on a flat table.

I am at a lost. Usually I paint my front sight white, but this time I decided to tape up the front blade and make it truly level, then either paint the non taped portion white, that was when I still used white blades...which I seldom use now, or the other way around, taped up the blade so that the taped portion is level, then paint the non taped portion white, thus turning the blade into a black blade. When I aim I simply ignore the white top.

My Steyr AP blades are always level, as do my FWB65. I find it strange that Morini made blades that is not perpendicular. I do not want to believe it, and I don't think Neal make a mistake, but the spirit level does not lie. I am utterly confused, and also do not know what to do.

While Neal see no reason for me to return it back to him so he can return it back to Morini since he saw nothing wrong, I also am concerned that even if I sent them back, I will receive blades that have the same problem.

Advice? I don't trust my filing ability because I don't have the right tools. Or should I totally ignore the non level and aim sub 6 anyway, mindful of the unevenness and mentally draw a level line across the blade?

Right now I am using a blade that is level; but it is not the ideal width that I want, because the one that I want and I have is not level.

I don't think it is a stupid question!

David Levene · Post by **David Levene** » Fri Aug 30, 2013 6:31 am

If you are 100% certain that the top of the blade is not parallel with the base, and the importer will not sort it out, then I would suggest emailing Morini and asking their advice.

I wouldn't use a spirit level to check; there are too many possible errors.

I would put the sight between the jaws of a set of vernier (or digital) calipers and check for gaps with a good magnifier.

conradin · Post by **conradin** » Fri Aug 30, 2013 7:20 am

Thank you David, I don't have verniers, but I do have a digital caliper/measurement tool. Should I check with the digital caliper first, and if I still have doubts, I'll ask my machinist friend to check using his verniers?

Thanks, you are a life saver, for months I did not know what to do.

PS. MY spirit level is actually a digitial level. So I am not looking at a bubble but rather digitial LED read out.

David Levene · Post by **David Levene** » Fri Aug 30, 2013 7:39 am

You just need to use any tool that you know has got parallel jaws.

rmca · Post by **rmca** » Fri Aug 30, 2013 9:06 am

Check if the blade is perpendicular by it self or if it gets out of aligment when you screw it to the gun.

See if there are any burs on the bottom of the sight or if it fits in the slot without catching on the sides.

Hope this helps.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » Fri Aug 30, 2013 10:14 am

I was going to suggest that the bottom of the blade slot in the compensator might not be level, but then at the end you state that a narrower blade sits level so I'm not so eager to guess that. Still, it could be that the narrower blade is not parallel with itself in the 'right' way to correct for a crooked slot bottom.

In my opinion the most important thing is that the blade top and sides appear to be square when watching the sight, and that they be perfectly true to the rearsight notch. I understand your frustration. The blade I like for my Baikal 46m did not have parallel faces so I filed the top with the whole pistol clamped in a vise while continuously checking until the blade top was parallel with the rear blade and the vertical planes were square with that. It was only a small change, less than one degree, but the result was much easier to look at without getting uncomfortable. I'd suggest taking the pistol to a local precision machine shop (after calling to confirm that an air pistol is okay to bring in!) And have them put it on a granite slab and check that everything aligns at 90 degree angles where it should. It could easily be that the fixing bolt for the front blade is slightly lifting the blade when tightened, for instance, owing to a slightly misplaced centering detent (I don't know if your pistol sight uses one, just guessing). A good machinist should spot such things easily.

Rover · Post by **Rover** » Fri Aug 30, 2013 3:39 pm

Sounds like a job for a bigger hammer.

Actually, you can pick up a few Swiss files cheap and easy. Try Ace Hardware.

The only problem with using such advanced technology is learning to "hold your mouth right."

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » Fri Aug 30, 2013 3:47 pm

No no no Rover, got to save all your holding mouth right energy for shooting. That's when I hold my mouth right the best. That, and when putting clamps on things. And lifting big things. Okay, so I waste a lot of my mouth energy. Dang. But yeah, a flat Swiss file should do it. Or some 400 grit emery paper wrapped tightly around something very flat. And of course wielded in such a way that one doesn't round over the blade top.

David M · Post by **David M** » Fri Aug 30, 2013 4:04 pm

If the foresight blade is not square on top then the only true way to do it is set up on a on a surface grinder, then reblued.
If the blade is not sitting square on the sight base when compared to the rear sight, then a small strip of tape on the low side bottom of the blade will tilt it back into align.
If it is grossly out you can loosen the rear barrel locating screw and re-align the barrel to the frame.

deadeyedick · Post by **deadeyedick** » Fri Aug 30, 2013 6:55 pm

As a result of how these blades are CNC machined it would be very unlikely that the sight in question is out of square.....however stranger things have happened.
Considering the low cost involved, another option would be to purchase a new sight and put the issue behind you.

Greg Derr · Post by **Greg Derr** » Fri Aug 30, 2013 8:16 pm

Something that small would be hard to check with a spirit level. I would use a surface plate(granite) and height gage with test indicator. If they are not square, any machinist can quickly square them in a mill.

Rover · Post by **Rover** » Fri Aug 30, 2013 10:31 pm

Conradin claims to be a watchmaker. Surely he has the delicate touch to bring things square with a whiff of the file in the manner of the old school gun makers of Europe.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » Fri Aug 30, 2013 10:45 pm

Careful Rover. He's apologized. He's actually said (either privately or publicly, I can't remember) that he much prefers to do repair estimates on watches as it's simply more work than he can handle to do the actual repairs. Used to repair, no longer wants to do that. I found it an odd thought... In my business there's no way on earth one luthier could do a repair estimate then hand it off to another to do the work for that amount. I rather doubt that an auto mechanic would work under those conditions either. But apparently it's different with watch making and repair, or so Conradin's saying. Perhaps if one had a long working relationship with one particular shop then one's repair estimates would be honoured?

But your point is well taken. Anyone who has hand-filed precision parts out of brass or steel to make what can no longer be purchased for a vintage watch will surely have abundantly greater skills with a file than are necessary to file a level surface on a front sight blade. I mean hey, I've done it on a Baikal and on a front sight blade I made for my Pardini K10 (remember when I tried that 1" extended blade like the Koreans were using at the WC matches last year?), so if I can do it, surely Conradin can do it! He makes and restores HARPSICHORDS for crying out loud! And I'm not being even remotely sarcastic here, I'm saying if a violinmaker can do it, so can a watchmaker/harpsichord maker/organ maker/motorcycle racer and whatever else is in his curriculum vitae.

conradin · Post by **conradin** » Fri Aug 30, 2013 11:56 pm

Gerard wrote:He's actually said that he much prefers to do repair estimates on watches as it's simply more work than he can handle to do the actual repairs. Used to repair, no longer wants to do that.

Its my eyesight deterioration. Also cost effectiveness. Charging someone a grand to repair a watch that only worth $100 makes no sense, and only creates confusion, and even hostility, Customer does not understand the work involved. An excellent violin, meanwhile, is cost-effective to repair.

I found it an odd thought... In my business there's no way on earth one luthier could do a repair estimate then hand it off to another to do the work for that amount. ..... honoured?

It is unprofessional to do an appraisal and then do the work. When I mean appraisal I mean working for an auction house. I can also do private appraisal. The appraiser cannot take on the work. It is both a guild rule and unspoken rule. Appraisal also means a total break down of the item, examine every part, and put it back together, proof the genuine part, record every marks including secret signatures and serial numbers, occasionally called up the manufacturer to confirm, and then write a long report about the watch. Appraisal usually is only performed for someone who plan to sell the watch but has no idea about its worth, or history. You seldom do appraisal for a watch that is worth less than 10,000.

The only exception is if you are the only expert of that particular watch. In that case it is call estimation, not appraisal. You need to provide proof that indeed you are either authorized, or has the proper credentials to do the work.

But your point is well taken. Anyone who has hand-filed precision parts out of brass or steel to make what can no longer be purchased for a vintage watch will surely have abundantly greater skills with a file than are necessary to file a level surface on a front sight blade. I mean hey, I've done it on a Baikal and on a front sight blade I made for my Pardini K10 (remember when I tried that 1" extended blade like the Koreans were using at the WC matches last year?), so if I can do it, surely Conradin can do it! He makes and restores HARPSICHORDS for crying out loud! And I'm not being even remotely sarcastic here, I'm saying if a violinmaker can do it, so can a watchmaker/harpsichord maker/organ maker/motorcycle racer and whatever else is in his curriculum vitae.

We do not have the equipment to do that kind of filing, we usually work with very fine parts, and the blade is too hard, or the file too delicate. When we have to deal with hard parts such as stainless steel, that's when the lathe comes in, and lathe work cannot do filing except for anything that is cylindrical. Watch parts seldom need filing, other than if you make a part from scratch through lathing.

Harpsichord and organ making is different, its all wood work. I only deal with tracker organ, so again it is all wood, no metal. Since my disability, I have sold all my motorcycle related repair tools. They are the closest tools that I have to do the sort of filing I can do for the front blade, that is because hand filing is needed for tuning, such as engine air intake, sometimes known as porting.

A little off topic, but hope you understand why I am unable to do the work but rather would like to ask a professional, or a competent colleague competitor to do the work, if needed. I have absolute trust in both of you guys to do the work. But sending bad sights to Morini is still the best choice. If I have already paid that much money for the blades, who do I need to take time, or ask a professional, to work on it?

Hope my explanation helps.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » Sat Aug 31, 2013 12:15 am

Indeed this does clarify. I misunderstood what you had said about appraisals/estimates. I too write appraisals, or valuations, when asked to do so, in aid of instrument owners being able to acquire insurance for these objects. And it is of course very little related to a repair estimate or appraisal. Your situation seems to make it plain that hiring someone to do the work or getting Morini to repair/replace the sight blade makes more sense. Good luck with this. I would find it frustrating to be without the use of my front sight for some weeks and just take a file to it, but to each their own situation.

deadeyedick · Post by **deadeyedick** » Sat Aug 31, 2013 12:18 am

I think the matter would be better handled if you took the sight post to an engineering facility and had them check for squareness, and if needed surface grind the bottom and top surfaces parallel. I would not imagine the expense to be great, and the reduction in anxiety and down time that this is causing would surely offset the expense.

conradin · Post by **conradin** » Sat Aug 31, 2013 12:28 am

Dear friend,

Yes, I thought about that route too. But here in the SF Bay Area a machine shop rental rate is about $90 dollars per hour, in regardless of what machine you use or how much actual time you spend; with the exception of the high end machine which will cost more. As for gun smith we have a huge logjam right now locally, it will take forever for a qualified gunsmith here to work on your item. $90 is worth more than the blade itself.

Most engineering places charge even more.

There are more than one blade that has this problem right now, so there is also an economic factor at play for me.

Thank you for your suggestion.

One of the reasons why I bring it up now finally is that my Northern California FP PTO season is now over. There is one PTO left but it is too far away for me to travel so I am done for the year. I have time to sit down and devise a plan to deal with the problem at hand. Not now right away but at least get some ideas first before gathering finance or practice filing technique before doing the job.

SMC · Post by **SMC** » Sat Aug 31, 2013 2:09 pm

When I purchased my Morini air pistol I ordered an additional front sight that has a width that I prefer. When a fellow competitor and good friend tried my new gun he ordered one for himself and also ordered an optional width front sight.

While my front sight blades were perfect, his extra front sight was shorter than it should have been. He exchanged the front sight and resolved the problem.

The point is that sometimes quality control isn't perfect. Exchanging or replacing the front sight blade isn't that expensive.

Regards,

Steve

David M · Post by **David M** » Sat Aug 31, 2013 5:05 pm

For the Morini air pistol depending on which model sight mount/ compensator you have fitted you need different height foresights.

Rover · Post by **Rover** » Sat Aug 31, 2013 7:26 pm

"Its my eyesight deterioration." (sic), Conradin says.

Do mean you can't shoot, you can't make the most modest of repairs, and you STILL haven't gone to the eye doctor I recommended?