Question about jackets and EC

[BigAl]

So the ISSF rules for the shooting jacket require an overlap of the button/button hole of 75 mm when a 6 N force is applied with the specified measuring tool. The rules also allow for a zip closure of the jacket, in this case how is the overlap measured? There not being a button/button hole to apply the tool to?

Alan

[dontshootcritters]

You wont be allowed to have a zip for closing the jacket

[RobinC]

First of all its 70 mm, and how do they measure it? With great difficuly!

Although if any started appearing at ISSF international meetings they would soon start building a machine to measure it, and then write a page of unintelligble script as to how to test it, but if it failed the test it would be a pig to adjust!

[RobinC]

You wont be allowed to have a zip for closing the jacket

The rules say you can.

Rule 7.5.4.2
"Closure of the jacket must be by non adjustable means e.g. buttons or zippers."

[FrankD]

Hi all,

the first sentence with the zipper is a little sloppy. A zipper is only allowed at the right shoulder of a right hand shooter. For closing the front of the jacket only 5 buttons and holes are allowed. The following rule explains this.

Rule 7.5.4.3 ISSF Rule Book 2013 First Print

All straps, laces, bindings, seams, stitching or devices which may be construed as artificial support are prohibited. However it is permitted to have one (1) zipper or not more than two (2) straps to take up loose material in the area of the shoulder pad (see Jacket Table). No other zipper or other closing or tightening device is permitted other than those specified in these Rules and Diagrams.


Regards

Frank

[RobStubbs]

You wont be allowed to have a zip for closing the jacket

The rules say you can.

Rule 7.5.4.2
"Closure of the jacket must be by non adjustable means e.g. buttons or zippers."

I'm with Robin, the rules clearly state zips are permitted.

Rob.

[Grzegorz]

Computer sais no... ;-)

[FrankD]

Hihi,

now we have a 3:3 for the All England team against the world team selection from New Zealand, Poland and Germany.

Maybe our friend conradin should explain the rules. I'm sure, he knows it better. ;-)


Regards

Frank

[jhmartin]

The rules say you can.

Rule 7.5.4.2
"Closure of the jacket must be by non adjustable means e.g. buttons or zippers."

Kinda gotta go w/ Robin here, but I think that this may be a typo or bad proofing by the ISSF.

A question here ... During normal EC the rule for the tool is 6-8 Newtons.
How can ISSF be so wishy-washy here?

If a competitor goes to one WC and has a jacket just pass with an 8N gauge, and then goes to the next that uses a 6N gauge, if tested post-comp that jacket closure will probably fail with the 6N gauge .....

[BigAl]

A question here ... During normal EC the rule for the tool is 6-8 Newtons.
How can ISSF be so wishy-washy here?

If a competitor goes to one WC and has a jacket just pass with an 8N gauge, and then goes to the next that uses a 6N gauge, if tested post-comp that jacket closure will probably fail with the 6N gauge .....

As I understood the rule for the measuring device it should initially be set to 6 N, but if the test fails it should be repeated at 8 N. Given the way that the tool has deformed the button holes on my daughters jacket, I'm glad it was only 6 N that has been used on it. I'm not so worried about the differences at different WC level championships with completely different Jury and EC members, but at most matches here in the UK it is the same set of people running EC, and as they are all volunteers doing a difficult job that is great, because otherwise we would have no matches. But it can be a little disconcerting when the same person that has no issues with your equipment at one competition, but 6 weeks later at another match finds problems with that same equipment. But that is drifting away from my original question. I had hoped that maybe someone who was qualified for ISSF EC might see this.

Alan

[FrankD]

Rule 7.5.4.2 says ... with a tension of 6.0 kg to 8.0 kg, not Newton. Also sloppy if it comes to physical units, but on the other hand more understandable for most people.

But this rule is also a proof for only allowing buttons and button holes. If you have a zipper in front of your jacket then measurement of the overlap as described in the rule book isn't possible. A zipper has no buttons and holes.

Rule 7.5.4.3 says also the jacket picture in the rule book is part of the rules, so many judges will tell you, this picture shows only buttons and holes in front of the jacket, so only buttons are allowed there. The picture shows and names also the only allowed position for using a zipper.


I will spend a beer to all of you, if a static rifle shooter (not running target or so) will be allowed at this time to start in an official ISSF match like a world cup or higher with an zipper for closing the front of his shooting jacket.

Time ago there was one international shooter (French?) who had the buttons on the inner side of his jacked and not visible on the outer side and i know there was some discussion about that. And have you seen, the Indian shooter Gagan Narang uses some kind of a chain or so (and of course only buttons and holes) to close his jacket, probably to fulfill this overlap rule.


But there is an easy solution for all this problems. Don't use any buttons (or zippers) there. Some prone only shooters do that and they have no problems with the clothing control.



Regards

Frank

[dontshootcritters]

Cant remember seeing anyone at the finals or WC's in a jacket that was zipped up!!
Problem solved.

[Tim S]

Cant remember seeing anyone at the finals or WC's in a jacket that was zipped up!!
Problem solved.

No quite.

Zip-front jackets are often seen in Britain. Although no longer available, Andrew Tucker jackets are widely used amongst UK club shooters, and as club jackets. Most Tucker jackets are zip fastening.

I think the question was asked with new/junior shooters attending domestic ISSF-rules matches in mind, rather than International comps.

[RobinC]

Rarely for an ISSF rule, this one is actualy clear (so it must be a mistake!) it clearly states "buttons or zipper" a zipper could not be failed.

The one zipper or two staps refered under rule 7.5.4.3 is for tightening which could be construed as artificial support , not closure.

The final part of 7.5.4.3 refers " no other zipper or other closing or tightening device is permitted other than those specified in these rules and diagrams." The closure zipper instead of buttons is permitted as it is specified in 7.5.4.2.
The fact that no one currently uses them now is irrelavent, and there would be no advantage in going back to them, they are more difficult to get a good fit as a zip must be in line, so for any one other than a straight up and down figure it would be a poor fit, and if they did become too tight its a big job to alter.
I still have my old soft leather UIT jacket with middle third zip and actualy quite like it for prone but its not even close to a 70 mm overlap, must have shrunk over the years!.

[BigAl]

I still have my old soft leather UIT jacket with middle third zip and actualy quite like it for prone but its not even close to a 70 mm overlap, must have shrunk over the years!.

Not nearly as much as my old Sauer made to measure UIT jacket from 1990. That has buttons down the front and a zip at the shoulder though.

Alan

[FrankD]

Hi all,

there is a difference between the the German versions of the last ISSF rule books and the English versions and our German DSB rule book follows the German version of the ISSF rule book.


7.4.7.3 ISSF Rule Book 2009

No other zipper or other closing or tightening device is permitted other than those specified in these Rules and Diagrams.


7.5.4.3 ISSF Rule Book 2013

No other zipper or other closing or tightening device is permitted other than those specified in these Rules and Diagrams.



7.4.7.3 ISSF Rule Book 2009 German Edition

Außer an den in dieser Regel und in den Abbildungen angeführten Stellen ist keinerlei Reißverschluss oder andere Vorrichtung zum Schließen oder Festziehen erlaubt.


1.0.2.3.3 German DSB Sportordnung 2009

Außer an den in dieser Regel und in den Abbildungen angeführten Stellen ist keinerlei Reißverschluss und auch keine andere Vorrichtung zum Schließen oder Festziehen erlaubt.


The English versions say 'these Rules', the German versions say 'dieser Regel'. The first is plural, the second singular. If only that single rule, which explains the shoulder zipper, is binding, then no other zippers are allowed. If also the first rule is binding for this point, then a zipper may also allowed for front closing.

But i'm sure, this is only a sloppy translation or a mistake. If the the ISSF would allowing zippers in front of the jackets, they won't draw this pictures in the rule books.

For our German national matches only the DSB Rule Book is binding.


Regards

Frank

[RobinC]

Rule 1.21.1
English is the permanant official language. The constitution and all regulations, rules and legal or official comunications must be published in the English language. the resolution of disputes must be conducted in the English language.

English is the official language, German is a translation, irrespective of the nationality of the writer.
Frank, how can you suggest that the ISSF would make mistakes or have sloppy translation when we all know they are perfect and always fully consult before changing rules, and then always print them un ambigously.

So plural it is and Zips are in!

Have fun and good shooting
Robin

[RobinC]

If the the ISSF would allowing zippers in front of the jackets, they won't draw this pictures in the rule books.

Regards

Frank

The picture in the ISSF rule book for buttplates is a representation of an old Anschutz, and that is now illegal under the 25 mm top curve rule!

[FrankD]

Hi Robin,

there is one 'dirty' secret, if it comes to ISSF rifle rules.

The real native language is Bavarian, not German. And the first trouble begins often, if they try to translate that to the German language. Translating the German then to English is the more easy part. ;-)


By the way, this ever changing the butt plate and hook rules is an other great story and it shows so much wisdom. For prone i use a Keppeler butt plate without the hook. It fits perfect for me and now i'm also in trouble and there is no easy way without a file or flex to change this. :-(

Last point: The picture in the new ISSF rule book with this butt plate shows a slightly modified or fantasy Anschutz butt plate. The original was different and ... also crap for most shooters. It was universal, it fits no one. ;-)

Nothing is easy, never!


Regards and always good shooting

Frank

[David Levene]

But i'm sure, this is only a sloppy translation or a mistake. If the the ISSF would allowing zippers in front of the jackets, they won't draw this pictures in the rule books.

If it is then it goes back at least to 1997, and possibly further. I'd be surprised if such a major "mistake" (which I doubt it is) would be allowed to be repeated though 4 major revisions and many reprints.

The real native language is Bavarian, not German. And the first trouble begins often, if they try to translate that to the German language. Translating the German then to English is the more easy part.

It doesn't really matter what language the rules start out in, it's the English language ones that are discussed, corrected and approved by the various parts of the ISSF.