One chance only...?

[conradin]

Just a hypothetical question, because people will always say things like each pistol is different...it is the shooter, not the pellet, etc., very true in 95% of the case.

Say I give you one of the best APs in your hand that you know nothing about. (LP10E, CM182Ei, LP400 Alu 3D, K10, MGH1H, or P44; or if you know them all including CO2, I'll find an old Soviet pistol such as the IZH 33.), then several cans from different production batches of pellets of your choice (brand, grade, head size, grain, and even the head shape of slightly conical or flat wad cutter). You are allowed to pick one pellet from any can after examination of all of them. No shaping and seating tool is allowed to tinker with that pellet.

You will now allowed to make ONE shot with that pellet within 75 seconds. Sius target system. Nothing but "10.9"; as if your life depends on it.

What brand, grade, head size, grain, head shape, etc would you choose?

For the record I would not know the answer, but maybe some of you have use enough brands and grades, etc, to say "I will only choose "x" pellet and nothing else, as if I were in a duel", or regularly shooting at high 580s to look for that extra point or two, will know what is the best risk-calculated choice.

[bpscCheney]

Alfa Proj Sport because I'm familiar with it, and H&N Match Pistol pellets because I know that's what it likes to eat. I'm starting to feel like Rover, favoring CO2 and all that 'out dated technology' ;)

[rmca]

What brand, grade, head size, grain, head shape, etc would you choose?

Steyr LP10 and any decent pellet will do.

I get your question, but it's not that answer you seek.
You will only start improving your shooting when you stop thinking about your equipment and everything else, and start focusing on yourself.
You are the one doing the points, not the gun nor the pellets. If you leave them on the bench at the start of a match and go for a coffee, do you end the match with 600? Because all of the guns you mentioned plus any decent pellets will do that from a rest... But they still need someone to pull the trigger.
It is frustrating sometimes, but it is the right and only way to improve yourself in this sport.
It comes to a point where your scores only depend on the amount of confidence you bring to the line.

Hope this helps

[David Levene]

What a "strange" question.

With a gun you know nothing about, choice of pellet is the least of your problems.

You'd probably want to go for one of the higher quality pellets purely for the reason that they are more likely to fly straight. Other than that it's pure chance.

[Gerard]

I've been shooting with a Pardini K12 for a couple of weeks after about 14 months with a K10, and as I'm seeing a consistent reduction in my group sizes with the pistol I have to say that both the improved trigger and the recoil absorber are significant factors in allowing me to hold well through and after the shot. Not having shot a Steyr and only having fired a couple of shots through a Morini I can't say whether these would offer similar improvement, only that the K12 is making it significantly easier for me to shoot 10's. Once warmed up I'm not able to shoot longer strings of holes overlapping each other on paper. So for me, in this very personal sort of question about equipment, the choice is obvious. I don't happen to like the appearance of the Steyr and I'm not fond of the idea of an electronic trigger so there's not a lot left to think about in terms of equipment.

As for the pellet choice, I don't think it matters much beyond a certain quality level. Just had a couple of sleeves of new-to-me pellets arrive and both seem more than adequately accurate. I'd been using RWS Hobby pellets for the past couple of sleeves only because they are the easiest to find locally. Now I find the 4.49mm JSB SCHaK and the 4.49mm H&N Finale Match both fit more easily into the breech of the K12, where the Hobby pellets needed forcing and left tiny shavings, building up and needing to be brushed out of the breech seal frequently. Seems the cone was shearing lead off the skirts... not so with the JSB or H&N. The cost is a bit higher but it seems worthwhile at about $11/tin to get the more appropriate pellets which actually fit and don't make a mess of the seal. But as Rover never tires of saying, and I agree for the most part, the group sizes aren't terribly different if at all between any of the decently consistently made pellets. I actually found the RWS Basic more than adequate in clamped tests, just can't find a local supplier any more. So I doubt the pellet question is terribly significant. If I start shooting 590 or better perhaps I'll start spending $15/tin or more... or not.

From these couple of targets shot at the club this Monday which are similar to how I'm shooting at home with the K12 it's obvious I need to concentrate more on consistency in triggering than about pellet choices. Once my attention is remaining through every single shot, not just most shots, it seems I'll be able to shoot 95/100 or better most of the time. Doing that won't take laser-like accuracy of equipment and pellets, it'll take not yanking the trigger in various directions because I still hold slightly too long and 'cling' to the shot a couple of times during most groups of 10 shots. I'm not an elite shooter obviously, but doubt that many elite shooters worry too much about pellet choice. It's 10 metres. At hunting distances of double that or much further, individual ballistic behaviour of various pellet brands starts to become more relevant. Not so in AP competition. Most pellets will leave a 6mm or smaller hole in the inner 10 area when shot through any of a dozen top match pistols held in a vise. Worrying about pellet precision or particular pistol brand seems to be a bit distracting from where focus should more rightly be placed; training.

[David Levene]

BpscCheney ,rmca and Gerard, according to the original question you don't get to choose the pistol, or at least not if you know anything about it.

You only get to choose the pellet.

That's why it's so "strange" (or should I say pointless).

[Gerard]

Sorry David, I see what you mean. Sidetracked myself. Re-reading the question I guess the latter part of my response still stands. Basically it doesn't much matter so long as the pellet you choose is from a known-consistent maker and of a decent grade. The barrel shapes the skirt, not the manufacturer. Pellet skirts are profoundly different from the instant they begin travelling down the barrel and the muzzle takes care of the last of that cutting/bending of the skirt. And that skirt shape, and to a smaller extent the head shape also defined by the barrel/rifling, has more to do with the consistency of flight of the pellet than anything beyond the basics of making a pellet of consistent mass and shape aside from the perimeter. If one were to pick a pellet of significantly different mass or shape compared to the one which was used in sighting in the pistol, then expecting a 10.9 would seem foolish. Every pistol needs to be sighted in with a specific projectile. The stipulation regarding shaping/seating tools doesn't seem relevant, unless the pellet you picked was significantly under-sized for a given barrel in which case the point of impact would be lower on the paper. Similarly if the pellet were significantly over-sized compared to that used in setting the pistol sights it would seem likely that the result would not be a 10.9. I just don't think the question is realistic at all.

[brent375hh]

That is like asking who would you bet on if you went to a cage match with Chuck Norris against all of the Beatles when they were still all living.

[rmca]

BpscCheney ,rmca and Gerard, according to the original question you don't get to choose the pistol, or at least not if you know anything about it.

You only get to choose the pellet.

That's why it's so "strange" (or should I say pointless).

Even put like that (and it is pointless), my answer still makes sense.
Stop worrying about your equipment.

YOU (like we all) ARE THE VARIABLE IN A MATCH NOT THE GUN NOR THE PELLETS! THEY CAN DO A PERFECT 600, WE (Humans) CAN'T! (At least yet...)

The sooner you realise this, the closer you are to the path of improving your scores. I really mean this...

If you read my first couple of post where, you'll find I was in a "ditch" in my shooting. Then I asked and listen to the advice given, and started looking at this in a completely different way. Guess what happened to my scores?

Hope this helps

[David Levene]

The sooner you realise this, the closer you are to the path of improving your scores. I really mean this...

I just hope you realise that the original post wasn't from me.

[rmca]

Yes I did David... only the first sentence was meant for you. Should have made it more clearly.

The rest is meant for conradin.

[jliston48]

Quoting Monty Python, "This is silly!"

Two thoughts occur to me:

1. This could well be the question that Grasshopper (Kwai Chang Caine) asks his Master during an episode of Kung Fu - after which the master would provide a thoughtful and philosophical response (which I don't have).

2. How many practice pellets could you have fired instead of asking such an irrelevant, hypothetical question.

Just remembered, I should be practicing - I've just wasted 10 shots answering this!

[conradin]

It is just a hypothetical question. We all know that it is the shooter, not the pistol; it is the shooter and the pistol. not the pellets. It also depends whether the pistol likes the pellets, etc. The difference is minute, and usually take a bunch of batch testing to find out an answer that is irrelevant to 90% of the people here. Even if you find the right one, you also need to find the batch...Unless you are shooting at 580s, probably it does not matter.

But this hypothetical question does have a purpose. The purpose is simple: Why do people spent so much money buying extremely expensive pellets of a famous brand, while someone can do better using the lowest grade Gamo pellets? Why I do personally like RWS Meisterkugeln even though RWS Hobby can do the same job while almost all the world class competitors who use RWS prefer R-10? Why did Beeman recommended H&N for its FWB65, instead of its own Beeman brand pellets? Is it really worth it to pay $47 for 500 JSB Premium pellets? Why not just pay $4.59 for Daisy Precision Max .177 Cal, 7.8 Grains, Wadcutter (500 per can) if indeed it is the shooter that matters? If I were to give you an IZH33, will you purchase the brand that you think works well with all the IZH stuff? If If were to give you a FWB2, will you be choosing the brand and grade you thought work well with your friend's FWB102? Will you just find something random and unheard of, such as SAG's FHB Black flat pellets, and think it will work just the same (a pellet is a pellet right)?
Hence the question, that you only have one choice and one chance. Make the decision, then dive in and look for that perfect pellet from the batches that I can give you, and shoot it with a type of airgun that you know little about. If you ended up 10.8, will you blame the pellet, or will you blame yourself, and if it is the pellet, how do you explain it?

[David Levene]

If you ended up 10.8, will you blame the pellet, or will you blame yourself, and if it is the pellet, how do you explain it?

Too many variables and not enough data.

The only things you can blame are the fact that you haven't spent enough time training with that gun and pellets you know are suitable and, of course, lack of skill.

[David Levene]

Why do people spent so much money buying extremely expensive pellets of a famous brand, while someone can do better using the lowest grade Gamo pellets?

If that question was clear then I suspect it would be slightly (but only just) more sensible than the original question.

If you mean "Why do people buy expensive pellets when other people can score higher than them whilst using cheap pellets" then, assuming equal quality guns, the difference must be down to the shooters' performance (what a surprise). Imagine how much lower the first shooter's scores could be if he used the cheap pellets. The difference could be the pellet quality/suitability or it could be "between the ears". Either way, a reduction in score is a reduction in score.

If you mean "someone can do better with the cheapest pellets than they can with expensive ones" then they must have been lucky to find a batch of cheapos that matched their gun or they haven't yet found a batch of expensive pellets that match their gun.

I would suspect that the performance difference between really cheap pellets and expensive ones would be quite noticeable. The performance difference between mid-range and expensive would be less noticeable.

[bpscCheney]

I know that Feinwerkbau uses R-10s for their ARs and judging by the rather lopsided hole that is in my test target I'd say my gun doesn't like that lot/headsize/batch/brand w/e to me I do not trust the RWS R-10s because I have seen what they do in my rifle, but that's not to say that all R-10s shoot that way in my rifle.

What I'm trying to get at in a very roundabout way is that YOU need to be confident in your equipment. I have the utmost confidence in H&N Match Pistol to shoot out of my FWB 700 so that's what I use. Even if the groups are the same I still trust them more and psychologically this allows me to feel more confident that a shot that isn't a ten must have come from me not the pellet.

IMHO it's all about confidence.

[mctrucky]

I've got about 20,000 of the most expensive pellets available - I know they group well with 20 shot groups being shot before settling on specific batches. I have absolute confidence in them, and I don't have that with other high end pellets, so I have one less thing to think about on the firing line.

Now, let's get some perspective - these pellets cost about half what the cheapest .22 rimfire ammo costs. The term 'expensive' hardly applies to the equipment used in our sport, and is insignificant compared with travel and accommodation costs to attend competition. So that begs the question - why use cheap pellets if there is ANY question that they might not give perfect results?

[Rover]

"why use cheap pellets if there is ANY question that they might not give perfect results? "

Because to almost every shooter on here, to quote Scott Pilkington on the subject, "it just won't matter" (especially to Conradin).

This is also my opinion, assuming you are not using some absolute crap pellets.

BTW Mr. C is using Meisterkugeln because he "likes" them? WTF? And to further educate him: Beeman pellets are (or were) H&N pellets. Beeman also sold out to some worthless turds, so no hope of any wisdom from on high there.

[dschaller]

Conradin,

Since I have seen two lots of the same brand, same weight, same size top quality pellets shot significantly different groups in my gun, I say your question is pointless. Each gun is different, but realistically, unless you can shoot 580 or better, almost any top target brand in any quality match air pistol shoots way better than you do. This is one of the benefits of pistol shooting compared to rifle shooting - if you don't shoot a perfect (ie 600 not decimal 654.0) score, the fault is yours, not the equipment!

As for shooting a 10.9, realize that almost all target air pistol sights adjust about 4 clicks per ring, or about 2mm. That means if you shoot a "perfectly aligned" shot that is 1mm to the left, then you can not adjust your sights so that another perfect shot is any closer to the center of the target. One click would move the point of impact to 1mm on the other side of center. Not positive what the decimal score for 1mm off center is (think it would be 10.8), but there is no guarantee you can shoot a 10.9 with a perfect gun and pellet, perfectly aimed.

[conradin]

Part of the condition of this question is that you can spend all your time picking that single pellet from a whole batch of the one brand/grade/type that you chose. So whether you pick the Daisy Precision Max (cheapest possible) or a mystery brand like SAG FHB Black flat pellets, you can sit on a table all day and examine every single pellet to pick one to use. So does that mean the answer, again, is "it does not matter"? I use R-10 a lot, and even then I can find bad pellets a couple of times in a can.

So is it down to confidence of your skill, confidence that you pick the right pellet from the lot after examination, and confidence of your skill to adapt to using a pistol that you have not used before?

If I absolutely have to answer this "challenge" myself, then I would be given a IZH-46M. I have neither used an SSP, nor any IZH air pistol before. But since I use H&N as recommended by Dr. Beeman himself on the FWB65, I would choose H&N Finale Match 4.5mm. I am confidant that the quality control is good enough that I do not need to ask for multiple cans from different batches, and I will only need one can from random, then carefully examine them and then pick one..perfect head, perfect skirt, etc.